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Dragon_King

Petty Officer Thanisson&Captain Phasma

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3 hours ago, Cassan said:

i didnt torture anything - ffg did.

That's imply not a true statement about reality.

This is the thing in these rules forums which **** me off the most is that people cannot accept that it is *their own interpretation* rather than something from FFG.  Did FFG say specifically this?  No, they didn't.  You are parsing a section on effect timing, and expanding one interpretation of it into a broader statement about game phases.

But folks don't want to take responsibility for their own interpretation.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

If these sorts of things are meant to work together then, hopefully, FFG will redefine their timing rules to explicitly include before/after inside of while.

FFG doesn't need to redefine their timing.  FFG has not told us anything on Phasma and Thannison.  They haven't issued some ruling in a FAQ on their interaction.  If they had, then we could say "it would be better if FFG redefined their timing rules." But that hasn't happened.  Instead, a proper description of reality is that some folks onhere have come to an interpretation where "during" a phase is over before the phase is over.  FFG did not tell us this.  People decided this is the interpretation they prefer.

And this is what I meant above by this:

On 12/19/2018 at 9:33 AM, theBitterFig said:

I'm not sure.  On the surface, they seem close enough, but I haven't tried to look at broader implications.

"In the phase, but not during the phase" is exactly the type of silly interpretation I meant by broader implications.  I can't even call it an interpretation which is absurdly literalist, because it doesn't even make sense as a literal reading, not just of the rules, but of language.

If something is in a phase, it is during the phase, for any sane understanding of the word during.

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Refresh for anyone jumping to the second page, this is a direct copy-paste from the Rules Reference (1.0.2) p18

On 12/18/2018 at 6:49 PM, nitrobenz said:

There are several terms that are used to indicate the specific timing of an effect:

• Before: The effect resolves immediately preceding the timing specified.
• At the start of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step. The effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step.
• While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied.

• At the end of: This timing is used with a specific phase or step of ship’s activation. This effect triggers after the normal effects of that phase or step have occurred.
• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified.

@theBitterFig thank you for continuing to debate here. I went back and re-read this section and noticed a discretion between at the start and at the end. Which I think needs a closer examination ( @Cassan, @Rettere

at the start does say it happens before anything in the phase, whereas at the end specifically says it triggers after the normal effects of that phase. (emphasis on normal effects) Therefore, this assumption:

On 12/19/2018 at 7:47 AM, Rettere said:

...Since 'at the start of' is during the phase but has to occur "before anything else", its conceivable that "at the end of" has to occur after everything else...

- is wrong! (even though it had convinced me) 

I am now team pro-combo because Thannison is not a normal effect so the rules will not stop him from continuing to work at the end of the relevant phases.

Edited by nitrobenz
Proof read

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of course it works, why wouldn't it? "at the end of" is still during the engagement phase. thanisson triggers after a ship receives a red or orange token, as long as it's during the activation or engagement. phasma hands out stress at the end of (still during) the engagement phase. yes, "at the start of", "while" and "at the end of" are different timings in a phase, but they are still the same phase during a round, in this case the engagement phase.

there is nothing indicating it wouldn't work on the cards or in the rules reference, so it works.

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

If something is in a phase, it is during the phase, for any sane understanding of the word during.

well thats your interpretation.. can you make an argument why you think its correct this way? (besides calling everthing ridiculous, irresponsible, silly and absurd, which **** you off)

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39 minutes ago, meffo said:

of course it works, why wouldn't it? "at the end of" is still during the engagement phase. thanisson triggers after a ship receives a red or orange token, as long as it's during the activation or engagement. phasma hands out stress at the end of (still during) the engagement phase. yes, "at the start of", "while" and "at the end of" are different timings in a phase, but they are still the same phase during a round, in this case the engagement phase.

there is nothing indicating it wouldn't work on the cards or in the rules reference, so it works.

image.png.b7f84f3c9def8ec951de9a0c67e0b177.png

"before anything occurs during that phase" is an indicator for me.

