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Poe Dameron and Debris Gambit

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20 minutes ago, Cassan said:

(...) no measuring mentioned anywhere.

 

Except on the Debris Gambit card itself? 

The ruling you're quoting above has the purpose of explaining if DG text applies to ANY red Evade action you're taking or JUST the red Evade action granted by DG.

1 hour ago, Cassan said:

(...) its not a risk/reward card (...)

It's literally a gambit by its own name, so... 

But, to put another argument on the board, here's food for thought - by your logic, WHEN do we measure for the range to an obstacle to decide what colour would it be? Do you:

  1. 'Randomly' measure ranges with the justification of "hey, imma do the Evade in a moment, need to check" before deciding on taking the evade action;
  2. Decide to perform the evade, declare it as your action and then proceed to measure ranges;

If 1 - DG abuses the rules and allows for free range measurements. This abuses the very intent game designers had in mind while re-writing the lock action (in 1.0 the abusive exploit took place where players would declare TL on obviously out-of-range targets just to fail it, but get to measure the range to some more ambiguously positioned ship). One could gain information on the range to the enemy ship before declaring the Lock action and decide against taking it if they see they're not actually in range. 

if 2 - what colour would the Evade just right before you put down your range ruler to measure the range? How would you decide whether or not any current / future / possible effect saying "you can only perform white actions" applies in your situation in the first place? You wouldn't be able to tell if the action is forbidden before measuring, but if you'd have to measure in advance - see point 1. 

Edited by ryfterek

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5 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

But why would you be checking if you aren't selecting the evade as an action? Just randomly?

Have you looked at the Qi'Ra thread, people argue that you can attack on Asteroid because the "while attacking" apply before you are attacking so it by pass the "Can't attack" of the rock... Same thing here, people argue that the while doing action happen before you are doing the action...

These two are the same thing, people want the while to happen before the effect so they can ignore a requirement.

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Just now, muribundi said:

Have you looked at the Qi'Ra thread, people argue that you can attack on Asteroid because the "while attacking" apply before you are attacking so it by pass the "Can't attack" of the rock... Same thing here, people argue that the while doing action happen before you are doing the action...

These two are the same thing, people want the while to happen before the effect so they can ignore a requirement.

Nope, because I honestly STILL don't get it, and won't be using her card anyway lol

But this seems very cut and dry to me.

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poe says

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 (charge) to perform a white action, treating it as red."

debris gambit says:

"While you perform a red (evade) action, if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, treat the action as white instead."

(adds red evade action)


the evade action is red at the timing poe tries to choose to use it, so it doesn't work. the fact that you can use debris gambit to treat the action as white if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle happens while you perform the action. it's not available as a white action before that, and so poe can't use his ability to perform it.

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6 hours ago, ryfterek said:

Except on the Debris Gambit card itself? 

what did i miss? there is no "measure-trigger" on the card..

6 hours ago, ryfterek said:

It's literally a gambit by its own name, so... 

.. so, no argument there.

6 hours ago, ryfterek said:

WHEN do we measure for the range to an obstacle to decide what colour would it be?

when you decide to perform the action and need to know which difficulty it is, because if its red you couldnt perform it at all (as the evade action cannot fail).

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6 hours ago, Cassan said:

what did i miss? there is no "measure-trigger" on the card..

"Measure-trigger" as in "this right here is when you measure range"? 

"While you perform a red Icon action evade.png action, if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, treat the action as white instead."

"While you perform a red Icon action evade.png action, if there is an obstacle at range 0-1, (...)"

"While you perform a red Icon action evade.png action, (...)"

"(...) perform a red Icon action evade.png action (...)"

I really, really don't get how are you supposed to be able to use it with Poe who only allows you to "perform white action". You've got to be in the process of performing the red Evade in the first place to have DG kick in. You cannot initiate this process out of Poe's ability. I assume, by your logic, that you'll argue one would still declare it, measure it, and if it fails to trigger, will have to "failsafe" to another action? 

This solution is, first of all, abusive, as I've explained before, allowing for "free" range measurements without consequences (as long as you know you're out of range of obstacles you can purposefully insist on doing the Gambit Evade just to fail to declare it). Secondly, it's against the spirit of all bunch of changes dev team introduced in 2.0. We got out of the era of the "ops, it doesn't fit, so I'll do..." actions. Lock has been reworked to be risky. Boost and Roll have been reworked...

What if DG gave you an action from the "failable" list? What would have to happen? 

The key is not to misinterpret the "while" timing window. As some have stated before in this thread, it seems to be wider (mis)conception that "while" applies even before the event it is describing. But isn't it more logical to interpret it as "during", as in "during the event described is taking place"? 

Let's take a look at Crackshot. The card reads:

"While you perform a primary weapon attack, if the defender is in your Icon arc bullseye.png, before the Neutralize Results step, you may spend one Icon charge.png to cancel one Icon action evade.png result."

