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Muelmuel

Sato Sniper Shotgun

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Fiddled with the idea of making the liberty(title) play to its ability, and I thought why not Sato, and the lib can fling 2 squads out with just a squad token, to paint it's targets and with GT blast both at once. Finally filled the idea out:


Sato Sniper Shotgun (400/400)
============================
MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 + 43)
    + Strategic Adviser (4)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Leading Shots (4)
    + Engine Techs (8)
    + Spinal Armament (9)
    + H9 Turbolasers (8)
    + Liberty (3)
Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 + 45)
    + Commander Sato (32)
    + Ahsoka Tano (2)
    + All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
    + Disposable Capacitors (3)
    + Phoenix Home (3)
Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 + 12)
    + Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)
    + Salvation (7)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 😎
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
6 x Y-wing Squadron (6 x 10)
Precision Strike
Hyperspace assault
Solar Corona

I initially considered Awings, which aren't bad, but I went the Y-wing route. When the pelta AFFM at the right time, from being next to the liberty the Y-wings can be flung out to be at distance 1 of the enemy ship(s). They also have the highest health for a cheap squad and can last longer. The Lib wants to do what it's chassis is made for, pop smaller things and cripple and run from big ones. Maybe I could drop Plo Koon(Advisor) and swap out H9 to a QTC for maximum possible pain, and can at medium range(surprise!) sato swap 2 blues to red to proc the QTC. The pelta can fling other Y-wings and slow roll with bcc support, and Salvation as finisher. I might need a Jan or generic hwk for Intel.

Edited by Muelmuel

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8 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

But also, why Sato? Whats he even doing here. Just use Dodonna

Well Dodonna is probably more efficient, though I have not tested this list out yet. The original idea really was to make use of the liberty title. Since it can uniquely fling 2 squads with a token I put GT and sato for a combo of sorts. At that point I can LS reroll when attacking 2 diff ships at once from long range.

I could also swap to Awings to remove the need for an AFFM pelta and free up the rest of the list to do other things

Edited by Muelmuel

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I think people are being overly negative here OP.

On my end though, I've given up on Sato due to him suffering from the Sloane fever without offering enough of a benefit for the sacrifice needed - and my general dislike for ordnance based fleets - which seems to be the main idea with Sato these days.

My impression if the meta judgement on him is that people tried really hard to make him work when came out - and yet he failed so hard almost no one cared to continue using him. 

Mathematically, the usual best case scenario with him is that you gain 2 black instead of 2 red dice = 0.25 increased average damage and an 50% increase of a chance to get a crit from 0.25 to 0.5 on each of those dice.

If you're only getting the 0.5 avg damage extra on each shot from Sato and only IF you manage to get a squadron into the right place prior to taking the shot for a 32 point cost commander you're paying too much given that your squadrons (that you'll have to take some of) gain no benefit from it. Notice that the increase in damage is less than a concentrate fire dial (at least a 0.75 avg damage increaae) totally and per dice less than a concentrate fire token or other reroll effect.

I appreciate the idea that if you gain something from the increased crit effect as well - and/or gain something by being able to add dice at another range than you usually would - then the math changes. Also because it is unexpected/unique to be able to start triggering APT/ACM and other black crits at long range.

As an aside, Sloane costs less AND helps your ships and squadrons simultaneously.

I fully respect your idea of using Sato to get a blue dice for Leading Shots on your MC80 Liberty though, I hadn't actually thought of that before. Even if it does seem obvious at second glance 

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My overall comment on your fleet isn't that it won't work, but I wonder if Sato is doing enough for you?

1 hour ago, Cpt. Caine said:

I appreciate the idea that if you gain something from the increased crit effect as well - and/or gain something by being able to add dice at another range than you usually would - then the math changes. Also because it is unexpected/unique to be able to start triggering APT/ACM and other black crits at long range.

I think that if you're going to try to build a Sato list, the only way to make him strong is to capitalize on crit effects. And there's only really 4 of them: APT, ACM, HIE and to a lesser extent, Salvation. XX-9 doesn't really apply as you have to go through shields for it to work. Anything else, as you said, you're paying a ton for not much gain. Yes, using Sato to trigger LS is a thing, but you can do much better things with Sato than LS. It just seems to me like a poor use of a 32 point commander if your main usage is triggering your red dice insurance policy.