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13 hours ago, Cassan said:

well thats your interpretation.. can you make an argument why you think its correct this way? (besides calling everthing ridiculous, irresponsible, silly and absurd, which **** you off)

Just the normal usage of the word during.

  • At the end of cooking my steak, I tilt the pan and spoon the butter in the pan over the steak.  I spooned butter on my steak during the cooking process.
  • At the end of my trip to the store, I took the keys out of my car.  I took the keys out of my car during my trip to the store.
    • edit for clarity: my point was that if the first sentence is true, the second sentence must also be true. It doesn't need to convey exactly the same meaning, but that the event happened within the time period at some point.

If it occurs at some point within the described time interval, it occurs during that span of time.

From the other direction: there'd be no way I could make sense of a sentence like: "Star Wars debuted in the 70s, but it didn't debut during the 70s."

There's another common usage for 'during' meaning for the entire time interval.  "I lived at home during high school," for example.  But even that doesn't allow for something to happen in the interval, but not during it, since in this usage 'during' covers everything, and there's no point in time where something could be in the interval, yet not during the interval.

Edited by theBitterFig

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6 minutes ago, Cassan said:

image.png.b7f84f3c9def8ec951de9a0c67e0b177.png

"before anything occurs during that phase" is an indicator for me.

except, this question has nothing to do with "at the start of" at all. it's "at the end of" and "during".

also, lots of things can trigger "at the start of" an game phase - or are you implying that all effects that share a timing happens simultaneously?

in general, things that share a timing happens in this order: game effects, first players effects, second players effect

if a player has several effects that happen at the same time, that player get to choose in which order those effects trigger.

petty officer thanisson triggers "after" a ship receives a red or orange token. "after" is a very specific timing.
(from page 18 of the rules reference)"After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."
 

"during" is not a specified timing in the rules, it's simply an english word. from merriam webster:

during

preposition

Definition of during 

1: throughout the duration of - swims every day during the summer

2: at a point in the course of - was offered a job during a visit to the capital


the different game phases are clearly described in the rules reference. "at the end of" is for all intents and purposes still during what ever thing it's at the end of. there is nothing anywhere in the rules to dispute this - and it would be illogical to assume something that could happen during a phase couldn't happen at the end of said phase (or during the end of, for that matter), simply because of how the term is defined in english.

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Just now, theBitterFig said:

Just the normal usage of the word during.

thats what i thought at first too.. easy. just use common sense. but the timing chapter in the rrg made me doubt it.

too bad we are talking about a game where words can often mean anything in contrast to common sense.

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20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Just the normal usage of the word during.

Funny that you bring the normal usage of a word here, but in the Qi'Ra thread, you are arguing against the normal usage of the word "while"

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39 minutes ago, meffo said:

in general, things that share a timing happens in this order: game effects, first players effects, second players effect

if a player has several effects that happen at the same time, that player get to choose in which order those effects trigger.

correct.

39 minutes ago, meffo said:

petty officer thanisson triggers "after" a ship receives a red or orange token. "after" is a very specific timing.
(from page 18 of the rules reference)"After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."

yeah, but thats not the complete text. the text starts with: "During the (..) Engagement Phase.."

39 minutes ago, meffo said:

"during" is not a specified timing in the rules

it is. again see (just as an example of the usage - i know thannison is not triggering at the start of a phase):

 image.png.343339b024b1c9075f5c95cc0c9ebbb1.png

there are effects that MUST trigger before ANYTHING occurs DURING a phase.

too bad the "end of phase"-timing is worded differently for no reason using undefined terms like "normal effects":

image.png.2d63362eaa2e4ae6df0a822724a08c31.png

 

at least we know that there are effects that MUST trigger AFTER other certain "normal effects" trigger.

Edited by Cassan

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8 hours ago, muribundi said:

Funny that you bring the normal usage of a word here, but in the Qi'Ra thread, you are arguing against the normal usage of the word "while"

read again. we are on the same page. i think qi'ra cannot attack while sitting on an asteroid.

but please let us not hijack this thread..