I hope it's impossible to argue that "while" bit of the card text makes the effect trigger before the event described i.e. performing a primary weapon attack. At this point there are no dice to fiddle with. Ergo, "while you XYZ" on Crack Shot doesn't read as "when you're about to XYZ" but rather "as long as you are XYZ". Hope we all agree on that, because otherwise pretty popular Crackshot would have to be a dead card. 

Now, "while" could in fact read differently on different card and mean different things, depending on whether or not it enables a cool AF gimmicks to the card-owning player, but, honestly, why should it? Isn't it an itsy bitsy wishful thinking?

By Crackshot's example, "while" timing window explains what has to be happening during the game (you are attacking someone, you're defending against someone, you're stressed, you're drunk) for the following effect to be applicable. 

In case of DG, this event taking place then is the process of performing a red Evade action. Something you cannot make happen using Poe's ability, as it is only wired to your white actions.

PS. Terribly sorry for the massive font, pasted some bits form wiki, it enlarged the font and I don't seem to have control over this part of styling on my mobile. 

Edited by ryfterek

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1 hour ago, ryfterek said:

I hope it's impossible to argue that "while" bit of the card text makes the effect trigger before the event described

i never argued that "while" means "before".

debris gambit tells you to treat the action as white for the whole duration of the action (while performing it) with every little substep there might be from start to end.

you are telling me you have to be "in the process of performing the red Evade" to trigger debris gambit, but you just cannot be in that state, because you treat the action as white (while performing it).

this has two implications imho:

- the action is actually white (so you can use it with poe)

- you have to measure before deciding which action to perform, just to know which actions are actually available to you in this context.

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Don't forget, if you are hugging an Asteroid, you are going to KNOW what the range is.  

If you are CLEARLY inside R1, what colour is Debris Gambit?  Here's a hint.  FFG said it was white.

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37 minutes ago, Cassan said:

debris gambit tells you to treat the action as white for the whole duration of the action (while performing it) 

Still, it explicitly asks you to be "performing a red <Evade> action" to trigger.

I'd figure your approach is based on the 'replacement effects' rules from the RR, causing the whole effect to be replaced in the process? Still, this rule depends on the first effect to be legitimate to happen in the first place, so I'd interpret. You can only replace an effect with another if the effect being replaced was happening in the first place, don't you? A Rebel ship that would have a "you cannot gain focus tokens" ability shouldn't be able to gain evade token instead via Jyn Erso:

"If a friendly ship at range 0-3 would gain a focus token, it may gain 1 evade token instead."

because the ship would not be legitimate to gain the focus token in the first place as it would be forbidden to it. 

37 minutes ago, Cassan said:

- you have to measure before deciding which action to perform, just to know which actions are actually available to you in this context.

This would be an abusive operation and as a local TO I would clearly rule out any ambiguous interaction leading to it, as it's clearly against the spirit of the changes in rules introduced with the Second Edition.  

Also, you're already contradicting yourself from one of the previous responses, where you've said you'd measure once you've already decided you'll be performing an Evade action.

Edited by ryfterek

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13 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

1911486992_Screenshot2018-12-21at09_31_49.png.7d7dc0fb642da75c2d1b38cbba7b0ee5.png

Where does this clarification clearly state that the action is white when it's "obvious" DG would trigger? I'm afraid you're overanalysing this response. I've pointed it out somewhere above - the only clear outtake from this response is to clarify whether or not DG apply only to the red Evade it adds to your action bar, or to each red Evade you happen to have on your action bar, including printed actions (e.g. Quadjumper), linked actions (e.g. Attack Shuttle), and other cards (e.g. resistance Han Solo [crew]).

The question has been answered mainly due to ambiguous interaction with Sabine in Attack Shuttle, as players were not sure if pre-manoeuvre BR into linked Evade (while in R1 to an obstacle) to a red manoeuvre is a legitimate operation or not. 

Edited by ryfterek

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It says the action is modified.  it doesn't say with what timing it's modified.

It's intending to clarify that DG works on linked evades, not just the red evade on the bar.

It's saying nothing about timing and was written before Poe existed.  Don't extrapolate meaning that was not intended.

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why is timing even a thing when talking about the difficulty of actions?

an action is either red or white. you cant start a red action and turn it midway into a white action.

it is "treated as white while it is performed". the action itself doesnt exist outside it being performed. so its white "the whole time".

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42 minutes ago, Cassan said:

action is either red or white. you cant start a red action and turn it midway into a white action.

Any effect saying "while you perform barrel roll action you may perform boost action instead", however unnecessary could seem, would do exactly that. You declare BR, you trigger the ability. After the trigger, you don't finish performing the BR and perform Boost instead of it. 

