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Something other than the FaD FP System?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, emsquared said:

They're very simple, elegant, and flexible, AND capture the lore well.

OP doesn't seem to think so, and I will do agree that the idea behind upgrading the skills is flexible, but at the same time it also makes it bulky and more complex.
While it does a good job at capturing the lore, it also can cause a disconnect. Because consider this, does it fit the lore that a force user who's weak in the force (FR1), can be able to, albeit unreliably lift and move an AT&AT Walker?
Thats what is possible with the current system, because all thats necessary is that the character has taken the basic power and 4 strength upgrades, and then roll 2 force points - no matter the side. Just for a total of 65 xp, and the character could even start with it. Skill with the force shouldn't make you able to do things that your force rating wouldn't suggest that you can do. Having a force power upgraded should allow you to make more efficient use of the force power you have available, but not make you stronger in the force. It's like this analogy, just because you're using higher quality fuel, that doesn't make your vehicle able to move at 4x the max speed that it normally could - this essentially what the vanilla system allows, and that in my opinion is very disconnected from lore. It may be that they removed the force rating table from the final release of EoTE, because they realized that it wasn't as simple, but that was also an indicator that something was off, and they should've corrected it. What I've pointed out is exactly what is wrong with the system with regards to the disconnect that is created, they should've put limits on how many upgrades you can activate, like it costing 1 force point to activate each strength upgrade. Essentially, the above problem comes from getting more output for the same cost, like activating 4 strength upgrades at the cost of 1, where had it been close to activating 4 strength upgrades at cost 4 force points, then you wouldn't be able to see a force user of FR1 be able to lift an AT&AT Walker just because the force user has 4 strength upgrades, because the force user wouldn't be able to gether enough force power to actually activate all strength upgrades necessary to move the AT&AT Walker - this particular force user would only be able to lift something of silhouette size of 1 or less, because the force user simply wouldn't be able to generate enough force points to activate all 4 strength upgrades with only one force dice available.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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5 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I think that statement depends on what era of Star Wars publishing you're looking at.  During the 90's, the books being produced were lousy with the Force being treated as a do-anything crisis solver by a multitude of authors, who turned Luke into a space wizard to get their plot out of whatever corner the author had painted themselves into.  Timothy Zahn was one of the few (IMO at least) who got that the Force wasn't "magic" but closer to the realm of psionics, and while it could do some impressive things, it wasn't a "do whatever I need it to do" thing that the EU turned it into.

Going purely by the films, then yes the Force is quite a great deal simpler than magic, as we don't see it do a great deal outside the (admittedly vague/broad) realms of telepathy (mind tricks, thought reading, illusions, possibly a degree of self-hypnotism depending on how you interpret enhancing one's combat prowess via the Force) and telekinesis (moving rocks, hurling objects/people, strangulation), with farseeing (past, present, or especially future events) and lightning being the major exceptions.

even seeing past future events is just precognition. Which I think much of the Jedi reflexes is just similar to Spidey Sense. You are aware just far enough ahead to dodge. I bet the sense defense upgrades are basically a little bit of reading your opponents intent with a little precog.

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On 6/19/2019 at 5:32 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

OP doesn't seem to think so, and I will do agree that the idea behind upgrading the skills is flexible, but at the same time it also makes it bulky and more complex.
While it does a good job at capturing the lore, it also can cause a disconnect. Because consider this, does it fit the lore that a force user who's weak in the force (FR1), can be able to, albeit unreliably lift and move an AT&AT Walker?
Thats what is possible with the current system, because all thats necessary is that the character has taken the basic power and 4 strength upgrades, and then roll 2 force points - no matter the side. Just for a total of 65 xp, and the character could even start with it. Skill with the force shouldn't make you able to do things that your force rating wouldn't suggest that you can do. Having a force power upgraded should allow you to make more efficient use of the force power you have available, but not make you stronger in the force. It's like this analogy, just because you're using higher quality fuel, that doesn't make your vehicle able to move at 4x the max speed that it normally could - this essentially what the vanilla system allows, and that in my opinion is very disconnected from lore. It may be that they removed the force rating table from the final release of EoTE, because they realized that it wasn't as simple, but that was also an indicator that something was off, and they should've corrected it. What I've pointed out is exactly what is wrong with the system with regards to the disconnect that is created, they should've put limits on how many upgrades you can activate, like it costing 1 force point to activate each strength upgrade. Essentially, the above problem comes from getting more output for the same cost, like activating 4 strength upgrades at the cost of 1, where had it been close to activating 4 strength upgrades at cost 4 force points, then you wouldn't be able to see a force user of FR1 be able to lift an AT&AT Walker just because the force user has 4 strength upgrades, because the force user wouldn't be able to gether enough force power to actually activate all strength upgrades necessary to move the AT&AT Walker - this particular force user would only be able to lift something of silhouette size of 1 or less, because the force user simply wouldn't be able to generate enough force points to activate all 4 strength upgrades with only one force dice available.