Edited by Cassan
sorry, thought you were quoting me

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14 minutes ago, muribundi said:

Funny that you bring the normal usage of a word here, but in the Qi'Ra thread, you are arguing against the normal usage of the word "while"

I don't see it that way.

My argument in the Qi'ra thread is that becoming the attacker is part of the entire process of attacking.  That becoming the attacker is still part of the while, and not part of the before.  I see becoming the attacker as happening at January 1st, 12:00 AM, part of the "while in the new year," part of the "during new year," not something before the new year.  My sense is that some folks view the attack as starting before the new year in December 31st, 11:59 PM.  I disagree with that--what it means to be attacking.

In a lot of ways, my interpretation in either Qi'ra or Phasma/Thannison is similar: the endpoints are included in the whole, rather than separate from the whole.

33 minutes ago, Cassan said:

thats what i thought at first too.. easy. just use common sense. but the timing chapter in the rrg made me doubt it.

too bad we are talking about a game where words can often mean anything in contrast to common sense.

All I can say is that a good number of folks have read the same passages, and not had the same doubts.

"During" as a separate sub-phase seems like a really expansive interpretation of those passages to me.  It's the 17th word in the "At the Start of" section, the 41st word of "While," never shows up in "At the End of," and never appears bolded in any case.  I have trouble looking at that and saying that it's a clearly specified timing.

Meanwhile, I think there's a decent enough off-ramp, with two sentences.  First, while is described as "less specific than other timings," and second that "additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied."  I think that could be taken as a path out of the quagmire of "in the phase, but not during the phase," out of "true, but false."  That while being "less specific" means "during" is a loose-enough pair of sweatpants that it can stretch to include the end, since otherwise it becomes some sort of epistemological zombie, dead and alive, true and false, "in the phase, but not during the phase."  There have clearly been zombies in X-Wing before (1e Grand Inquisitor, 2e Han Solo "not-a-reroll"), but if we have a choice not to create one, I think we ought to take it.  There hasn't been an official ruling that Phasma cannot trigger Thanisson because the end is not during the phase, only our own interpretation of the interaction.

Anyhow, I've got to start making some pizza dough for tomorrow.

I'll leave with Janet, who is not a person, and not a robot.

tenor.gif?itemid=11684799

giphy.gif

❤️ Janet.

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21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That becoming the attacker is still part of the while, and not part of the before

So your are attacking before being the attacker, totally make sense using common english... yep...

And we are not seeing being in the new year at 11h59...

An Asteroid tell you, "You can't pass to the new year", and Qi'Ra says, if you are in the new year you can ignore the negative effect of being in a new year. If you can't pass to the new year, you are never in the new year... You can't check on first of January if you have the right to go to the new year, you are already in the new year...

Edited by muribundi

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Because there is no step any where right now in the attacking phase that say: Check if you have the right to be an attacker, we must do exactly like you say here and use common english. In normal english, you can't be while attacking without being also an attacker.

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3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Just the normal usage of the word during.

  • At the end of cooking my steak, I tilt the pan and spoon the butter in the pan over the steak.  I spooned butter on my steak during the cooking process.
  • At the end of my trip to the store, I took the keys out of my car.  I took the keys out of my car during my trip to the store.

If it occurs at some point within the described time interval, it occurs during that span of time.

 

Actually two bad examples. In the first, cooking is done and you're now in plating and presentation. 

The second one is more obvious. The first sentence is correct. After the errand was run and you were back home, you removed the keys. Though it could be you removed the keys when you got to the store. The second sentence leaves open the interpretation the keys were removed on your way to the store while you were still driving.

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7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

There hasn't been an official ruling that Phasma cannot trigger Thanisson because the end is not during the phase, only our own interpretation of the interaction.

true. we just need a cleaned up the "timing" chapter with consistent wording and an additional "during a phase" definition.

just to be clear, i really think "during a phase" should explicitly include the start and end.

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9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

 

@muribundi As I said, we just understand "while attacking" differently.  I see it as one continuous thing, you don't.

