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Crit Happens

The race to the bottom, and how it should be addressed

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OK, I talked to Kylo.  He's agreed to allow Null with Squad Leader into the squad as long as he agrees to take a single shot and then just ram himself into people while Kylo runs away after the initial engagement.  He's agreed to this conditionally, however, only if "Squad Leader" is re-named "Ship that gives me an extra action and then dies."

Kylo (not quite) Solo

TIE/vn Silencer - •Kylo Ren - 126
    •Kylo Ren - Tormented Apprentice (82)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        Proton Rockets (7)
        Afterburners (8)
        Supernatural Reflexes (12)
        Primed Thrusters (8)

TIE/fo Fighter - •“Null” - 35
    •“Null” - Epsilon Ace (31)
        •Squad Leader (4)

Total: 161/200

EDIT: It horrifies me that Null was actually designed to serve this exact purpose in Kylo points fortress lists...

Edited by dadocollin

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1 hour ago, kris40k said:

This isn't a bad idea. In WarmaHordes, when you are playing a point limit like a typical 75 point game you cannot bring less than 70 points.

Thats where I got the idea from 😃

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A bid is a valid choice in squad-building. The points are "used" to gain initiative. Initiative has value just as an upgrade does.

If the only way to score the points spent on a bid is to table the list then those points have a different value than points spent on upgrades. Points spent on upgrades can be scored in whole or in part without destroying the entire list. 

I think that notion reinforces the idea of, "If the bid is deep, the ships are too cheap." 

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7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

This is usually a really, really bad idea.  If you buy the TIE fighter, you cost yourself MoV over the course of the day, by giving your opponent 23 points of a ship they can trivially kill.

 

I really support some method of penalising bidding.  As it stands one of the best upgrades you can buy on an I5 or I6 double repositioning ace is... 10+ points of nothing.

That's super dumb.

Personally my preferred course would simply be to make initiative a coin toss, as in Keyforge.  Whoever wins the toss moves and shoots first.  Instantly removing all incentive to bid and giving those point fortress lists a 50 50 chance of not being able to arc dodge.

 

3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


This completely misunderstands how competitive X-Wing works.  The whole idea in not taking that TIE Fighter is that the TIE would only feed the opponent 24 free points without contributing enough to the effort while also encroaching on your all-important bid to control moving last with your aces.  Besides, by leaving that 25 points off the table you ADD 25 points to the value of whatever ace is the last surviving ship on the board, 'lockboxing' those points from the opponent unless they can kill your last ace (which the ace list is good at denying).  And now, even if you're Whisper is half-dead and running away, Whisper's value at the end of the game is 1/2 * (Whisper's Cost) + 25, meaning Whisper will beat more stuff in the end game when time is called, while also preserving your MoV.

So basically, it is all MOV's fault, and 2nd edition has fixed none of the problems that competitive 1st edition had.

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6 hours ago, mcintma said:

I personally lean to removing the simultaneous fire rule. You want to give me FP? I just might PS-kill your I5 with my I5 - now you have to actually think about it. It would need to be tested, but I think it would help alot.

It might fix the problem for high initiative arc dodgers fighting each other *might*

However this would have the effect of moving the bid from just high I arc dodgers to every single list, not just arc dodgers will care about the Initiative bid everyone ship will! running a PS1 swarm? better put a bid in that in case you face another PS1 swarm.

So your fix just makes the problem much much bigger effecting every single ship in the game.

The only way i can think to deal with it is to create an entire new phase called the action phase.
Activation Phase : move ships in ascending order
Action phase: Preform actions in ascending order

If all ships have moved before anyone can do any re-positioning it reduces the advantage of moving second. It also helps low ps target lock acquisition. 

Do i like my own idea of an action phase? nope it adds to much housekeeping (tracking movement states... did that ship go over that rock?) and takes away from some of the blind strategy that is x-wing (being able to predict your opponents moves and react to them with your own actions before they even moved is a skill and very rewarding when you succeed).

