Skills in charchter creation

[AtoMaki 1,431]

43 minutes ago, Franwax said:

Aesthetics and Composition are only "semi-redundant"

Aesthetics is only semi-redundant if you already have Composition (or Design). The reasons you might want more than one of these three are very narrow - from the top of my head I can only name fluff and Art of Investigation shenanigans. Aesthetics is a nice Skill, Composition is good, and Design comes handy, but Aesthetics and Composition is overkill. 

[Avatar111 553]

5 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

Most importantly, I think, if the semi-redundant skills were further cut, then characters would feel very samey (an archer and a warrior-monk approach combat differently, and have different weaknesses during a scene, but can at least do a halfway decent attempt at resolving most combats their way: which requires different tactics, and even different teamwork).

a small 5 feet tall Kakita girl with tiny arms with 5 martial(melee) because she is a fancy dandy swordmaster can pick up a tetsubo and be a master with it, swinging it without problem.

i'm not saying it is a "concern", but, I don't see why they needed both the Aesthetic AND Design skill (basically almost same thing except for worn and not worn art objects...) when they considered that the Melee skill didn't need at least "melee light and melee heavy".

again, this is not as much as a complaint as a head scratcher.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Avatar111

[nameless ronin 706]

40 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

a small 5 feet tall Kakita girl with tiny arms with 5 martial(melee) because she is a fancy dandy swordmaster can pick up a tetsubo and be a master with it, swinging it without problem.

i'm not saying it is a "concern", but, I don't see why they needed both the Aesthetic AND Design skill (basically almost same thing except for worn and not worn art objects...) when they considered that the Melee skill didn't need at least "melee light and melee heavy".

again, this is not as much as a complaint as a head scratcher.

She can swing that same tetsubo without skill dice at all as well. If she's physically able to do so without any specific training, I don't see why she couldn't learn to swing it really well if she does devote her time to training with a tetsubo. The "small 5 feet tall with tiny arms" argument is irrelevant here.

Dividing things up into melee light and melee heavy is all well and good, but skillfully handling a tetsubo is nothing like handling a no-dachi, polearm use is very different from wielding weapons with much shorter reach and knife training isn't going to make you an expert swinging around chain weapons. I get that you want more granularity, but actually divvying things up sensibly is not that straightforward - it's either what we have now or what we had in previous editions. Unless you just want 2-3 categories of melee martial arts because it's a nice number for this edition, but then logic based on styles pretty much goes out the window anyway. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by nameless ronin

[Avatar111 553]

26 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

She can swing that same tetsubo without skill dice at all as well. If she's physically able to do so without any specific training, I don't see why she couldn't learn to swing it really well if she does devote her time to training with a tetsubo. The "small 5 feet tall with tiny arms" argument is irrelevant here.

Dividing things up into melee light and melee heavy is all well and good, but skillfully handling a tetsubo is nothing like handling a no-dachi, polearm use is very different from wielding weapons with much shorter reach and knife training isn't going to make you an expert swinging around chain weapons. I get that you want more granularity, but actually divvying things up sensibly is not that straightforward - it's either what we have now or what we had in previous editions. Unless you just want 2-3 categories of melee martial arts because it's a nice number for this edition, but then logic based on styles pretty much goes out the window anyway. 

relax, i don't want to change nothing (if it isn't in my houserule thread, it is all good.). I was merely pointing out that there is only 1 skill for all melee weapon, but then 2 skills (aesthetic and design) that do almost the same thing.

the light vs heavy melee was just a random thought taken almost directly from Star Wars (ranged light and ranged heavy).

and no you wouldn't have to go full granular. actually you can go as granular as you want, "sensibly" is not necessary now. it certainly isn't "sensible" as written, so any amount of granularity actually makes it more sensible.

but then again, there are much more pressing matters and fixes to be done than the skill list. i think. but then again, it really depends how you play the game. because that is how FFG design their RPG; the only rule is the GM.

