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Poe Dameron and Debris Gambit

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Poe is equipped with Debris Gambit and is sitting within range 1 of an obstacle.

He performs a focus action and then uses his card ability, spending a charge to perform another action. Can he perform the evade action in this situation as his bonus action?

If so, is the evade action treated as a red action or a white action?

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"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 Icon chargeto perform a white action, treating it as red."

"While you perform a red Icon action evade action, if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, treat the action as white instead."

 

I'm not sure it works. The evade on his bar (added by Debris Gambit) is red.

After he selects it to perform, if there's an obstacle at range 0-1, it becomes white (because it's 'while you perform'), but it's not white before that point - the colour of the action on the bar doesn't 'flicker' depending on his position on the board.

Since Poe's own ability requires a white action to initiate, I don't think he can pick the red evade, even if it would then have become white when resolving it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 Icon chargeto perform a white action, treating it as red."

"While you perform a red Icon action evade action, if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, treat the action as white instead."

 

I'm not sure it works. The evade on his bar (added by Debris Gambit) is red.

After he selects it to perform, if there's an obstacle at range 0-1, it becomes white (because it's 'while you perform'), but it's not white before that point - the colour of the action on the bar doesn't 'flicker' depending on his position on the board.

Since Poe's own ability requires a white action to initiate, I don't think he can pick the red evade, even if it would then have become white when resolving it.

 

Almost.

Because there is an obstacle in the required range, it is, for all intents and purposes, a White Evade action.  Therefore, Poe can trigger Debris Gambit, which reverts to Red due to Poe's ability.

The point of reference is what colour the action is when checking for the difficulty to trigger Poe.

1) Poe uses Focus

2) Check difficulty for Evade action.

3) Is there an obstacle at Range 0-1?  Yes, go to 4 No, go to 5.

4) Perform White Evade as Red due to Poe ability.

5) Do not perform Evade action as it is Red.

6) Resolve ability as assigned during 1-3.

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32 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Because there is an obstacle in the required range, it is, for all intents and purposes, a White Evade action. 

That's where our reading differs, I think. It's not white "for all intents and purposes".

As I understand the wording, It's red until you start performing it, and Poe's ability needs it to be white to start performing it, so you never reach the "while you perform" trigger step.

The action button on the bar always remains red.

 

I dunno. Maybe I'm overthinking this.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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21 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's where our reading differs, I think. It's not white "for all intents and purposes".

As I understand the wording, It's red until you start performing it, and Poe's ability needs it to be white to start performing it, so you never reach the "while you perform" trigger step.

The action button on the bar always remains red.

Concur with this.

But he could just do the evade first.

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if you are guessing range for Debris Gambit using Poe's ability, and are out of range, then, it would be a failed action.  Otherwise, Debris Gambit is pretty clear.  While an Obstacle is at Range 0-1, it's a white Evade.

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36 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

But he could just do the evade first.

Which he can select as his 'normal' action even though it's red, since he has free choice (and which then becomes white when it's performed), followed by any other action (since all the other actions on his bar are white).

Fine. Yes. I guess. If you must politely and intelligently point out blatantly logical and obvious good sense that makes the whole question irrelevant, then go ahead.

You're still a spoilsport. :angry::P

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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But doing the evade first then another action means Poe ends up stressed. I'd taken that as a given.

 

In the event that Debris Gambit does make the second action white (because it's an evade action at 0-1 of an obstacle) then Poe could take both actions with no stress.

But I don't think it works like that, as discussed above. An official confirmation would be nice though.


Thanks for taking the time to add to the discussion guys.

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1 hour ago, timg_83 said:

But doing the evade first then another action means Poe ends up stressed. I'd taken that as a given.

Definitely. The second white action becomes red as per Poe's ability.

1 hour ago, timg_83 said:

In the event that Debris Gambit does make the second action white (because it's an evade action at 0-1 of an obstacle) then Poe could take both actions with no stress.

Disregarding the "can you start the chain" question, that's an interesting one. There is rulebook guidance and 1.0 precedents on what happens when multiple effects changing the difficult of a manoeuvre apply at once, but I'm less sure how two rules affecting the colour of an action simultaneously would apply.

The same question could apply to a First Order squad: General Hux's multi-co-ordinate says "each ship you coordinate must perform the same action, treating that action as red" - for the sake of argument, a pair of Debris Gambit First Order Test Pilots could then both be targets of a co-ordinate and be performing free evade actions - depending on whether Hux or Debris Gambit takes precedence decides the colour.

I know 1.0 had a general "if two effects apply to the difficulty at once, the one making it worse takes priority" but I can't find a 2.0 equivalent.

 

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6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Definitely. The second white action becomes red as per Poe's ability.

Disregarding the "can you start the chain" question, that's an interesting one. There is rulebook guidance and 1.0 precedents on what happens when multiple effects changing the difficult of a manoeuvre apply at once, but I'm less sure how two rules affecting the colour of an action simultaneously would apply.

The same question could apply to a First Order squad: General Hux's multi-co-ordinate says "each ship you coordinate must perform the same action, treating that action as red" - for the sake of argument, a pair of Debris Gambit First Order Test Pilots could then both be targets of a co-ordinate and be performing free evade actions - depending on whether Hux or Debris Gambit takes precedence decides the colour.