I disagree. Yoda makes it very clear in ESB that the Force has no such limitations. The only limitations it has are those we impose on ourselves. As He tells Luke when the latter says that lifting rocks is one thing, but lifting an X-Wing is totally different, Yoda says,” No! No different! Only different in your mind.” Then, after Luke fails, and says it’s too big, he goes on to say, “Size matters not. Judge me by my size do you? And well you should not; for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is.” And after Yoda succeeds where Luke failed, Luke responded with “I don’t believe it!”, at which Yoda replies, “That is why you fail.”

So even a FR 1 Force user should potentially be capable of pulling down a Star Destroyer with the right upgrades, it’s all about belief. Luke didn’t fail to lift his X-Wing because it was too big. He failed because he believed that it was too big. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/22/2019 at 3:33 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Yoda makes it very clear in ESB that the Force has no such limitations. The only limitations it has are those we impose on ourselves. As He tells Luke when the latter says that lifting rocks is one thing, but lifting an X-Wing is totally different, Yoda says,” No! No different! Only different in your mind.” Then, after Luke fails, and says it’s too big, he goes on to say, “Size matters not. Judge me by my size do you? And well you should not; for my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is.” And after Yoda succeeds where Luke failed, Luke responded with “I don’t believe it!”, at which Yoda replies, “That is why you fail.”

So even a FR 1 Force user should potentially be capable of pulling down a Star Destroyer with the right upgrades, it’s all about belief. Luke didn’t fail to lift his X-Wing because it was too big. He failed because he believed that it was too big. 

I'm sorry to say this to you, but the game quite explicitly states that force rating is a character's ability to use the force. It represents how strong one's connection to the force is. So it may very well be that the force doesn't have those limitations, but the force user most certainly does, which is represented by it's force rating. Otherwise the force using character should have an INFINITE amount of force rating, as the force is limitless and infinite. A force user's with a force rating of 1, would have a very weak connection to the force and would be considered having a weak ability to use the force. So one with an a force rating of one, most certainly should not be able to move an AT&AT walker, and how you get that force user with a force rating of 1 could potentially pull down a Star Destroyer I don't get. Because as far as I can see, the move power only has 4 strength upgrades, and the maximum amount of force points that would be possibility to generate would at best be 2, a star detroyer would have a silhoette of 8, thats twice the amount, and as such it would at minimum need a force rating of 2. But even then, a force user with a force rating of 2 being potentially able to pull down a star destroyer is just beyond absurd! That would effectively be like a very young padawan being able to potentially pull down a star destroyer - can you see and hear how absurd that seem and sounds when you put that in contrast to what the lore says?

