Seppun Astrologer school oddness

[Isawa Miyu 46]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Seppun Astrologer school starts with an invocation that they can't reliably use without taking an Earth Ring boost for their supplementary ring choice? They also get an air ring boost, despite having no air invocation. At first I just found it odd, but the more I thought about it with the game's systems (channeling not providing extra kept dice for example), and the seeming intention of the supplementary ring (to represent your character's personality to their approach to their school), the more strange I found it. I am now convinced that it is a mistake. Am I expected to believe that the school teaches a technique its students can't reliably perform? Or am I supposed to consider that students who choose not to be absolutely studious (Earth ring as extra ring), are essentially 'doing their school wrong' to such a degree that they can't use its one mandatory invocation?

If it's not a content mistake, I can only consider it to be a particularly strange choice of school design.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

You should probably clarify specifically what you mean for people who don't have the book yet. I had to double check with some people who did to know you mean that specifically, Seppun Astrologers get ◆Bind The Shadow, normally a Rank 2 Earth Invocation, which requires a TN 3 Theology check. Which, while maybe starting is a bit unusual, is not unheard of, as the Kaito also can get this technique at Rank 1, and are an Air/Water school. While not necessarily inherently good at it, I'm pretty sure the point is utility - the Seppun Shugenja need to be able to do their job to ward off evil spirits, and that's hard to do without the spell. It might, however, be a copying error, as the Palace Guard school gets Earth/Void, when that probably makes more sense for Astrologer. I'd report it to FFG directly since posting on the forums about that is useless to them. 

For now, remember the Astrologer has the ability to go "just as planned" ability to bank dice in a lower TN check for later. 

[Agasha Kanetake 49]

You can chose earth as you Seppun family ring increase, which will give you 2 earth. As you said, you can get to 3 in the earth ring if you were the right type of student (Q4). But say you keep it at 2 for the sake of argument.

You get 2 theology ranks (one with Seppun family and one with school), which makes it possible for you to begin your career with 3 ranks in Theology (questions 13 allows you to do that in exchange for an additional disadvantage; question 18 might as well, if your GM allows you to chose something thematically sound, instead of randomly selecting).

As a shugenja, you have options at every step of a roll to improve your odds of success for a TN3 Theology check with a ring of 2 and skill of 2 or 3:

• Like everyone, spend a Void Point to add a die to the pool and keep an additional die. This will make it much more reliable, allowing you to keep enough successes even before rolling explosives.
• As shugenja, make a worthy offering to the kami, which will allow you to reroll up to 3 "blanks".
• As shugenja, if your modified roll contains a single explosive success with no ordinary success, chose to channel this explosive success and retry next round.
• Like everyone, keep explosive successes to roll additional dice.
• As a Seppun Astrologer, consider using your school ability, if you have the correct die type of the correct ring available in the reserve.

TN3 Theology checks with rings of 2 and skill of 2 or 3 are not impossible for a starting shugenja (especially for those invocations that don't care about additional successes). Just don't expect 100% success rate on first try or to reliably trigger the opportunities of those invocations until later in your career.

[Isawa Miyu 46]

1 hour ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

You can chose earth as you Seppun family ring increase, which will give you 2 earth. As you said, you can get to 3 in the earth ring if you were the right type of student (Q4). But say you keep it at 2 for the sake of argument.

You get 2 theology ranks (one with Seppun family and one with school), which makes it possible for you to begin your career with 3 ranks in Theology (questions 13 allows you to do that in exchange for an additional disadvantage; question 18 might as well, if your GM allows you to chose something thematically sound, instead of randomly selecting).

As a shugenja, you have options at every step of a roll to improve your odds of success for a TN3 Theology check with a ring of 2 and skill of 2 or 3:

• Like everyone, spend a Void Point to add a die to the pool and keep an additional die. This will make it much more reliable, allowing you to keep enough successes even before rolling explosives.
• As shugenja, make a worthy offering to the kami, which will allow you to reroll up to 3 "blanks".
• As shugenja, if your modified roll contains a single explosive success with no ordinary success, chose to channel this explosive success and retry next round.
• Like everyone, keep explosive successes to roll additional dice.
• As a Seppun Astrologer, consider using your school ability, if you have the correct die type of the correct ring available in the reserve.

TN3 Theology checks with rings of 2 and skill of 2 or 3 are not impossible for a starting shugenja (especially for those invocations that don't care about additional successes). Just don't expect 100% success rate on first try or to reliably trigger the opportunities of those invocations until later in your career.