Basically I like the game how it is.... I rarely include a bid and just roll with it, if you are really concerned a single block can ruin your opponents entire plan.

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5 hours ago, BCooper85 said:

I thought the point of this game was to have fun, my apologies.

Unfortunately, “fun” and “optimal play” so rarely meet, at least with emergent strategies like this. Just look at how many un-fun strategies the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup devs have had to remove from their game because certain types of people are unable to bring themselves to play anything less than the “optimal” way.

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24 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

 

So basically, it is all MOV's fault, and 2nd edition has fixed none of the problems that competitive 1st edition had.


I mean, if you read the original post by @Crit Happens that started this thread, his exact proposal was one solution that would address the issue of lock-boxing those 25pts behind whatever final remaining ship you have on the board.

Which is one issue of big bids.  The other issue of big bids is that for any lists using aces or alpha strikes and relying on moving last, that control of initiative is so utterly powerful that it's usually worth more than an additional filler ship, hence leaving the TIE behind to ensure your aces can move last (because in the battles of High PS vs High PS, he who moves last typically wins).

The suggestion of making unspent points count as destroyed points for your opponent addresses the first problem but doesn't resolve the second problem of moving last being the most surefire way to win games of X-Wing (which is no different from 1.0).

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22 hours ago, Crit Happens said:

Towards the end of wave one, we witnessed squads at I5 in particular bringing bids of 16 points or more.

The plural of anecdote is not data. The median bid for I5 lists making top tables at major tourneys is 2pts for scum and 3pts for Imperial. Source
Hardly cause for concern.

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I am curious to see how effective a kylo list built to go for time will be.  I felt rebel regen it what enabled the strategy in the first place.  I haven't flown against miranda or low risk since 1.0 ended. 

Without 1.0 autothrusters kylo will have a very small margin of error.

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19 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I mean, if you read the original post by @Crit Happens that started this thread, his exact proposal was one solution that would address the issue of lock-boxing those 25pts behind whatever final remaining ship you have on the board.
 

Big bids like that are no different than the absurd bids in the early phantom days of 1.0, when people would slap down Whisper and Echo and a 14 point bid (16?). The problem wasn't that there was a 14 point bid, its that the ships point costs and mechanics allowed for the giant bid. Given the potential to change and remove ship costs and upgrades, giant bids can easily be removed if they prove too feasible by increasing the base points cost of the ships that are keeping the bids protected late game.

So in the realm of mirrors (or near mirrors) which list is likely to win? Soontir Whisper (no vader) and Redline with a 14 point bid, or the exact same list, but this time Whisper has Vader crew. My money is on the list without vader, but with the bid.

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3 hours ago, prauxim said:

The plural of anecdote is not data. The median bid for I5 lists making top tables at major tourneys is 2pts for scum and 3pts for Imperial. Source
Hardly cause for concern.

And quoting a median value, when we are obviously discussing the unintended consequences of deep point bids has zero relevance to this conversation. I'm not discussing what the average player does. I thought that was clear.

Also, I get that people love to reuse quotes from the Krayts, because it makes them feel like part of the club. But I've seen the data too. I'm not really sure what you're getting at. 

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Personally, I'd like to see more talents and such that promote synergies with IN1-3 pilots. Even up to IN4, they usually have to be more supportive than centerpieces. They're already paying a steep cost in terms of shooting last.

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25 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

And quoting a median value, when we are obviously discussing the unintended consequences of deep point bids has zero relevance to this conversation. I'm not discussing what the average player does. I thought that was clear.

Also, I get that people love to reuse quotes from the Krayts, because it makes them feel like part of the club. But I've seen the data too. I'm not really sure what you're getting at. 

Lol, you think the Krayts (whom I've never even listened to) came up with that quote about antecdotes?

How can the frequency of a problem not be relevant to the discussion of a problem? How often do you encounter these 15 bids you're complaining about?