With that in mind, OP, you have over 200 points (your Pelta and your Liberty) in your list that isn't dedicated to triggering crit effects. Maybe you really like the theme of your fleet and that's fine, but if you're looking to really make Sato work, I don't know if the Liberty is the best way to go about it. As with Leia, I feel that if you're investing 30+ points in a commander, you might as well make sure his ability can be used as often as possible. With only your Salvation and your Liberty (sorta) able to make any actual use of Sato, I can't help but feel he's a waste of points.

As for squadrons, you need Intel. The problem is, without an escort, it's going to get sniped. And then, you have no way to free your squadrons. I would suggest trying to find a way to fit Tycho in there. He's pretty much essential to the whole operation. You can even keep him back and launch him forward with a squadron token at the opportune time.

I ran him last Regional in a more classical loadout of MC75 + 3 ACM Hammerheads. My advice: Try it against Mothma if you can. It's one of the worst matchups for Sato.

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54 minutes ago, Cpt. Caine said:

I love the fluff (even if I'm by all means a bit hostile to the HP IP after the movies and all) of that article :D

Can you elaborate your point though?

Top 10 at uk nationals. Is that failing hard? 

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On 12/22/2018 at 10:00 PM, Ginkapo said:

Top 10 at uk nationals. Is that failing hard? 

I understand your point now

As to the point itself:

First of all, that is one single case of a person performin decent with a commander. There is little to no generalizability from single cases. Neither is a single case disproof of a generalized statement unless it is absolute (e.g. all dinosaurs are dead).

Secondly, the number of variables that affect the placings of someone at a tournament are many and the commander is just one.

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39 minutes ago, Cpt. Caine said:

I understand your point now

As to the point itself:

First of all, that is one single case of a person performin decent with a commander. There is little to no generalizability from single cases. Neither is a single case disproof of a generalized statement unless it is absolute (e.g. all dinosaurs are dead).

Secondly, the number of variables that affect the placings of someone at a tournament are many and the commander is just one.

Guess "all" the folks who ran Sato in your scenario were sato experts so their skill made no difference In your conclusion? 

Second of all, fail is subjective, so I guess if you decide that Sato is bad based on not winning everytime, that's your viewpoint. Not sure anyone should base good or bad on that definition. Sato works in certain scenarios, like the one presented in the link @Ginkapo posted. It's up to individuals to decide. 

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On 12/20/2018 at 4:04 AM, Muelmuel said:

Fiddled with the idea of making the liberty(title) play to its ability, and I thought why not Sato, and the lib can fling 2 squads out with just a squad token, to paint it's targets and with GT blast both at once. Finally filled the idea out:


Sato Sniper Shotgun (400/400)
============================
MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 + 43)
    + Strategic Adviser (4)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Leading Shots (4)
    + Engine Techs (8)
    + Spinal Armament (9)
    + H9 Turbolasers (8)
    + Liberty (3)
Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 + 45)
    + Commander Sato (32)
    + Ahsoka Tano (2)
    + All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
    + Disposable Capacitors (3)
    + Phoenix Home (3)
Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 + 12)
    + Dual Turbolaser Turrets (5)
    + Salvation (7)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 😎
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
6 x Y-wing Squadron (6 x 10)
Precision Strike
Hyperspace assault
Solar Corona

I initially considered Awings, which aren't bad, but I went the Y-wing route. When the pelta AFFM at the right time, from being next to the liberty the Y-wings can be flung out to be at distance 1 of the enemy ship(s). They also have the highest health for a cheap squad and can last longer. The Lib wants to do what it's chassis is made for, pop smaller things and cripple and run from big ones. Maybe I could drop Plo Koon(Advisor) and swap out H9 to a QTC for maximum possible pain, and can at medium range(surprise!) sato swap 2 blues to red to proc the QTC. The pelta can fling other Y-wings and slow roll with bcc support, and Salvation as finisher. I might need a Jan or generic hwk for Intel.

I agree that you need some Intel in your squads. Plus, you have the primary dmg coming from the liberty. Secondly the y-wings. Other than that, very little punch. The pelta doesn't do much for attacking.