Yet it would have an effect that you wouldn't be able to BR into BR-replaced-by-Boost because you're not allowed to perform the same action twice in a turn. 

42 minutes ago, Cassan said:

an action is either red or white

DG Evade is printed as red. It cannot turn white until you confirm range. As there is no such thing in X-wing as measuring range on demand, you have to proc an effect/ability granting you range measurement possibility. 

DG procs during the Evade is being executed, and you agree on it yourself.

2 hours ago, Cassan said:

i never argued that "while" means "before".

So you have to be performing an Evade to get to DG's ability text. To do that, you have to declare an Evade action from your action bar. The only Evade action on Poe's action bar is red Evade action. 

You perform red Evade action -> DG triggers "while you perform red Evade action" -> conditions are checked (measure range here) -> conditions are met -> DG replacement effect takes place -> you are now performing white Evade action

If it wouldn't work like that, DG gets into "grandfather's paradox". It procs while you execute red action. But it replaces it whole to white before you execute it. So you're not performing red action after all. But if you're not, DG shouldn't have triggered out of performing red action. So your action isn't replaced to white. So it's red, so you perform red action. Now get back to the beginning of the paragraph. Enjoy your infinity spent on the forum.

FFfnIbi.gif

To break the spell, you have to be performing red action at some point because that's the point where DG gets to trigger. 

Poe cannot PTL into red action.

Edited by ryfterek

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Others have put it more eloquently, but this is pretty clear cut. You have to have already selected the red evade provided by Debris Gambit to check the condition for treating it as white, ergo you cannot 'Poe The Limit' into said evade, since it is not a white action. It's similar to the misconception that arose around Engine Upgrade and Expert Handling - they do not 'upgrade' the existing red Boost/Barrel Roll action into a white one, but rather add a white version of those actions if the condition (having a red version) is met.

Cards like these have been worded very specifically for this reason, and need to be properly read before qualifying their interactions with other mechanics, rather than just assuming a blanket 'red action becomes white action'.

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1 hour ago, Cassan said:

why is timing even a thing when talking about the difficulty of actions?

an action is either red or white. you cant start a red action and turn it midway into a white action.

it is "treated as white while it is performed". the action itself doesnt exist outside it being performed. so its white "the whole time".

Trying to come up with an equivalent example in a separate X-wing setting.

Okay...... Here we go. I'm reaching back into 1.0, so apologies.

Countess Ryad has taken a critical hit. The face-up damage card is Shaken Pilot. (Which isn't in the 2.0 deck)

For the sake of having the rules quote:

Countess Ryad

"When you reveal a [Straight] maneuver, you may treat it as a [K-Turn] manoeuvre."

Shaken Pilot

"During the Planning phase, you cannot be assigned straight manoeuvres."

 

When you reveal a straight on her dial, Ryad never executes a straight, she executes a K-turn, which is entirely legal with Shaken Pilot. But you still can't 'dial in' a straight in the first place.

 

Similarly, Poe's ability instructs me to look for a white action 'button' on his action bar. I know that if I press the Red Evade button, I'll actually get a White evade (which Poe's ability turns red again, but that doesn't matter). But at the moment, the button is still red, so I have to skip over it in favour of Boost, or Target Lock, or something.

If Debris Gambit said it changed the colour of the action on the action bar, I'd agree, but it doesn't.

 

Re:

Failing actions - once you declare "I'm doing XYZ" you're locked into it until you complete it or it fails. I agree evade cannot fail, since it's not listed as an action which can fail.

If the action cannot fail, logically the rules cannot put you in a position where you can fail to complete the action.

But you definitely cannot measure distances on the board state without a specific trigger, so why can you measure the range to the nearest obstacle before you declare evade as your choice of action? (Note - I think that seems wrong, others may disagree)

If you can't, then (to me! feel free to disagree!) that must occur 'after' you've pressed the evade 'button' and are committed to it. Meaning to avoid ever failing being an option you can only press it in the first place if you were entitled to press a red evade 'button' and you've just gotten a better result than you expected.

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2 hours ago, Cassan said:

why is timing even a thing when talking about the difficulty of actions?

an action is either red or white. you cant start a red action and turn it midway into a white action.

it is "treated as white while it is performed". the action itself doesnt exist outside it being performed. so its white "the whole time".

You can tho.  It's exactly what Debris Gambit DOES.  It's written on the card.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You can tho.  It's exactly what Debris Gambit DOES.  It's written on the card. 

debris gambit is a replacement effect. there never was a red evade. btw:

image.png.22f2a218069bbc53cf1f08e56987e64f.png

no red-then-white-actions.

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

..you don't finish performing the BR..

again: debris gambit is a replacement effect. you dont even start to perform the BR. it never occured.

image.png.72822a40c2e482ca0f0ec30422ec86a8.png

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

Yet it would have an effect that you wouldn't be able to BR into BR-replaced-by-Boost because you're not allowed to perform the same action twice in a turn.

sure you can. see above.