Edited by prauxim
removed extra whitespace, typos

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30 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Lol, you think the Krayts (whom I've never even listened to) came up with that quote about antecdotes?

How can the frequency of a problem not be relevant to the discussion of a problem? How often do you encounter these 15 bids you're complaining about?

We're about to see lots of them. And deeper than 15 points. 

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6 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

We're about to see lots of them. And deeper than 15 points. 

Are you thinking that it's two ship lists with Kylo mostly? (since you believe it's about to occur frequently) or are thier other lists as well. I don't think the Resistance can have deep bids just because of the ships that are Hyperspace legal. 

Is this just a Kylo and ..... (  insert 1 ship ) issue

I believe the issue as mentioned previously isn't that much of an issue because of the skill it takes to fly a Kylo list like that.

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13 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

So what you’re saying is “git gud!”?

Nope. Just offering some techniques to getting there, which I am not yet. I am sure that being good at least incorporates those techniques amongst others.  Being aware of turning a disadvantage into an advantage with mindful gameplay  instead of being a scrub and flailing one's arms in the air about why you somehow can't have both all your fancy toys and move after someone who has sacrificed those toys is a start. Granted, I am a scrub, but I seek to change that, and not tourney convention. And given the choice of a toolbox OR *WORD HERE IS "OR", SILLY PEOPLE! IT'S A DECISION TO MAKE!* moving last, i choose the former. Not necessarily the best one for all playstyles, but dang it's fun to never waste a point against swarms or I4.

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2 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

Are you thinking that it's two ship lists with Kylo mostly? (since you believe it's about to occur frequently) or are thier other lists as well. I don't think the Resistance can have deep bids just because of the ships that are Hyperspace legal. 

Is this just a Kylo and ..... (  insert 1 ship ) issue

I believe the issue as mentioned previously isn't that much of an issue because of the skill it takes to fly a Kylo list like that.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED! *proceeds to be a numbskull and fly into a killbox, as I suck at aceplay*

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I may be new-ish to the game, but the problem with initiative pilots is that they both get more perfect information, and the ability to sometimes escape consequences by virtue of killing things before they shoot. 

The first-player war is around at the moment because named, high-initiative pilots are defining the meta, and are very, very powerful. 

The fact that it exists is a sign that FFG should look hard at basically every pilot with an I of 5+ and figure out how many points they need to go up by. 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So what you're telling me... is that you actively want to punish players who don't put their lists directly in that 190 range? Who are good enough that they don't even need to use all their points? Who are absolutely certain they've brought all they actually need?

Ew.

No.

I'm not sure you understand how bids work in initiative mirrors, especially with ships like Kylo, Redline, etc. 

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3 hours ago, Alyx'sDog said:

I'm not sure you understand how bids work in initiative mirrors, especially with ships like Kylo, Redline, etc. 

I understand entirely how initiative bids work and how devastating they can be when you lose it. But a player who purposefully brings less shouldn't be punished.

That takes guts.

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19 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

So what you’re saying is “git gud!”?

That was the exact same tip you always got in 1.0 when complaining for example about U-Boats or Phantoms...

So let’s say it’s an answer that has tradition!

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7 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

Are you thinking that it's two ship lists with Kylo mostly? (since you believe it's about to occur frequently) or are thier other lists as well. I don't think the Resistance can have deep bids just because of the ships that are Hyperspace legal. 

Is this just a Kylo and ..... (  insert 1 ship ) issue

I believe the issue as mentioned previously isn't that much of an issue because of the skill it takes to fly a Kylo list like that.

Can we do it with Poe? He can be ridiculously equipped, although not to the level that Kylo can.

Still he has access to Black one to get away once, he can also get an R2 unit, or BB-8. You could also add Lone Wolf and Primed Thrusters or Ferrosphere paint...

He starts at I6 too.

Edited by ForceM

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