You're assuming that the only reason Luke fails, is because he believe's its too big - there may very well be other factors at play here too, such as him only having begun his training, so his grasp on the force and how to tap into it is at best very rough. Furthermore, if we just consider that the reason he fails is due to him not believing enough in himself or that he believes it's too big, that would fall under the category of his belief putting a limit on ability to use his connection to the force, which essentially would cap his force rating at something lower to represent his belief (even there are no actual mechanics for it). In game terms if we go by the force rating that FFG has provided Luke with (which I don't agree with), then he would have a force rating of 3 when Luke was in the cave on Degobah, which is more than enough for him to be able to do it even with 1 strength upgrade score, as he could get up to 6 force points, even if he only had a force rating of 2 he would still be able to do it, as an X-wing is a silhoette 3 starship, because all he would need would've been 4 force points, so he failed because he didn't get the needed amount of force points. However, if it was only a force rating of 1 either from being capped or it actually being physical his limit at the time, then even with the 1 strength upgrade, it would not be enough, as he could only get 2 force points. Furthermore, it's well within the rules to rule that the force user will suffer strain if the object to be moved is big enough to warrant it. So even if he was strong enough force rating-wise with the 1 strength, it would still be strenous for him, and as the strain keep draining him each turn, he begins to doubt himself and believe it's too strong, and it actually just might've been at the current time for him, especially when considering he had only really begun his training.

On 6/19/2019 at 11:32 PM, InfinityIncarnate said:

What I've pointed out is exactly what is wrong with the system with regards to the disconnect that is created, they should've put limits on how many upgrades you can activate, like it costing 1 force point to activate each strength upgrade.

This would it would make sense even with the example above with Luke, even if Luke only had the force rating of 2 and the 1 strength upgrade, because he would've still have been able to do it, even when having to pay to use the upgrade with every use of the strength upgrade. Of course if his force rating was only 2 and 3, he would've had to get the maximum amount of points from both dices as would need 4 force points, and thats not impossible to occur, just less likely. If he had a force rating of 3 as FFG suggest he had at the time, then it would've been even more likely for him to get the needed amount of points. The most likely reason why he failed IN GAME TERMS was because of the strain he suffered while attempting to move it, and made the conscious choice to give up, because he felt it was too strenuous for him at the current time with his current force rating - and perhaps it was, whether it was to big or not in his mind, it still a strenuous task he has to do over an extended amount of time. If I remember correctly, the suggested strain amount to suffer per round, is the silhoette rating of the object intended to be moved. With the X-wing being a silhoette 3 starship, then that would 3 strain per round. As a human he would've had 10 + willpower, at minimum 12, so between 12 at 14 would be reasonable. That is only 4 game turns at best, that would be 9-12 strain suffered, and as he was still concious albeit seemingly very fatigued, he didn't go over his strain threshold limit. The point is, that even the game could still narratively support it if it had such a limitation.

Why you'd want it to be possible for a force user of a force rating of 1 to be to potentially able to pull down a star destroyer, or being able to move an AT&AT walker, to me seems like you want a very unbalanced game and something that actually isn't true to the lore, though in your mind it is true to the lore. Because I really can't see no other reason why'd you want to try and make it seem possible that someone who's just barely sensitive to the force, to potentially be able to pull down a star destroyer. I really do think they should make it cost 1 force point per upgrade one wants to activate and that you only get the benefit that individual upgrade, as opposed to getting the benefit of "for every upgrade of the same that one has". It is extremely unbalanced, because if we scale this just a bit, it should be apparent that it's very unbalanced, just take a look at the example below.

Example.
A force user of force rating of 3, with 4 strength upgrades, can with 4 strength upgrades at maximum move something with a silhoette size of 20, I don't even know what a silhoette size of 20 is, but it breaks the scale of use. All it requires is 6 force points generated, even with it being more unlikely, it's still very much so possible, basically for every force point less generated, the potential silhoette size drops by 4.
A star detroyer is silhoette size 8.
A super star destroyer is silhoette size 9.
A death star or a small moon is silhoette size 10.
...so something bigger than this is on the scale of a planet, and considering the increases aren't linear but rather exponential, then something of that size could be something like a solar system.
The reason it breaks the scale of use, is because there is no use for being able to move something of a silhoette size of 20 or above. And consider if the user had an FR of 4 instead of 3, then effectively it could've been a silhoette size of 28, and just steadily increases the potential with 8 for every force rating increase after force rating 1.
If that doesn't seem absurd to you, I don't know what does, but it should give a sufficient idea about why the lore doesn't support this. Because if it did, we would see so many force users capable of lifting much larger with ease, but we don't. Furthermore, whats the point being able to break the scale of of use? Like for instance being able to move planets.

