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Now that all factions only have about 4 ships for tournaments...

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It's not about new/old players.  It's about new/old ships.

X-Wing dies if FFG don't have an OP structure that drives people into buying the new ships and factions.  That's the bottom line.  Anybody who bought the conversion kits and wants to be able to just go ahead and play with those for the next two years is AND ALWAYS WAS kidding themselves that they'd be allowed to do that, because that's how you kill X-Wing stone dead.

Edited by SOTL

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8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

It's not about new/old players.  It's about new/old ships.

X-Wing dies if FFG don't have an OP structure that drives people into buying the new ships and factions.  That's the bottom line.  Anybody who bought the conversion kits and wants to be able to just go ahead and play with those for the next two years is AND ALWAYS WAS kidding themselves that they'd be allowed to do that, because that's how you kill X-Wing stone dead.

Exactly. The same idea.

On 12/22/2018 at 11:52 PM, GreenDragoon said:

if FFG is interested in a healthy community they have to push hyperspace. The extended format is an olive branch, a compromise with 1.0 players.

That we got conversion kits and an official extended format is a bonus, not a baseline.

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

It's not about new/old players.  It's about new/old ships.

X-Wing dies if FFG don't have an OP structure that drives people into buying the new ships and factions.  That's the bottom line.  Anybody who bought the conversion kits and wants to be able to just go ahead and play with those for the next two years is AND ALWAYS WAS kidding themselves that they'd be allowed to do that, because that's how you kill X-Wing stone dead.

Additionally, if you're somebody who no longer wants to keep buying FFG's products but play only with what they have (1.0 stuff + conversion kits) you're no longer part of the target audience, so the company is right to no longer care about what you want, because they're not getting more money off you either way. 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Exactly. The same idea.

That we got conversion kits and an official extended format is a bonus, not a baseline.

On the other hand, FFG is threading on thin ice here. Most people bought conversion kits expecting they will be able to use them to play X-wing in FFG events. If that turns out to not be the case 6 months down the line or whenever (if the Extended events end up being few and far apart), these guys will feel cheated and start badmouthing the game. If said badmouthing reaches a certain critical mass, it will seriously hurt the game. 

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13 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Most people bought conversion kits expecting they will be able to use them to play X-wing in FFG events. If that turns out to not be the case 6 months down the line or whenever (if the Extended events end up being few and far apart), these guys will feel cheated and start badmouthing the game.

If.

but that didn't stop 'these guys' so far, did it?

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15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

If.

but that didn't stop 'these guys' so far, did it?

I think what we currently have is nothing compared to the shitstorm that's going to happen once people's fears are actually confirmed. 

 

FFG needs to push people into continuously buying new product, I think that much is clear to everybody. The way I see it, they have only 2 ways of doing that:

 

- Power creep, aka what they did in 1.0

- Rotation, aka what they're doing with Hyperspace. 

 

Either would alienate some people. The key IMO is whether FFG can do it without alienating enough people for the game to start dying. 

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I don't get where the hate for the hyperspace format comes from.... I mean; I get that people are annoyed because they can't use all their ships in hyperspace & because hyperspace is being pushed as a relevant tournament format.

 

But it's important to look at it like this:

Hyperspace is necessary for the game to grow.

Yeah, that's right: we need the hyperspace format. Have you tried to play first order or resistance against one of the 3 core factions in extended? It's not really very close. With equally skilled players the old factions have so much more in the way of options that they can dominate the newer factions pretty well.

It's going to be the same for the clone wars factions when they launch; they wouldn't be able to compete effectively because they haven't been around as long & don't have as much stuff.

And now I'd like to introduce you to the path the new player (yes, the player that never played 1.0 - because they are how this game grows and thrives).

To play hyperspace they must buy a core set, then they must buy ship packs for their chosen faction.

To play extended they must buy a core set, then buy a conversion kit for their chosen faction, then go hunting on amazon/ebay/wherever for old or 2nd hand copies of the ships that ffg hasn't gotten around to reprinting yet.

The latter of these two is an unacceptably convoluted and costly route into the game for a newcomer.

 

Tldr: tournament formats need to be accessible for people who are new to the game since 2.0. Hyperspace is, extended is not. Without new players the game will wither and die. We do not want this to happen.

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4 hours ago, LordBlades said:

- There's significantly more Hyperspace events than Extended events (only System Opens) 

Seasonal kits are extended, and wave kits (store champs) are store's choice. 

Nothing stops stores from running seasonal kits as hyperspace if they want to, but, one of the prizes is an alt-art Punisher, so...

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2 hours ago, SOTL said:

It's not about new/old players.  It's about new/old ships.