Oh, I don't think it's completely out of the blue, or useless. Particularly with channeling for explosions, it's very much a useable technique, I just find it strange from a lore perspective that a school would teach something that some percentage that is a majority of their students would not be able to use without the 'luck' of explosions or luck/momentum/PC power that is represented by spending a Void point.

[nameless ronin 706]

The Agasha are in a somewhat similar position with Heart of the Water Dragon, which they get privileged access to at rank 1: it's a rank 2 Water invocation requiring a TN 3 Theology (Water) check, while a starting Agasha Mystic will have Water 2 and maybe Theology 2 if they put some effort into it (normally just 1). Of course, you can choose to spend XP on your Water ring and or on Theology first, but still. I don't think reliability is necessarily a big factor here, at least not as big as being thematically appropriate.

[Franwax 386]

Haven’t seen the schools yet, but if palace guards get +Earth and Void, while astrologers get +Air and Water, it does seem a bit mixed up 😛

The only schools in the Core Rulebook that get Void as part of their Ring enhancements are the Togashi monks and the Kitsu. And for Family based enhancements, Void only appears for families whose showcased school is Shugenja or Monk... Now the Seppun happen to fill the two functions of Shugenja and Bushi, but that would be all the more reason to put some Void in the Astrologer’s profile. Just following clues here

[UnitOmega 2,818]

20 minutes ago, Franwax said:

Just following clues here

Also they're all about divinations and signs and stuff, and Fortune-Telling is a Passion tied to Void, which is what made me a bit suspicious. 

27 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

The Agasha

Well, Agasha have the special ability to switch around rings a few times per session, which is a bit like the Kaito with Bind the Shadow - they have a trick to make it easier. Heart of the Water Dragon itself is thematically Agasha, it has an Alchemy invocation name, and makes sense as a invocation for a family known for it's chemists and healers. At least, somewhere in their curriculum. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by UnitOmega

[Isawa Miyu 46]

10 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

The Agasha are in a somewhat similar position with Heart of the Water Dragon, which they get privileged access to at rank 1: it's a rank 2 Water invocation requiring a TN 3 Theology (Water) check, while a starting Agasha Mystic will have Water 2 and maybe Theology 2 if they put some effort into it (normally just 1). Of course, you can choose to spend XP on your Water ring and or on Theology first, but still. I don't think reliability is necessarily a big factor here, at least not as big as being thematically appropriate.

I mean, I don't completely disagree, but there is a difference between a technique you start with, and one you can learn early. Starting with it implies a degree of mastery already. Learning something early, if anything, implies teaching an advanced technique some of your members will be able to master early, and others may not, and it's okay with you (the school) either way. Actually, the comment on the Kaito is the same, they CAN learn Bind the Shadow early, but the Seppun start with it. Remember that schools start with a single rank 2 technique, and as a result, with all the options, I'd expect the choice to be one rather universally useable. The only choice I can think of that is close to as baffling is the Matsu and Rolling Avalanche style, except they at least have an option, and aren't ring-restricted (all they have to do is find or pick a weapon with the right restraints, not raise a ring for 9 experience).

 

3 minutes ago, Franwax said:

Haven’t seen the schools yet, but if palace guards get +Earth and Void, while astrologers get +Air and Water, it does seem a bit mixed up 😛

The only schools in the Core Rulebook that get Void as part of their Ring enhancements are the Togashi monks and the Kitsu. And for Family based enhancements, Void only appears for families whose showcased school is Shugenja or Monk... Now the Seppun happen to fill the two functions of Shugenja and Bushi, but that would be all the more reason to put some Void in the Astrologer’s profile. Just following clues here

I'm on the fence here. On the one hand, the Seppun guard school ability makes them great at initiative, so Air makes sense. Water is generally good for military characters for its kata, but not necessarily for its stance, and definitely not for its derived statistics. Earth is a good military stat. Void is good(ish) for duels. The lore in the book says the Seppun rarely use their speed or talents for duels. So Void to me definitely points to shuggie, but Earth is still good for the guard, and indeed, the Seppun family pick either Earth or Void, so there's a certain poetry to making the guard school's stats Earth, Void. Earth is basically necessary imo for the Astrologer though, given their invocations. They make the most sense to me as Earth/Water though, because then you pick either Earth or Void for family, you pick Earth or Water or Air for extra, unless you're going for a balanced build. It just opens up a ton of options. Earth/Void opens up your free choice, but basically makes Earth mandatory for your family pick. That's still way better, I just find it odd.