I never said it is not a continuous thing, it is, but you still need to become an attacker to be while attacking. You can be while a state without being that state...

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8 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Actually two bad examples. In the first, cooking is done and you're now in plating and presentation. 

The second one is more obvious. The first sentence is correct. After the errand was run and you were back home, you removed the keys. Though it could be you removed the keys when you got to the store. The second sentence leaves open the interpretation the keys were removed on your way to the store while you were still driving.

I guess I picked weak examples, since the examples didn't convey what I intended to convey.  But I stand by their truth.

Basting a steak, as I intended to convey.  I'd still call this part of the cooking process.  But it wasn't an effective example, since this wasn't the image it brought up in your mind.

20180822-butter-basting-steak-fish-liz-c

With the second example (trip to the store, removing the keys), my point was that if the first sentence was true, the second sentence was also true.  The second sentence doesn't have to fully explain the events of the first statement, but it must be true, given the meaning of the word "during."

15 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Refresh for anyone jumping to the second page, this is a direct copy-paste from the Rules Reference (1.0.2) p18

@theBitterFig thank you for continuing to debate here. I went back and re-read this section and noticed a discretion between at the start and at the end. Which I think needs a closer examination ( @Cassan, @Rettere

at the start does say it happens before anything in the phase, whereas at the end specifically says it triggers after the normal effects of that phase. (emphasis on normal effects) Therefore, this assumption:

- is wrong! (even though it had convinced me) 

I am now team pro-combo because Thannison is not a normal effect so the rules will not stop her from continuing to work at the end of the relevant phases.

Emphasis added.  I think this is also a really interesting off-ramp.  Normal effects of the engagement phase are engaging and attacking.

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@theBitterFig that picture of the steak isn't what came to mind but it looks real good!

I still have to diagree on the store trip example. Newer cars are designed to prevent key removal during a trip, as in when the car is in motion. A safety feature to keep kids like me from pranking their dads. Something i did when very young. Not a good thing to do at 55.

Part of the problem is when common words are used to convey a specific meaning. The devopers know what they intended to say but their intimate knowledge of the product sometimes causes a little confusion, hence the discussions of RAW vs RAI. The old adage of "Familiarity breeds contempt" routine. 

I can see the argument from both sides and the one for Thanisson working is slightly stronger than the one against IMHO, it may not be the right one.

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7 hours ago, Stoneface said:

@theBitterFig that picture of the steak isn't what came to mind but it looks real good!

I still have to diagree on the store trip example. Newer cars are designed to prevent key removal during a trip, as in when the car is in motion. A safety feature to keep kids like me from pranking their dads. Something i did when very young. Not a good thing to do at 55.

Part of the problem is when common words are used to convey a specific meaning. The devopers know what they intended to say but their intimate knowledge of the product sometimes causes a little confusion, hence the discussions of RAW vs RAI. The old adage of "Familiarity breeds contempt" routine. 

I can see the argument from both sides and the one for Thanisson working is slightly stronger than the one against IMHO, it may not be the right one.

I guess I'd just make a distinction between "while driving" (While Attacking) and "during the trip" (During the Engagement Phase).

But as I said, I suppose the examples didn't really convey my point.

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On 12/21/2018 at 1:52 AM, Cassan said:

correct.

yeah, but thats not the complete text. the text starts with: "During the (..) Engagement Phase.."

it is. again see (just as an example of the usage - i know thannison is not triggering at the start of a phase):

 image.png.343339b024b1c9075f5c95cc0c9ebbb1.png

there are effects that MUST trigger before ANYTHING occurs DURING a phase.

too bad the "end of phase"-timing is worded differently for no reason using undefined terms like "normal effects":

image.png.2d63362eaa2e4ae6df0a822724a08c31.png

 

at least we know that there are effects that MUST trigger AFTER other certain "normal effects" trigger.

yup, that's the only timings the specified timing comes up at, it's a restriction of the timing of the effect. how ever, it's not the specific timing, just a restriction of when the specific timing occurs.