X-Wing dies if FFG don't have an OP structure that drives people into buying the new ships and factions.  That's the bottom line.  Anybody who bought the conversion kits and wants to be able to just go ahead and play with those for the next two years is AND ALWAYS WAS kidding themselves that they'd be allowed to do that, because that's how you kill X-Wing stone dead.

Sorry, no that is completely wrong. In reality it’s about money, but where does this money come from? New or old customers... people, players!

If you want to keep business going, you either aquire new ones, or you need to make more money with whom you have (latter is a very bad idea)...

And since there seem to be no new customers coming, despite their measures, these are the same old people that they will need to keep. Which they are only partly doing at the moment.

On the one hand they are desperately trying to find new players and make getting into this hobby possible, officially with Hyperspace. But by doing this, they are losing old players that don’t like where this is going.

On the other hand, getting into X-Wing was much cheaper back then. I bought my first small ships for 12€. Now they are 23€. Nearly doubled. This is not the move of a company trying to find new customers. Beginner friendly is different.

There is a critical mass too. If there are actual people playing a game in your region, a vivid community, that is going to attract new players like nothing else!

I agree that there needs something to be done to keep the game alive. But Limiting choices, rotations and losing customers along the way is not that solution. That’s just making the matter easier for FFG.

Instead, balance sour game correctly, make Extended as perfect as it gets, ADD TOURNAMENT SCENARIOS where different kinds of squads excel, to make people buy different kinds of ships, and keep the gane affordable by growing the community, instead of trying to survive with price hikes.

This right now is not going to work for long, and i am going to be very sad when i will have to say: „I told you so!“ in the end.

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8 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Regardless, I fully agree, carrying 2 lists is doable. Carrying 3 lists on the other hand (main event list, hyperspace list, a 2nd list for Hangar Bay pods) within the restrictions of a cabin luggage is hard. You need to make compromises (like skipping Hangar Bay as you suggested). 

Depends on how you store them I guess, and what models you take.  I brought three lists for the Italian Open last year, Triple Defenders, XXXB and Gunboats/Defenders.  I managed to fit everything I needed - models, cards, tokens, templates - in just the Core Set box.

If you're taking bulkier models like the big ships, that's not always possible of course.

I tell you what though, compared to my days playing GW games, carrying models around for X-Wing is a breeze!

 

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1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

It's unfortunate that you have a community that drives away new players.  I don't think extended will help you.

I think it's more about driving away old players. The less they can use of what they have/the bigger the cost to come back/keep playing, the less attractive the game is to some people. 

Edited by LordBlades

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3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Depends on how you store them I guess, and what models you take.  I brought three lists for the Italian Open last year, Triple Defenders, XXXB and Gunboats/Defenders.  I managed to fit everything I needed - models, cards, tokens, templates - in just the Core Set box.

If you're taking bulkier models like the big ships, that's not always possible of course.

I tell you what though, compared to my days playing GW games, carrying models around for X-Wing is a breeze!

 

I never traveled to play GW games (except by car) but I can imagine. AFAIK the Romanian ETC team usually try to organize some guys to come by car every year for that very reason. 

 

Last year to Bologna I brought Ghost Fenn (3 ships) and Dash, Poe and Miranda and that, together with clothes&such filled my luggage. A 3rd list would have been impossible without rethinking my entire luggage strategy :)

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6 hours ago, ForceM said:

 

All of them 1.0 players that feel pretty bummed about the events. FFG is just betting the wrong horse here. They should keep their old customers happy, because there are barely new ones.

This feels accurate.

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18 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

..or anyone who bought a conversion kit, for that matter

Ummmm...no. You still didn't have to "re-buy" all you second edition ships. Hyperspace is the best format for the game going forward because its the most welcoming to new players and due to the smaller card pool and slower introduction/reintroduction of new/old ships it's more manageable to balance. You also still have your ships to play with casually and at a System Open event with awesome prize support. That doesn't sound like a slap in the face at all...

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8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The important thing is that we had 3 pages of indignation about something that we don't know.

Well is that because it is too soon to tell, or is it because we have no official word from FFG so everyone is spitballing to fill in the blanks?

Now in terms of how Hyperspace format meta will be that is too soon.

But in terms of FFGs plans on expanding the format to have more ships, FFG is keeping a tight lid.

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18 hours ago, namdoolb said:

Tldr: tournament formats need to be accessible for people who are new to the game since 2.0. Hyperspace is, extended is not. Without new players the game will wither and die. We do not want this to happen.