 

[AtoMaki 1,431]

That Martial Arts (Melee) 5 should represent a considerable training with every melee weapon. To achieve that Skill Rank, the tiny Kakita girl did train with a tetsubo, if just briefly. 

[nameless ronin 706]

3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

it certainly isn't "sensible" as written, so any amount of granularity actually makes it more sensible.

To each their own, but for me splitting up melee into melee light and melee heavy makes things less sensible. No biggie though.

[Avatar111 553]

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

That Martial Arts (Melee) 5 should represent a considerable training with every melee weapon. To achieve that Skill Rank, the tiny Kakita girl did train with a tetsubo, if just briefly. 

yeah i'm all cool with one melee skill for all melee weapons. didn't change that in my houserules, it means "I AM FINE WITH IT".

I was just saying that subdividing Design and Aesthetic into 2 skills is weird considering how general they went with the melee skill (only 1 skill for all)

thats all guys.

nothing else.

this is not even an argument. its just a remark.

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

21 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

The "small 5 feet tall with tiny arms" argument is irrelevant here.

Well, actually it's not. If she's that small, then she probably has the Small Stature adversity, and the GM wouldn't be inappropriate in applying the disadvantage to strike rolls with a melee weapon that's bigger and heavier than she is....

21 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Dividing things up into melee light and melee heavy is all well and good, but skillfully handling a tetsubo is nothing like handling a no-dachi, polearm use is very different from wielding weapons with much shorter reach and knife training isn't going to make you an expert swinging around chain weapons. I get that you want more granularity, but actually divvying things up sensibly is not that straightforward - it's either what we have now or what we had in previous editions. Unless you just want 2-3 categories of melee martial arts because it's a nice number for this edition, but then logic based on styles pretty much goes out the window anyway. 

The way I see it, in any RPG I've GM-ed or played, the number of times a PC is forced to fight with anything other than their 'favoured' melee weapon(s) is very limited without some significant plot contrivances on the GM's part.

L5R is relatively good on this - in that yon massive tetsubo-swinging Hida can realistically be asked to fight in an iaijutsu duel with swords on odd occasions - but that's all that springs to mind.

[Avatar111 553]

11 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

L5R is relatively good on this - in that yon massive tetsubo-swinging Hida can realistically be asked to fight in an iaijutsu duel with swords on odd occasions - but that's all that springs to mind.

Depends, if you apply the range band rules strictly, then someone with a range 2 polearm would probably drop the polearm and take out a short reach weapon once an opponent gets at range 0 of him. Otherwise the polearm user is forced into water stance to even attack. 

Or, a ninja with a snaring weapon using coiling serpent and starts to immobilize you at range 0 from him...

Or vice versa you could be the katana wielding dude stuck at range 2 by iron forest kata.

I feel in L5R, compared to many other systems, you will actually switch weapons more often and having a bow/polearm/daisho on yourself is probably optimal.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Avatar111

[AtoMaki 1,431]

3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

I feel in L5R, compared to many other systems, you will actually switch weapons more often and having a bow/polearm/daisho on yourself is probably optimal.

This should be true, but in my experience, the mechanics for weapon switching and engagement distancing do not really support having multiple weapons. 

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Depends, if you apply the range band rules strictly, then someone with a range 2 polearm would probably drop the polearm and take out a short reach weapon once an opponent gets at range 0 of him. Otherwise the polearm user is forced into water stance to even attack. 

But unless it's concealable (or they have an iaijutsu technique), preparing the weapon is their action - meaning water stance is needed - and if in water stance you could move to range 1, manoeuvre to range 2, and thump them with the business end of the polearm.

Or you could just use Martial Arts (Unarmed) and hoof them in the dishonourable bits. That works too.

By comparison, I agree with the comment that techniques and school abilities can encourage you to change weapons (or actively take them off you, like Crimson Leaves style).

