To the Limit + Hit and Run + Return Fire + Parting Shot

[Trevize84 413]

Hi all,

Let's have Greedo using To the Limit. With the additional action he uses Hit and Run. My understanding is that Greedo attack and moves before Return Fire and the stun from To the Limit. Let's also assume Greedo ends his movement so that Han can still use Return Fire. Han shots and kills Greedo. At this time Parting Shot triggers.

Question is: when is Greedo stunned by To the Limit?

Reading To the Limit I would say stun happens after Hit and Run and my interpretation is that Hit and Run is interrupted by Return Fire and Parting Shot. But I'm not entirely sure...

[a1bert 4,115]

18 minutes ago, Trevize84 said:

My understanding is that Greedo attack and moves before Return Fire and the stun from To the Limit.

Greedo becomes stunned from To the Limit after resolving Hit and Run (after ending movement or choosing not to spend the movement points).

Edited December 20, 2018 by a1bert

[Trevize84 413]

11 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Greedo becomes stunned from To the Limit after resolving Hit and Run (after ending movement or choosing not to spend the movement points).

Is Return fire in conflict with movement points from Hit and Run? Does the stun get in conflict with those as well? I ask because I don't understand the logic behind this

[a1bert 4,115]

Movement points from Hit and Run (explicit after attack resolves) and Return Fire (after an attack is resolved - same as after attack resolves) trigger at the same time, but the attacker after-attack-resolves abilities are resolved before defender abilities. (Latest FAQ, not per initiative.)

And FAQ also says to resolve all after-attack-resolves abilities before resolving after-action abilities, such as stunned from To the Limit.

Edited December 20, 2018 by a1bert

[ManateeX 1,293]

Wouldn't he never have a chance to move?  Hit and run grants movement points.  Since it's his activation, wouldn't the the stun kick in before he gets a chance to spend those points for movement?

Regarding what comes first between Return Fire/the Stun, I don't have an answer for that.  Return fire happens "after the attack resolves", whereas the stun from TTL happens after the action with no specific timing "..perform 1 additional action.  Then you become stunned". 

If "after the attack resolves" is still considered part of the attack action then the return fire and parting shot definitely come before the stun.  If "after the attack resolves" and TTL's after the action are the same timing instance, I'm not actually sure what the proper order would be.

 

 

Edit: Nevermind my first line - I just remember the special rule about movement points gained during a special action being spent immediately

Edited December 20, 2018 by ManateeX

[a1bert 4,115]

Just now, ManateeX said:

Wouldn't he never have a chance to move?  Hit and run grants movement points.  Since it's his activation, wouldn't the the stun kick in before he gets a chance to spend those points for movement?

The movement points are received as part of a special action.

[Fightwookies 1,081]

1 hour ago, a1bert said:

And FAQ also says to resolve all after-attack-resolves abilities before resolving after-action abilities, such as stunned from To the Limit.

So, explicitly, the stunned from to the limit happens after the defender after attack abilities?

[a1bert 4,115]

Yes, the action granted by To the Limit is not over until the action is over, and the action isn't over until the after-attack-resolves abilities have been resolved.

[brettpkelly 774]

Does the FAQ apply in this case? The latter part of To the Limit isn't explicitly an "after resolving an action" ability. Hit and Run is seems like it should be fully resolved in the "after an attack is resolved stage". Perform an attack. After the attack is resolved gain 3 movement points. How are you not stunned immediately after spending the movement points?

Seems like the defender is interrupting instant effects to fit the defender's timing window in. Not saying your interpretation of the rules is wrong, but this seems super counterintuitive to me.

Edited December 20, 2018 by brettpkelly

[a1bert 4,115]

To the Limit said:

Use after you perform a special action during your activation to perform 1 additional action. Then you become Stunned.

Look a the outer ability from To the Limit. How would it not require that you perform that additional action before becoming Stunned? If the additional action contains an attack, that additional action cannot end before the abilities triggering from it have been resolved as per the FAQ. There also cannot be lingering effects due to the "Then" sequencer.

· During an attack action, all "after resolving an attack" abilities
  must resolve before any "after resolving an action" abilities can
  be triggered.

This (also) means that after-attack-resolves abilities are resolved before e.g. bleeding triggers.

Edited December 20, 2018 by a1bert

[brettpkelly 774]

1 minute ago, a1bert said:

 

 

How would it not require that you perform that additional action before becoming Stunned? If the additional action contains an attack, that additional action cannot end before the abilities triggering from it have been resolved as per the FAQ. There also cannot be lingering effects due to the "Then" sequencer.

· During an attack action, all "after resolving an attack" abilities
  must resolve before any "after resolving an action" abilities can
  be triggered.

This (also) means that after-attack-resolves abilities are resolved before e.g. bleeding triggers.

I get it it's just giving me a headache. "After an action resolves" and "after an attack resolves" even if that action was an attack being different timing windows is not something I was aware of and it seems overly complicated to me. 

[Trevize84 413]

22 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:

it seems overly complicated to me. 

I'm totally with you on this. This game needs a v2.0 of game rules where all the FAQs and designer responses are armonised and rationalised with the RRG, to make things easier and more straightforward without the need of a master degree in law to fully understand how the game works

Edited December 20, 2018 by Trevize84

[Trevize84 413]

Btw thanks @a1bert for clarifying on this

[a1bert 4,115]

The game is full of nested abilities. Perform an ability, if another ability interrupts or you get to perform a different ability perform it, then continue resolving the one you were on.

I think you can only make it simpler by making the game simpler.

 

[a1bert 4,115]

4 minutes ago, Trevize84 said:

I'm totally with you on this. This game needs a v2.0 of game rules where all the FAQs and designer responses are armonised and rationalised with the RRG, to make things easier and more straightforward without the need of a master degree in law.

Looked at The Consolidated Imperial Assault rules?

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/168240/consolidated-star-wars-imperial-assault-rules

[Trevize84 413]

3 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Looked at The Consolidated Imperial Assault rules?

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/168240/consolidated-star-wars-imperial-assault-rules

That's my Bible but I wish designers will start from that and streamline all the edge cases that generates exceptions and excessive hairsplitting.