I don't mind buying product. I do mind being on a product treadmill. I only bought the Mining Guild TIE out of this wave, and passed on the conversion kits for my Resistance and First Order ships. Up until 2.0. I had bought one of everything, and multiples of some of them. Post 2.0, I'm buying less product.

If FFG have to wipe out the majority of my collection to make way for the new players, that's their call. I've got other games I can play.

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19 hours ago, namdoolb said:

I don't get where the hate for the hyperspace format comes from.... I mean; I get that people are annoyed because they can't use all their ships in hyperspace & because hyperspace is being pushed as a relevant tournament format.

 

But it's important to look at it like this:

Hyperspace is necessary for the game to grow.

Yeah, that's right: we need the hyperspace format. Have you tried to play first order or resistance against one of the 3 core factions in extended? It's not really very close. With equally skilled players the old factions have so much more in the way of options that they can dominate the newer factions pretty well.

It's going to be the same for the clone wars factions when they launch; they wouldn't be able to compete effectively because they haven't been around as long & don't have as much stuff.

And now I'd like to introduce you to the path the new player (yes, the player that never played 1.0 - because they are how this game grows and thrives).

To play hyperspace they must buy a core set, then they must buy ship packs for their chosen faction.

To play extended they must buy a core set, then buy a conversion kit for their chosen faction, then go hunting on amazon/ebay/wherever for old or 2nd hand copies of the ships that ffg hasn't gotten around to reprinting yet.

The latter of these two is an unacceptably convoluted and costly route into the game for a newcomer.

 

Tldr: tournament formats need to be accessible for people who are new to the game since 2.0. Hyperspace is, extended is not. Without new players the game will wither and die. We do not want this to happen.

 

it is not just that we can't use all the ships. It is that all factions are down to 4 ships (okay scum gets 5 but they are special that way). Now this is just a throw out but lets just say the Rebels had in addition to X-wing Y-wings, U-wings and Millennium Falcon they also had A-wings and B-wings, and the Empire had TIE bombers and TIE Interceptors to go with their TIE Advanced, TIE Strikers, TIE Reapers and Fighters. I would have been willing to bet, there would have been a lot less backlash against Hyperspace, even without the HWK-290s and Assault Gunboats.

Now to say that Hyperspace is more accessible, that is a sketchy claim to make. First of all the Hyperspace Format has devalued the first three conversion kits and those are the ones that would have been picked up the most, all the while making 1stOrder and Resistance Conversion kits an absolute must. Rebels the weakest faction the conversion kit is needed for a Falcon, empire gets early access to the TIE Striker but that is not much use since it will be in Wave 3. Scum Conversion kit is useless considering Hyperspace. Resistance gets you 2 ships, the 1st Order gets you all the ships making 1st Order the least accessible faction of the game.

Now of course you need new players because no matter what, you will lose clientele. That is just a fact of life, but will a super-competitive format bring in new players just because it has less ships? I think you need a more casual approach to bring new players in. Hyperspace is not going to be new player friendly because that is where the top tier competition is at. You don't take a person who just bought a core set and a couple of expansion packs and drop them into a regional. That player would sell their collection the next day. Hyperspace format is not about new players it is about the competitive format by omission of FFG. The fact they put that the format for Nationals and Worlds is their idea of the top-tier non-new player, best of the best competitive style of play.

Edited by Marinealver

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Because almost all the badly designed garbage in Extended is excluded.  You don't have to deal with Palob, 4-LOM, Redline, Whisper, Vader crew, Moldy Crow, Jonus, Gunrunners...

Hyperspace is awesome.  It's about flying and positioning not busted card synergies.

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Because almost all the badly designed garbage in Extended is excluded.  You don't have to deal with Palob, 4-LOM, Redline, Whisper, Vader crew, Moldy Crow, Jonus, Gunrunners...

Hyperspace is awesome.  It's about flying and positioning not busted card synergies.

Fully agreed, you can enjoy awesomely designed cards like Boba Fett pilot, Han gunner, I6 PTL Poe, asteroid ignoring TIE Fighters (because it's all about flying right?) etc :D

 

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6 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Fully agreed, you can enjoy awesomely designed cards like Boba Fett pilot, Han gunner, I6 PTL Poe, asteroid ignoring TIE Fighters (because it's all about flying right?) etc :D

 

Which are actually all well designed (except maybe Han Gunner).

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3 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Fully agreed, you can enjoy awesomely designed cards like Boba Fett pilot, Han gunner, I6 PTL Poe, asteroid ignoring TIE Fighters (because it's all about flying right?) etc :D

 

I unironically agree with your ironic statement. All those cards are terrific. One or two of them might be undercosted, but that's a fixable issue

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