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6 hours ago, Cpt. Caine said:

I understand your point now

As to the point itself:

First of all, that is one single case of a person performin decent with a commander. There is little to no generalizability from single cases. Neither is a single case disproof of a generalized statement unless it is absolute (e.g. all dinosaurs are dead).

Secondly, the number of variables that affect the placings of someone at a tournament are many and the commander is just one.

I did top 10 at uk nationals. Then the Steel Squadron guys and Maturin picked it up, refined it and Shmitty and Truth publizised how to run Sato. Skycake then won a regionals with him. Theres a clear timeline for it. 

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On 12/25/2018 at 4:18 PM, moodswing5537 said:

Guess "all" the folks who ran Sato in your scenario were sato experts so their skill made no difference In your conclusion? 

Second of all, fail is subjective, so I guess if you decide that Sato is bad based on not winning everytime, that's your viewpoint. Not sure anyone should base good or bad on that definition. Sato works in certain scenarios, like the one presented in the link @Ginkapo posted. It's up to individuals to decide. 

 

22 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I did top 10 at uk nationals. Then the Steel Squadron guys and Maturin picked it up, refined it and Shmitty and Truth publizised how to run Sato. Skycake then won a regionals with him. Theres a clear timeline for it. 

I dont think I underatand the hostility on these forums...

I said that OTHER people seem to say that the generel trend in Armada is that Sato was thought to be really good (and thus featured prominently in the meta at one point) and failed hard.

Generally.

And yes, also among highly skill players.

I haven't seen properly analysed data on it, but according to the only set of data I've seen, brought forth by Truthiness and Biggs - Sato underperformed heavily and has since then been almost completely unrepresented in the meta.

Whether that dataset is the basis of or simply supports what I've been led to believe is the general consensus on Sato - that he's bad. I don't know.

Either way, my first entry into this thread was to say that he is NOT as bad as people seem to say in my opinion.

So don't strawman me.

And merry Christmas.

 

P.s. please don't argue against me saying a SINGLE (or a few) case of a decent performance using Sato is relatively irrelevant when it comes to GENERALLY considering powerlevels. That's just not how math works.

If you're arguing - like I am - that Sato has a very specific context in where he might be a potent commander, then sure a few cases of a specific build performing might be relevant to consider as a hypothesis building device - but it isn't PROOF of anything if we're, again, discussing whether that is generalizable.

Edited by Cpt. Caine
Short addition.

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45 minutes ago, Cpt. Caine said:

I haven't seen properly analysed data on it, but according to the only set of data I've seen, brought forth by Truthiness and Biggs - Sato underperformed heavily and has since then been almost completely unrepresented in the meta.

The first part I believe to be accurate.  (I hypothesize the initial reason for his flop was players saw him as a bomber commander like Dodonna or Rieekan, rather than an ordnance commander.)  Note, however, that Truthiness and Bigg’s data set covers the competitive scene; this doesn’t mean he’s seldom seen elsewhere, just that most people didn’t feel comfortable taking him to a major competitive event compared to potentially safer options.  Sato can be a very potent commander (anecdotal personal experience against competitive Sato lists,) but a fleet using him needs to be built well and built around him.  He’s fully capable of killing Sloane, because his squadrons are devoted to staying alive and his budget towards combat ships is greater.  Sloane squadrons are faced with the choice of trying to chase Sato’s bulky/evasive, usually obstructed squads (killing Han or a VCX on an asteroid?  Not fun) and leaving their carriers exposed or trying to hit ships and exposing themselves to flak and opportunistic squadrons.

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I notice the discussion has tipped to the direction of Sato, and while not the primary focus(I guess the thread title was misleading) he is a key component of this list idea. So maybe I'll separate the two:

The Sato: Thanks for pointing out the math behind him, that he only really adds 0.5 expected damage per shot, and focusing on crit effects to get value out of him. I would add that this means he gets more value out of msu lists like cr90/scout hh spam which should get more shots overall. But his black dice are also greatly boosted by Ordnance Experts. Together they add a full 1.0 expected damage which is part of his bonus as an ordnance commander. So maybe I should try to swap in a OE/GT scout hh?