I know 1.0 had a general "if two effects apply to the difficulty at once, the one making it worse takes priority" but I can't find a 2.0 equivalent.

 

It's in the Official Rulings thread:

Quote

 

Q: If a ship performs an action and the action is modified by one or more effects that cause the ship to “treat the action as white” and one or more effects that causes the ship to “treat the action as red,” what color is the action?

A: Red. It defaults to the more restrictive color.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

if you are guessing range for Debris Gambit using Poe's ability, and are out of range, then, it would be a failed action.  Otherwise, Debris Gambit is pretty clear.  While an Obstacle is at Range 0-1, it's a white Evade.

debris gambit cannot fail, because you cannot fail an evade action, you just "treat the action as white instead" if debris gambit triggers.

 

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

As I understand the wording, It's red until you start performing it, and Poe's ability needs it to be white to start performing it, so you never reach the "while you perform" trigger step.

The action button on the bar always remains red.

there is no "performing phase". you perform an action or you don't. the action is white or red. if debris gambit triggers the action is white.

see official rulings in this forum: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/277390-x-wing-official-rulings/?do=findComment&comment=3491371

".. Debris Gambit modifies any red evade action on the ship’s action bar .."

 

so you simply check the difficulty of the evade action first and then decide which which action(s) you want to perform in which order..

Edited by Cassan

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Gambit literally starts with "while you perform red <Evade> action (...)and so I'm pretty much convinced the action you decide and declare to perform is a red Evade... 

Can you check for obstacle range before you perform the DG Evade, and decide not to if you're OOR? I was sure you can't, it's a risk / reward card. 

If that would be the case, then the DG Evade should not be available to Poe's PTL ability. The action is red, thought it can conditionally can turn white while being performed. Poe can only select a white action to PTL into. 

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1 hour ago, ryfterek said:

Gambit literally starts with "while you perform red <Evade> action (...)and so I'm pretty much convinced the action you decide and declare to perform is a red Evade... 

Can you check for obstacle range before you perform the DG Evade, and decide not to if you're OOR? I was sure you can't, it's a risk / reward card. 

If that would be the case, then the DG Evade should not be available to Poe's PTL ability. The action is red, thought it can conditionally can turn white while being performed. Poe can only select a white action to PTL into. 

This is my thinking too. When Poe chooses to do a second action, the Evade is still red, as you have not measured to any obstacles yet. Therefore he can't select it legally.

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18 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

This is my thinking too. When Poe chooses to do a second action, the Evade is still red, as you have not measured to any obstacles yet. Therefore he can't select it legally.

Yes, but go read the Qi'Ra thread, for a lot of people while is checked before the effect...

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21 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

This is my thinking too. When Poe chooses to do a second action, the Evade is still red, as you have not measured to any obstacles yet. Therefore he can't select it legally.

if you are in range for debris gambit to trigger the evade action is not red before measuring and then turns white just because you measured.

its either white or red given a specific context. and because an evade action cannot fail, its not a risk/reward card. you just have to measure to confirm that you are actually in range for debris gambit to trigger.

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Just now, Cassan said:

if you are in range for debris gambit to trigger the evade action is not red before measuring and then turns white just because you measured.

its either white or red given a specific context. and because an evade action cannot fail, its not a risk/reward card. you just have to measure to confirm that you are actually in range for debris gambit to trigger.

Whereas I feel that you would only measure for it when you choose to do it, and Poe CAN NOT choose to do a red action. It's red on your card UNTIL you know in-game that you are at range 1 of an obstacle, which happens because you measure, which happens when you are doing the action.

 

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15 minutes ago, Cassan said:

its either white or red given a specific context.

The evade action from debris gambit is always red. The card text allows the ship to "treat it" as white but does not "change it" to white. If debris gambit changed it to white, the card would be worded differently, something like "if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, you may perform a white evade action instead of a red evade action."

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11 minutes ago, Nspace said:

The evade action from debris gambit is always red. The card text allows the ship to "treat it" as white but does not "change it" to white. If debris gambit changed it to white, the card would be worded differently, something like "if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, you may perform a white evade action instead of a red evade action."

how is the action red if you treat it as white? i never used the word "change".

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Just now, svelok said:

Debris gambit is "while you perform a red [evade] action". Poe is "perform a white action".

You can't both perform a white action and be in the process of performing a red action.

THIS! This is all I'm talking about. You are performing a red Evade action, no matter how obviously close you are to a rock. It THEN gets made white when you measure. But you still started out by performing a red evade action.

Which Poe's ability forbids.

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50 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

It's red on your card UNTIL you know in-game that you are at range 1 of an obstacle, which happens because you measure, which happens when you are doing the action.

 

6 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

You are performing a red Evade action, no matter how obviously close you are to a rock. It THEN gets made white when you measure.

there is no switch that turns a red action into a white action by measuring. it simply is white if you are in range for debris gambit.

see official rulings in this forum:

Quote

Q: If a ship has red evade linked to another action (such as the TIE Aggressor or Attack Shuttle), Debris Gambit [Talent] equipped, and is within range of an obstacle, does it treat the linked red evade as white?

A: Yes, Debris Gambit modifies any red evade action on the ship’s action bar, including linked actions.

the red evade action is modified to be treated as white, if a ship is within range of an obstacle. no measuring mentioned anywhere.

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