 

3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Also they're all about divinations and signs and stuff, which is a Passion tied to Void, which is what made me a bit suspicious.

I just read that passion again today, and I still didn't make that leap. Good catch.

[nameless ronin 706]

10 minutes ago, Isawa Miyu said:

I mean, I don't completely disagree, but there is a difference between a technique you start with, and one you can learn early. Starting with it implies a degree of mastery already. Learning something early, if anything, implies teaching an advanced technique some of your members will be able to master early, and others may not, and it's okay with you (the school) either way. Actually, the comment on the Kaito is the same, they CAN learn Bind the Shadow early, but the Seppun start with it. Remember that schools start with a single rank 2 technique, and as a result, with all the options, I'd expect the choice to be one rather universally useable. The only choice I can think of that is close to as baffling is the Matsu and Rolling Avalanche style, except they at least have an option, and aren't ring-restricted (all they have to do is find or pick a weapon with the right restraints, not raise a ring for 9 experience).

Earth 2 + Theology 2 with the use of an offering gives fairly reasonable odds of succeeding a TN 3 check if opportunities don't matter. For me, the fact that all Astronomers learn this technique just says it's considered essential for performing their duties. The way curriculums work makes it impossible to make something mandatory learning at higher ranks.

[Agasha Kanetake 49]

Invocation themes, school/family/clan themes, lore, balance. All these things are not always easy to reconcile. Design decisions are made for a multitude of reasons. Things may not always make sense (or make it easy for players) at first glance.

Agashas have it easier to get a fire ring of 3 with their clan and family ring bonuses, but fire is obviously their 3rd favorite invocation type; while earth and water rings require correct "student type" to be at 3, even though they are both 1st and 2nd favorite invocation types. This means that Agashas are likely to need heavy early XP investment in rings to be able to reliably perform invocations from their favorite types, come ranks 2 and 3. But I'm ok with that. It makes it fun to know that not all Agashas or shugenja from other schools will build and progress their characters the same way. And there will be a multitude of opinions depending on each person's taste and play styles. In many cases, the hard choices you will make will be that much more meaningful, flavorful and inspirational for the background, personality and development of your character.

Maybe Bind the Shadow is a kind of "final exam" for Seppun Astrologers. Maybe most students fail multiple times before they perform this invocation successfully and students typically get declared ready for gempuku years later than in other schools. Maybe this is how the masters ensure that the new supernatural guards of the Emperor show enough "thoroughness, patience and calm" to accomplish their task, before they are entrusted with the life of the most important charges in Rokugan. But of course, refined, adaptable, creative or insightful students all eventually succeed as well...

That said, I'm definitely not saying it's impossible that it's an error, you'll have to ask FFG directly for a final verdict. You can find the form in the link at the top of the website: More > Customer service > ¨Rules questions

[Isawa Miyu 46]

5 hours ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

Invocation themes, school/family/clan themes, lore, balance. All these things are not always easy to reconcile. Design decisions are made for a multitude of reasons. Things may not always make sense (or make it easy for players) at first glance.

Agashas have it easier to get a fire ring of 3 with their clan and family ring bonuses, but fire is obviously their 3rd favorite invocation type; while earth and water rings require correct "student type" to be at 3, even though they are both 1st and 2nd favorite invocation types. This means that Agashas are likely to need heavy early XP investment in rings to be able to reliably perform invocations from their favorite types, come ranks 2 and 3. But I'm ok with that. It makes it fun to know that not all Agashas or shugenja from other schools will build and progress their characters the same way. And there will be a multitude of opinions depending on each person's taste and play styles. In many cases, the hard choices you will make will be that much more meaningful, flavorful and inspirational for the background, personality and development of your character.

Maybe Bind the Shadow is a kind of "final exam" for Seppun Astrologers. Maybe most students fail multiple times before they perform this invocation successfully and students typically get declared ready for gempuku years later than in other schools. Maybe this is how the masters ensure that the new supernatural guards of the Emperor show enough "thoroughness, patience and calm" to accomplish their task, before they are entrusted with the life of the most important charges in Rokugan. But of course, refined, adaptable, creative or insightful students all eventually succeed as well...