You can support all you want - that it should be the way it is now, but then you're also supporting something thats quite absurd and quite imbalanced, and if you don't find being able to potentially move something with a silhoette size of 20 with a force rating of 3 and 4 strength upgrades imbalanced and absured, then I don't what will.
 

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A character with four strength upgrades can lift a Sil 4 object with a single pip. With two pips he can lift twice that.

Technically 3 pips. Base power needs a pip.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Technically 3 pips. Base power needs a pip.

If you're saying 3 to be able to lift Silhoette size 4 x2 with the force points, then yes, you're correct, otherwise no.

Because...
Base power - 1 point.
4x Strength Upgrades - 1
4x Strength Upgrades - 1
...so in total 3 points.

My point above remains, this exactly why it becomes absurd, imbalanced and very easily get to a point where it breaks the scale of use, including not being consistent with the lore.
...does it seem reasonable that a force user with a force rating of 4 and 4 strength upgrades, potentially can be able to lift an object of silhoette size 28 - what could something of that size be and when do we ever see that happening? As established above, a death star or a small moon has a silhoette size of 10, so something with a silhoette size of 28, would be something of the size of an extremely large planet, if not even larger than that. I do not for second believe that this is consistent with the lore of Star Wars. When the game rules allows for breaking the scale, it's indicator of imbalance and whatever is causing it needs to be adjusted OR everything else has to be adjusted accordingly.

If you think otherwise, then please in game terms do explain why you think it's consistent with the lore, why you think it's balanced and why it makes sense for the rules to support something that breaks the scale of use?

When I read the statblock for Darth Vader in the Dawn of Rebellion, his force move, the strength upgrade part, seems to be limited: "spend force points to increase the size of the object he can move to Silhouette 4.", to me that sounds like 4 strength upgrades, and that it's being limited to only increasing it to that size which equals the amount of strength upgrades, rather than being able to increase the max silhoette size based on the amount of strength upgrades and force points spent. Why would they word it that way? Is it possible, that they intended it to be limited this way, as opposed how it's actually worded in the core rulebook, that you can use an upgrade multiple times, so they really have intended it to more limited? If we're to apply the rules that states upgrades can be used multiple times, and that Vader's force move ability has 4 strength upgrades, then with him being a force rating 6 dark side force user, he could potentially move an object of silhoette size 44.

I think the best way to correct this issue, would be to limit the amount of upgrades for each respective upgrade based on the force users force rating, but at the same time also change it so you only get the benefit of 1 upgrade and not for every upgrade you have of that type, so that it requires 1 force point for each upgrade that you decide to use. So if you wanted to use 4 strength upgrades, it would cost you 4 force points and you would only be able to increase the maximum silhoette size to 4, at the same time this would also require one to have a force rating of 4. Another option that is just as good, would be to only have one possible upgrade of each (Duration, Magnitude, Range, Strength, and so on ) for each power, have each upgrade work differently in relation to what would be balanced and would reflect lore best, then the amount of times you can put force points into activating the upgrade would be based on your force rating - like equal to the force users force rating. This way a force user of force rating 3 of with the strength upgrade, could activate the strength upgrade 3 times and thus be able to move something of silhoette size 3 - which would be way more balanced than what it currently is, further more it's also supported by lore as one would not be stronger than he or she actually is in the force.

Edited by InfinityIncarnate

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8 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

If you're saying 3 to be able to lift Silhoette size 4 x2 with the force points, then yes, you're correct, otherwise no.

Because...
Base power - 1 point.
4x Strength Upgrades - 1
4x Strength Upgrades - 1
...so in total 3 points.

My point above remains, this exactly why it becomes absurd, imbalanced and very easily get to a point where it breaks the scale of use, including not being consistent with the lore.
...does it seem reasonable that a force user with a force rating of 4 and 4 strength upgrades, potentially can be able to lift an object of silhoette size 28 - what could something of that size be and when do we ever see that happening? As established above, a death star or a small moon has a silhoette size of 10, so something with a silhoette size of 28, would be something of the size of an extremely large planet, if not even larger than that. I do not for second believe that this is consistent with the lore of Star Wars. When the game rules allows for breaking the scale, it's indicator of imbalance and whatever is causing it needs to be adjusted OR everything else has to be adjusted accordingly.