The Liberty title: My initial desire was to make this title work in an interesting way. However it seems like a chain of combos for too little benefit now from what you guys mention. Any other ways to use it? With ahsoka/vet cap I think it can be a squad pusher w/o stopping its main duties, and pushing up the cheap squadron activation limit together with the 2 flotillas and hera.

I'm still intent on trying this idea at least once, so some revision:
Sato Sniper Shotgun (399/400)
===============================
MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 + 67)
    + Commander Sato (32)
    + Ahsoka Tano (2)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Leading Shots (4)
    + Spinal Armament (9)
    + Quad Turbolaser Cannons (10)
    + Liberty (3)
Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 1)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 1)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 1)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 10)
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
    + Bright Hope (2)
Shara Bey (17)
Tycho Celchu (16)
Gold Squadron (12)
3 x Y-wing Squadron (3 x 10)
Precision Strike
Hyperspace assault
Solar Corona

 

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1 hour ago, Muelmuel said:

I notice the discussion has tipped to the direction of Sato, and while not the primary focus(I guess the thread title was misleading) he is a key component of this list idea. So maybe I'll separate the two:

The Sato: Thanks for pointing out the math behind him, that he only really adds 0.5 expected damage per shot, and focusing on crit effects to get value out of him. I would add that this means he gets more value out of msu lists like cr90/scout hh spam which should get more shots overall. But his black dice are also greatly boosted by Ordnance Experts. Together they add a full 1.0 expected damage which is part of his bonus as an ordnance commander. So maybe I should try to swap in a OE/GT scout hh?

The Liberty title: My initial desire was to make this title work in an interesting way. However it seems like a chain of combos for too little benefit now from what you guys mention. Any other ways to use it? With ahsoka/vet cap I think it can be a squad pusher w/o stopping its main duties, and pushing up the cheap squadron activation limit together with the 2 flotillas and hera.

I'm still intent on trying this idea at least once, so some revision:
Sato Sniper Shotgun (399/400)
===============================
MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 + 67)
    + Commander Sato (32)
    + Ahsoka Tano (2)
    + Gunnery Team (7)
    + Leading Shots (4)
    + Spinal Armament (9)
    + Quad Turbolaser Cannons (10)
    + Liberty (3)
Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 1)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 1)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41 + 1)
    + Task Force Organa (1)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 10)
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
    + Bright Hope (2)
Shara Bey (17)
Tycho Celchu (16)
Gold Squadron (12)
3 x Y-wing Squadron (3 x 10)
Precision Strike
Hyperspace assault
Solar Corona

 

For the Liberty title, you could also use a Comms Net flotilla to feed your Liberty tokens. Using Liberty to activate 2 squadrons instead of 1 on a token is a decent idea. I'm unsure how much you'll be able to pull it off and how useful you'll find it (i.e.: if the 2nd squadron cannot do anything useful because of range or other shenanigans). If you're intent on using QTC, why not switch Spinal for H9 to guarantee the double accuracy? It's a 10 point upgrade, I wouldn't leave things to the dice gods. With that said, unless your Meta has a lot of small ships, I would maybe favor XI7 or DTT over QTC. It Also saves you points for...

Another thing you can do with your hammerheads since you have Sato is the Torpedo version with APT, Disposable Capacitors and TFO, which comes in at 45 points. APT gives you superior damage potential and TFO gives you the mandatory rerolls to trigger APT(just be careful with the limitation on TFO). I guess you could drop DCaps if you need the points, but I found it rather useful to ensure the long range crit.

Having multiple APTs gives you a nice opportunity with objectives. With the threat of 3 APTs potentially triggering at long range, you can put in Opening Salvo instead of Precision Strike, which is far more threatening (Also, nobody is going to pick it, ever). I'm also not entirely convinced Hyperspace Assault is worth it. You likely won't put your Liberty in hyperspace (as you wouldn't have Sato's effect until it came into play), so that leaves you a Hammerhead, which isn't a big threat at all. Come to think of it, Solar Corona could be a bit counter intuitive with QTC. If for whatever reason you get turned around to face the corona, you can kiss that accuracy goodbye.

Still think you probably need an Intel in there to help you with the initial push (though it's going to be the primary target most likely). If you can jump from obstacle to obstacle (that's a big if), then maybe you can get away with not bringing it.

Edited by CptAwesomer

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