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

DG Evade is printed as red. It cannot turn white until you confirm range.

there is a difference between symbols on your action bar and the action that you actually perform. the printed evade is red - correct. and it stays red. but the action you are performing is white.

and thats the requirement for poe: "you may perform a white action".

2 hours ago, ryfterek said:

So you have to be performing an Evade to get to DG's ability text.

you dont have to do anything to "get the text". you "have it", because you have the upgrade equipped.

 

please look at the poe/daredevil thread for a similar discussion just the other way round:

 

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2 hours ago, Cassan said:

the action itself doesnt exist outside it being performed.

Decided to inspect this statement using the RR and I'd conclude that performing an action is a process that takes place in time and can have triggers, condition checks and effects take place and apply in between declaring the action and having it performed. The strong example being the Coordinate action. By RR p.8, Coordinate is defined:

Quote

coordinating ship is a ship that is attempting to coordinate by performing the following steps:

  1.  Measure range from the coordinating ship to any friendly ships.
  2.  Choose another friendly ship at range 1–2.
  3.  The chosen ship performs one action.

Aditionally:

  • While a ship coordinates, the coordinate fails if no friendly ship can be chosen.
    • If the chosen ship attempts to perform an action but that action fails, the coordinate does not fail.
 

 The last step of the Coordinate happening is for the selected ship to perform a single action. While the effect of this action does not influence the success/failure of the Coordinate itself, the act of coordinating is only finished once the chosen ship performs an action. It is at point 3 of the flow when the coordinated ship selects an action to perform, and conditions can be checked as well at this point (see: Squad Leader: "While you coordinate, the ship you choose can perform an action only if that action is also on your action bar."). 

Coordinate is by far more complex in definition than Evade, yet quite clear in establishing that performing an action is/can be an ongoing process which can be interrupted and modified while happening. For example, in an unlikely event of a ship having both native Coordinate and Squad Leader, while performing the native Coordinate the 3rd step of Coordinate will be interrupted and modified by an external factor (SL) because the trigger is applicable. The coordinated ship will be forbidden to perform certain actions. It will all happen while the Coordinate is being performed. So an action being performed can and does exist outside of the act of performing itself and can be interacted with. 

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5 minutes ago, ryfterek said:

So an action being performed can and does exist outside of the act of performing itself

no it does not. where did that conclusion come from?

what we are talking about is the difficulty of the action you are performing. and the difficulty is EITHER WHITE OR RED. not both. or mostly red. or red at the beginning:

image.png.9f2c590f71cb2f1275566be961573ebf.png

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How is that even a question?

You start a red evade. Period. Then, depending on circumstances, that color might change. But it always started as red evade. You have to measure range to determine whether you are in range 0-1 (and no, eyeballing does not officially work. You'd have to measure every time to confirm) and then the action turns white.

Poe requires a white action. The debris gambit evade never starts as white evade.

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17 minutes ago, Cassan said:

please look at the poe/daredevil thread for a similar discussion just the other way round:

This discussion is just as inconclusive as the one we're having so it should not be an argument for either of the sides. Also, it has a slightly different underlying question - can two effects use the same valid initial condition to change it to an invalid condition, happening at the same time? 

Replacement effects ruling you're quoting yourself mentions two important things:

  1. "They resolve at the timing of the effect they are replacing" -> The effect being replaced has to take place and occupy some timing in the first place, so the replacement effect can be placed in this timing instead.
  2. "When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as having not occurred." -> It is only when the replacement effect resolves when we disregard the initial effect. I've never stood the ground that DG in obstacle's range leads to a red Evade being performed. I'm only arguing that there has to be a red Evade event taking place, to be then modified to be treated as white.
9 minutes ago, Cassan said:

no it does not. where did that conclusion come from?

I'm sorry to be salty mate, but I've just written a whole post leading to this conclusion, so be kind enough to read it with minimal understanding rather than just scout it for the catchphrases you disagree with. I've presented you my logic leading to this conclusion, you're free to question this logic or point out any flaws within it. But straight out ignoring the whole of it is rude of you. 

9 minutes ago, Cassan said:

EITHER WHITE OR RED. not both. or mostly red. or red at the beginning:

Not arguing the difficulty of the action we end up resolving with DG is a mixed shade of red. You declare red Evade. You trigger DG. You are entitled to replace the red Evade with white Evade. You perform white Evade. From now on, we act as if the red Evade never happened, we don't talk about it. It was cancelled, dismissed, ignored. The only thing that really happened was the white Evade.

But you have to get to the bolded bit in the first place. Poe is not a fortune teller and cannot predict the 'illegal' red Evade will become 'legal' after all. Therefore he cannot choose to PTL it. 

Edited by ryfterek

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