If you think otherwise, then please in game terms do explain why you think it's consistent with the lore, why you think it's balanced and why it makes sense for the rules to support something that breaks the scale of use?

When I read the statblock for Darth Vader in the Dawn of Rebellion, his force move, the strength upgrade part, seems to be limited: "spend force points to increase the size of the object he can move to Silhouette 4.", to me that sounds like 4 strength upgrades, and that it's being limited to only increasing it to that size which equals the amount of strength upgrades, rather than being able to increase the max silhoette size based on the amount of strength upgrades and force points spent. Why would they word it that way? Is it possible, that they intended it to be limited this way, as opposed how it's actually worded in the core rulebook, that you can use an upgrade multiple times, so they really have intended it to more limited? If we're to apply the rules that states upgrades can be used multiple times, and that Vader's force move ability has 4 strength upgrades, then with him being a force rating 6 dark side force user, he could potentially move an object of silhoette size 44.

I think the best way to correct this issue, would be to limit the amount of upgrades for each respective upgrade based on the force users force rating, but at the same time also change it so you only get the benefit of 1 upgrade and not for every upgrade you have of that type, so that it requires 1 force point for each upgrade that you decide to use. So if you wanted to use 4 strength upgrades, it would cost you 4 force points and you would only be able to increase the maximum silhoette size to 4, at the same time this would also require one to have a force rating of 4. Another option that is just as good, would be to only have one possible upgrade of each (Duration, Magnitude, Range, Strength, and so on ) for each power, have each upgrade work differently in relation to what would be balanced and would reflect lore best, then the amount of times you can put force points into activating the upgrade would be based on your force rating - like equal to the force users force rating. This way a force user of force rating 3 of with the strength upgrade, could activate the strength upgrade 3 times and thus be able to move something of silhoette size 3 - which would be way more balanced than what it currently is, further more it's also supported by lore as one would not be stronger than he or she actually is in the force.

and your solution is far far far far worse than the disease. I don't expect to need to worry about people moving planets as that would require a massive force rating unlikely to be seen in a game.

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11 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

If you're saying 3 to be able to lift Silhoette size 4 x2 with the force points, then yes, you're correct, otherwise no.

Because...
Base power - 1 point.
4x Strength Upgrades - 1
4x Strength Upgrades - 1
...so in total 3 points.

My point above remains, this exactly why it becomes absurd, imbalanced and very easily get to a point where it breaks the scale of use, including not being consistent with the lore.
...does it seem reasonable that a force user with a force rating of 4 and 4 strength upgrades, potentially can be able to lift an object of silhoette size 28 - what could something of that size be and when do we ever see that happening? As established above, a death star or a small moon has a silhoette size of 10, so something with a silhoette size of 28, would be something of the size of an extremely large planet, if not even larger than that. I do not for second believe that this is consistent with the lore of Star Wars. When the game rules allows for breaking the scale, it's indicator of imbalance and whatever is causing it needs to be adjusted OR everything else has to be adjusted accordingly.

If you think otherwise, then please in game terms do explain why you think it's consistent with the lore, why you think it's balanced and why it makes sense for the rules to support something that breaks the scale of use?

When I read the statblock for Darth Vader in the Dawn of Rebellion, his force move, the strength upgrade part, seems to be limited: "spend force points to increase the size of the object he can move to Silhouette 4.", to me that sounds like 4 strength upgrades, and that it's being limited to only increasing it to that size which equals the amount of strength upgrades, rather than being able to increase the max silhoette size based on the amount of strength upgrades and force points spent. Why would they word it that way? Is it possible, that they intended it to be limited this way, as opposed how it's actually worded in the core rulebook, that you can use an upgrade multiple times, so they really have intended it to more limited? If we're to apply the rules that states upgrades can be used multiple times, and that Vader's force move ability has 4 strength upgrades, then with him being a force rating 6 dark side force user, he could potentially move an object of silhoette size 44.