 

I'm not saying there aren't niche cases where you would need a different weapon, but many or most of those are specific 'instants' in a combat, and will often come with a TN penalty or force you into a specific ring, or whatever, which whilst it's not requiring a different skill per se, will impact the difficulty of the check

[nameless ronin 706]

33 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Well, actually it's not. If she's that small, then she probably has the Small Stature adversity, and the GM wouldn't be inappropriate in applying the disadvantage to strike rolls with a melee weapon that's bigger and heavier than she is....

The way I see it, in any RPG I've GM-ed or played, the number of times a PC is forced to fight with anything other than their 'favoured' melee weapon(s) is very limited without some significant plot contrivances on the GM's part.

L5R is relatively good on this - in that yon massive tetsubo-swinging Hida can realistically be asked to fight in an iaijutsu duel with swords on odd occasions - but that's all that springs to mind.

Small Stature is an advantage, not an adversity. The GM might invert it, but that wouldn't exactly change the basic mechanics involved. She could still wield the tetsubo using ring dice only if untrained, and she could still train in order to be better at it. That a massive Hida is naturally better suited to wielding such a weapon doesn't change that pretty much anyone can wield a tetsubo and train with it if they want to, including tiny Kakita bushi. If the argument is that katana training shouldn't impart equal skill with a tetsubo I can get on board with that, but stature doesn't have any bearing on this issue.

L5R has fairly rigorous circumstantial restrictions regarding which weapons you can have with you, from none over wakizashi only to daisho only to anything goes. It's not really a major incentive to switch weapons regularly, but it has come up every now and then for all my groups.

Edited December 19, 2018 by nameless ronin

[Avatar111 553]

53 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

This should be true, but in my experience, the mechanics for weapon switching and engagement distancing do not really support having multiple weapons. 

I guess you re right. Either way you need water stance (move from 0 to 2) or draw a weapon.

But probably having a concleable knife or an Iai technique as Magnus mentioned makes changing weapon much better.

And, there is also the case of being immobilized, snared, coiling serpent bs etc.

You will still probably switch weapon more than d&d! Having one melee skill to rule them all makes it easier, but also much blander..

Basically between a knife fighter and a tetsubo fighter, the stats are the same, the "weapon" gives you the look; "hey hes wielding a massive tetsubo, it must be a big strong character!" Is an image that you mentally create because of standards but that really doesn't hold true here.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Avatar111

[Daeglan 5,950]

There are rules for sub skills if you desire.

I would probably only use them for siills your character is super specialized in. Like melee for melee weapons and Tetsubo for tetsubos

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

On 12/18/2018 at 4:03 AM, Franwax said:

Aesthetics and Composition are only "semi-redundant" in certain campaign styles - I am ready to believe that - but that is certainly not a universal conclusion. You won't be able to perform the same tasks with each Artisan skill - not only for their initial purpose (to create art) but also for the information you can learn from the knowledge of those disciplines.

Oh, and special props to Design, which also helps you spot concealed weapons

Given how they're stated in the rules, they have very little overlap. Don't rely upon the names alone - they are, in typical Japanese tradition, half-truths to trigger memory, not the definition itself.

• If it's useful, rather than just  pretty, it cannot be done by Aesthetics alone. Aesthetics can probably be used to refine most of the others, and all the scholars.
• If it's using words as artistic endeavors, it's Composition
• if it's communicating with clothing or jewelry or hairstyles, or providing a benefit with same, it's Design. (which really should have been named "Fashion", but thats a quibble.)
• If it protects you from physical harm (and has Phys Res >1) it's clearly Smithing. If it breaks others, it's smithing. One could probably make a cotton kimono or juban with design. It's be comfy, but it wouldn't be pretty. You could refine with smithing the fancy one you made using design, to push it up to P2...

 

[AtoMaki 1,431]

37 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

• If it protects you from physical harm (and has Phys Res >1) it's clearly Smithing.

I love the Smithing Skill. You take out your anvil, get your hammer, some wood and iron, start smithing, and *bang* you create a bunch of arrows ! Or, in this case, you have a tear on your travelling clothes so better start warming up the furnace  for it! After hours of of melting, tempering, and folding the base material, you create... a bo staff!