no - "during" is definitely not a specified game term, it's just a word used 113 times throughout the rules reference in different contexts. since it's not a game term, we have to fall back on the regular definition of the words meaning in english.

no, there are no effects that MUST trigger before ANYTHING occurs during a phase. there are effect that are supposed to trigger before anything else occurs during that phase, but they quite often share a timing with other effects and are determined by player order. just take the guri - old teroch interaction as an example. if the guri player has the initiative, guri first gets a focus token and then the old teroch player can strip guri of the token. if the old teroch player has the initiative, he can strip guri of any tokens she has, such as calculate or maybe an evade, guri then gets a focus token and gets to keep it. both guris pilot ability and old terochs pilot ability share the timing. none of them MUST trigger first, it's determined by player order as normal. if the same player has several effects that share the same timing, that player gets to choose the order.

your argument is that "at the start of" is not during, because the rules reference says that "at the start of"-effects trigger before anything occurs during that phase or step. while i do understand where you're coming from with this argument, it's completely and utterly irrelevant to the OPs question, since there is nothing on the petty officer thanisson card or the captain phasma card uses the words "at the start of".

also, i don't agree with it. it says "the effect triggers before anything occurs during that phase or step." indicating that the timing would happen before the phase even began, but it says "at the start of", not "before" (there are other effects that have this timing, mind you, han solo gunner in scum says "before you engage", s-foils say "before you activate"). of course, the timing is described to occur before anything occurs during that phase or step, but that part of the text is inconsistent with the first sentence in the paragraph: "this timing is used with a specific phase or step.". it's also inconsistent with how the term is used in the section about reverse maneuvers in the section about bearing on page 6.

while i would agree that your argument would be stronger if phasma triggered at the start of the engagement phase, i still wouldn't agree. i will maintain that effects that trigger "at the start of" trigger before the normal things occur during a phase, but that the effects themselves still happen during the phase in question. again, "during" is definitely not a defined game term, even if you want it to be.

i really think that the description of "at the end of" is good - and that's it's quite good that it uses undefined terms like "normal effects". i think it's quite good that the term "during" is not a specified game term as well. it doesn't need to be. normal effects are all the effects that normally happen during a round, as in game effects and the activation and engaging with all ships in initiative order, the phases of a round being stated and dealt with by both players etc. it's not specific effects printed on pilot cards, upgrade cards or condition cards. "during" is a term to used to describe effects that can trigger during the course of specific game phases or during the resolution of other effects, such as "during the systems phase". it has a lot in common with the game term "while".

it's good that they are not game terms, because it keeps us honest. we need to be honest as to not abuse the rules as written, because the rules as written have a lot of unclear and conflicting descriptions of different game effects. while in an ideal world, everything in the game would be crystal clear technical english, FFG simply didn't prioritize spending funds on that - and maybe that makes for a slightly confusing game experience at times, but it's still the game we know and love - and at least they are still publishing it. i am sorry to say it would be less profitable if they had technical writers assigned.

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On 12/18/2018 at 9:49 PM, nitrobenz said:

Actually, yes! Timing is covered on p18 of the Rules Reference (1.0.2) :)

'at the start of...' and 'at the end of...' are both covered by 'while' and I am asserting that 'during' and 'while' are synonymous in rules terms because 'during' appears in the definition of 'while'.

I was just informed of this thread today while trying to run this combo. Reading through it I have to agree that "at the end of" is include as during (obviously biased because I chose to run it)"

Looking at a specific section of the above quote "While: This term is often used in combination with multi-stepped game effects such as an attack, an action, or a maneuver. Although less specific than the other timings, this term is used to narrow down when the ability is resolved during the round. Additional verbiage is required to identify when exactly the effect is applied." 

If anything, the While section confirms that during encompasses more time than just "while." My rationale for this is that while specifies "when an ability resolves during the round." The job of "While" is to be more specific than "during." "While is a specific subset of "during" based on a strict interpretation of that section. Because is a subset of that phase, during must encompass the whole phase.

 

Edit: Sorry to bring up an older post, but I felt the need to add a different perspective.

Edited by SwampyCr

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