I think the best way to correct this issue, would be to limit the amount of upgrades for each respective upgrade based on the force users force rating, but at the same time also change it so you only get the benefit of 1 upgrade and not for every upgrade you have of that type, so that it requires 1 force point for each upgrade that you decide to use. So if you wanted to use 4 strength upgrades, it would cost you 4 force points and you would only be able to increase the maximum silhoette size to 4, at the same time this would also require one to have a force rating of 4. Another option that is just as good, would be to only have one possible upgrade of each (Duration, Magnitude, Range, Strength, and so on ) for each power, have each upgrade work differently in relation to what would be balanced and would reflect lore best, then the amount of times you can put force points into activating the upgrade would be based on your force rating - like equal to the force users force rating. This way a force user of force rating 3 of with the strength upgrade, could activate the strength upgrade 3 times and thus be able to move something of silhoette size 3 - which would be way more balanced than what it currently is, further more it's also supported by lore as one would not be stronger than he or she actually is in the force.

 

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

and your solution is far far far far worse than the disease. I don't expect to need to worry about people moving planets as that would require a massive force rating unlikely to be seen in a game.

The other thing you're failing to take into account is the power's range. While, technically, a Jedi with all of the Strength upgrades should be able to lift a Sil 8 Star Destroyer, with only three pips, you still have to take into account that much of that Star Destroyer's mass is out of range for the Force user. even with all of the Range upgrades, you still can't affect something past Extreme Range. And the total mass of a Star Destroyer exceeds Planetary Scale Close range, far beyond Extreme Range. So, he might be able to lift the nose of a Star Destroyer, but not necessarily its entire mass. However, pulling or pushing it is still an option as  at least some of it is within range. 

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Gaining a Force Rating doesn’t mean you are suddenly stronger in the Force, it can just as easily mean you are getting better at utilising the connection to the Force that you already had.

The Force Rating is just an abstraction that’s necessary in a system with mechanical game elements. It’s a simple way to emulate a character getting steadily better at everything, rather than only a single thing at a time.

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On 6/24/2019 at 10:05 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

The other thing you're failing to take into account is the power's range. While, technically, a Jedi with all of the Strength upgrades should be able to lift a Sil 8 Star Destroyer, with only three pips, you still have to take into account that much of that Star Destroyer's mass is out of range for the Force user. even with all of the Range upgrades, you still can't affect something past Extreme Range. And the total mass of a Star Destroyer exceeds Planetary Scale Close range, far beyond Extreme Range. So, he might be able to lift the nose of a Star Destroyer, but not necessarily its entire mass. However, pulling or pushing it is still an option as  at least some of it is within range. 

Actually, I'm not forgetting that one also needs range, and it's very possible that someone could be onboard the starship in question, then suddenly the force user is WITHIN range. Furthermore, there is nothing that indicates that you can't go from extreme to planetary scale, because there is IN FACT NO LIMIT on how many times you can activate the range upgrade. In fact, the planetary scale range section: "On a planet’s surface, personal scale range bands may suffice" note, it doesn't say it suffices - it's not an absolute statement, so in the event that it doesn't you'll need to use the planetary scale range. Additionally: "A good guideline is that close range on the planetary scale picks up where the extreme range of personal scale ends—it’s the next step in ranged bands". So most certainly, it's possible to go past the extreme range, especially because it's not the character actually moving him/herself, but something completely different. Since that planetary scale range begins AFTER personal extreme range, it's just the natural and logical next step to use the planetary scale. The real problematic question is, how many range bands are there from the planet's surface to where space begins (the planet's exosphere), especially because this is variable matter, as it's different from planet to planet.

While considering that the planetary scale range operates on a large range scale, it's still usable for the purposes of determining how many increments from the short range to the intended target to be affectes is, with the caveat that it works with much large numbers than what the personal scale range does, and the fact that one would need to be able to somehow see it or sense it. I think it's important to consider the differences between the personal and planetary scale range bands, and the fact that planetary close range is only slightly farther than personal extreme range, it could be argued that those two ranges band be combined - which basically would make it easier and more appropriately balance it, because as they become one, then you know for one planetary range increment - you need to reach personal extreme range. So 1 force point with 3 range upgrades would confer 1 planetary scale range increment.

In the event that the force user actually can somehow see or sense the object to be moved, then it would proceed as dictated by the rules, unless there are specific rules that override this. There is also another very important factor that needs to be in the equation, and this is if the user is on the surface of a planet or in space.

A few examples, using the personal extreme range and planetary close range, as the same.

Example #1
A force rating 2 force user, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 4 force points, then:
Activation: 1 Point:
Strength upgrades: 2 Points - Silhoette size 8
Range upgrades: 1 Points - Personal extreme range or planetary close range


Example #2
A force user with a force rating of 3, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 6 force points, then:
Activation: 1 Point:
Strength upgrades: 3 Points - Silhoette size 12
Range upgrades: 2 Points - Personal extreme range or planetary short range

Example #3
A force user with a force rating 3, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 6 force points, then:
Activation: 1 Point:
Strength upgrades: 2 Points - Silhoette size 8
Range upgrades: 3 Points - Personal extreme range or planetary medium range

Example #4
A force user with a force rating 4, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 8 force points, then:
Activation: 1 Point:
Strength upgrades: 2 Points - Silhoette size 8
Range upgrades: 5 Points - Personal extreme range or beyond planetary extreme range

In example 4, notice that it goes beyond the planetary extreme range, it could very well constitute the point of where one on the surface is able to affect what he or she can somehow see or sense in space which is close enough to the planet which the force user is on. Most capital class starships that are close enough to the planet can be seen without any kind of aid.

 

Just for reference:

Planetary Scale Range:
Close Range:
On planetary scale it's slightly farther than extreme range in personal scale, and it can cover everything from a few dozen meters up to several kilometers in distance between two points.
In space, close range is the metaphorical “knife fight” range, in which dogfights between snubfighters or high-performance airspeeders take place.


Short range
On planetary scale is anything up to roughly several dozen kilometers away.
In space, short range is just out of dogfighting range and beyond the range of most starfighter

Medium Range:
On the surface of a planet or inside a planet’s atmosphere, something is within medium range if it is within roughly fifty kilometers.
In space, something may be within medium range at a somewhat longer distance, up to a few hundred kilometers.

Long range:
On a planet’s surface can be anywhere from a hundred to two hundred kilometers away.
In space, however, long range can be up to several thousand kilometers away.

Extreme Range:
On a planet’s surface, extreme range is the far edge of a vehicle’s scanners.
In space, extreme range is likewise beyond the range of almost all starship weapons, even those mounted on capital ships.

 

22 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Gaining a Force Rating doesn’t mean you are suddenly stronger in the Force, it can just as easily mean you are getting better at utilising the connection to the Force that you already had.

The Force Rating is just an abstraction that’s necessary in a system with mechanical game elements. It’s a simple way to emulate a character getting steadily better at everything, rather than only a single thing at a time.

In that case, they actually need something that represent someone's strength in the force, because without it, then everyone is arbitrarily just as strong as any other force sensitive, the only difference being how good they are at using the force. Because, then for instance Anakin being the chosen one and the one supposed to be the strongest connection to the force and the one with the best potential, but technically under the system, ANYONE could become just as strong with the force him, including reach his potential given by the prophecy.

It's like I said, the rules specifically states it's ones ability to use the force, just like any of the 6 other core characteristics, are abilities that allows one to interact with others and the world they live in. So most certainly force rating can be perceived as one's strength and connection with the force, and not just one's skill with the force, and more over, force rating isn't described as a skill.

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I'd held off on getting into Force rules all this time; the sheer bookkeeping didn't hit me until I browsed this thread. Appreciate the links to house rules. I'll be making an Accelerated version for an incoming new player, no doubt.

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1 hour ago, wilsch said:

I'd held off on getting into Force rules all this time; the sheer bookkeeping didn't hit me until I browsed this thread. Appreciate the links to house rules. I'll be making an Accelerated version for an incoming new player, no doubt.

The rules as written do not have this much book keeping and i would not use anything in this thread if you dont want a lot of book keeping.

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41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The rules as written do not have this much book keeping and i would not use anything in this thread if you dont want a lot of book keeping.

Oh, I hear you. It's more the discussion here and the concepts in the links that have helped direct what I want to keep and what I might replace.

Bookkeeping is a subjective thing. All said and done, the OP's point about organization and tracking for more casual players (like mine) still stands for me.

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Posted (edited)

Yea, vanilla Force system booking for me, with a PC at 600+ earned-xp was... what, 6 or 7 lines of hand-written text/sentences less than probably 15 words each. To use something well tested, balanced, fun, quickly playable, and universally understood by players of the system.

The proposal(s) here? You must: memorize and understand new terms, memorize and understand new mechanics, have/or memorize new table for the 5+ different ways to spend the 5 different narrative symbols - for any given power, utilize a system of unknown balance with regards to both power usage/effects and the Morality system, create new/adjust existing Talents, list goes on...

Use the vanilla system first before you determine you must use something else. You're not being smart or insightful to do otherwise, you're just being ignorant (of the vanilla system).

Edited by emsquared

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1 hour ago, wilsch said:

Oh, I hear you. It's more the discussion here and the concepts in the links that have helped direct what I want to keep and what I might replace.

Bookkeeping is a subjective thing. All said and done, the OP's point about organization and tracking for more casual players (like mine) still stands for me.

Try the vanilla system first. the only book keeping really is did I use dark side pips? If yes then mark the number you used. Did the GM give me conflict for an action my character did? if yes right it down. at the end of the session add that number up and roll a d10. subtract the earned conflict. if the number is positive your morality goes up by the positive number. If it is negative your morality goes down by the negative number. that is it. no book keeping really at all.

At least no more really than tracking wounds and strain.

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2 hours ago, emsquared said:

Use the vanilla system first before you determine you must use something else. You're not being smart or insightful to do otherwise, you're just being ignorant (of the vanilla system).

Haha, or you're being a little over-prescriptive. My friends and I have been running a table for three years. Rest easy; we run RAW where it works but we also know what we like. 

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24 minutes ago, wilsch said:

Haha, or you're being a little over-prescriptive. My friends and I have been running a table for three years. Rest easy; we run RAW where it works but we also know what we like. 

But you clearly have said you have not run the force system. try it vanilla first. :)

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3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

But you clearly have said you have not run the force system. try it vanilla first. :)

I said I hadn't read it yet. 😎

What I and my friend (a character in my campaign, running one of his own) have had success with is the opposite, starting with simplified/abridged versions and working to RAW if players are willing.

You've gotta understand the level of gaming expertise we're dealing with, and the value of running at that level to capitalize on other aspects of roleplaying that the (older) group excels at. Arranging trees and marking purchases and tallying pools accordingly may not be much to you or me, but I know from experience it will be for them. I'm fairly rules-light and pacing-focused myself, so it's no big deal to me.

Again, I hear you. But for me and mine, something a little different comes into play.

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36 minutes ago, wilsch said:

I said I hadn't read it yet. 😎

What I and my friend (a character in my campaign, running one of his own) have had success with is the opposite, starting with simplified/abridged versions and working to RAW if players are willing.

You've gotta understand the level of gaming expertise we're dealing with, and the value of running at that level to capitalize on other aspects of roleplaying that the (older) group excels at. Arranging trees and marking purchases and tallying pools accordingly may not be much to you or me, but I know from experience it will be for them. I'm fairly rules-light and pacing-focused myself, so it's no big deal to me.

Again, I hear you. But for me and mine, something a little different comes into play.

I get that you are experienced. That doesn't change the fact that A. the RAW rules are not complicated. and B. until you at least try the RAW rules you wont really understand them. They are easy but power level is a deceptive thing. It is not a linear progression as there are a lot of factors that go into what you can do. A lot of people go off on all these fears about how powerful the force can be with out realizing just how much experience you need in order for that to be an issue. SO please try the Rules As written. If you need siplified use the beginner game as a starting point. But if you go mucking with the force mechanics you run the risk of SERIOUSLY unbalancing the game. For example the rules in this thread are really broken and needlessly complicated.

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