That said, I'm definitely not saying it's impossible that it's an error, you'll have to ask FFG directly for a final verdict. You can find the form in the link at the top of the website: More > Customer service > ¨Rules questions

I do get that it's not easy to reconcile, necessarily. As written for example, Air is rank 3 automatically, and yet they start with no Air invocations, and don't buy any in-curriculum until rank 2. Weird, but if the other element in the school was Earth, I'd kind of see it more as an oddity, and less as a shock. It's also odd that the school doesn't have any fire incantation ranges in the curriculum, just specific ones like Soul Blade, but it encourages some people to build fire, and maybe take a number of extracurricular invocations, while others will just focus on Earth, Air, or Water (or some combination of such).

My only problem viewing is a fail-able final exam, is that gempukku is normally presented as a thing you can legitimately fail forever, but mostly as a rare event, because you're supposed to be properly prepared for it. Still, I can get behind that enough to accept it as the answer in the mean time. It's believable. I have used FFG's rules question thing, but I haven't heard back yet.

[Agasha Kanetake 49]

7 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

My only problem viewing is a fail-able final exam, is that gempukku is normally presented as a thing you can legitimately fail forever, but mostly as a rare event, because you're supposed to be properly prepared for it.

Then it could be the final requirement before your sensei pronounces you ready. It might not be part of the gempuku itself, because as you said, failure rates will be too high, and widespread humiliation is not the goal!

Sort of like learning a musical instrument. Your teacher will work on progressively harder things with you and will push your limits. But for the recital, you're going to chose a piece that will both be hard enough to demonstrate your talent/progress but remain something you're relatively comfortable with to avoid a complete disaster.

7 hours ago, Isawa Miyu said:

I have used FFG's rules question thing, but I haven't heard back yet.

It took 3-4 work days when I used it a couple weeks ago, though holiday season might interfere at this point. Let us know when you hear back!

[TheHobgoblyn 352]

I would say it is fairly shoddy game design. But, quite a lot about this edition speaks to pretty shoddy game design-- a bit like these books were rushed out and not much playtesting at all was done.

I can imagine an issue like this arose because whomever was put in charge of designing the school took a look at the effects all techniques they could give had and then chose the ones with the effects they felt matched their idea of what the school should do.... and they didn't bother to make sure that the elements of the techniques matched the elements they had assigned the school.

What they would have been better off doing was figure out what elements they were focusing on as a school and then choose techniques for the school only from those elements.

 

I really feel like they should have given the entire RPG another year or so of development to get thing straight before releasing it. But I guess they wanted to get the roleplay side of things going before those in the community lost interest and abandoned the IP.

 

Anyway, remember that when it comes to RPG systems-- rule 0.

If it really makes no sense for the Seppun Astrologer to have an Earth technique and you are the GM or your GM agrees, just switch it out for a rank 2 technique that actually matches the elements the school focuses on.

[Franwax 386]

14 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

If it really makes no sense for the Seppun Astrologer to have an Earth technique and you are the GM or your GM agrees, just switch it out for a rank 2 technique that actually matches the elements the school focuses on.

Actually that would be the other way around... Bind the Shadow does make sense, so one could switch a ring increase to Earth instead. 

[nameless ronin 706]

10 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

What they would have been better off doing was figure out what elements they were focusing on as a school and then choose techniques for the school only from those elements.

Bind the Shadows is a very appropriate invocation though, and there are no good alternatives using other elements. If anything were to be changed, I'd say changing the rings the school gives an extra rank in would probably be better. As @UnitOmega pointed out, the Palace Guard's +1 Void & Earth would look pretty good for the Astrologer.

[TheHobgoblyn 352]

Wait... Palace Guards don't have water?

No wonder they can't see someone hiding 2 feet in front of their faces.

I would imagine that the Imperial Families "Clan" would probably grant an Earth bonus anyway though. After all, knowledgeable, rational, traditional, grounded, stodgy and calm is generally what they are supposed to convey more than any other elemental description.

 

What about the other techniques as they level though? It wouldn't do much good to change their rings for their first technique if all the others they are offered aren't that element.

[Nheko 205]

7 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Wait... Palace Guards don't have water?

No wonder they can't see someone hiding 2 feet in front of their faces.

I would imagine that the Imperial Families "Clan" would probably grant an Earth bonus anyway though. After all, knowledgeable, rational, traditional, grounded, stodgy and calm is generally what they are supposed to convey more than any other elemental description.

 

What about the other techniques as they level though? It wouldn't do much good to change their rings for their first technique if all the others they are offered aren't that element.

Maybe they switched the school bonuses by accident, both being Seppun...

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Yeah, obviously I don't know how FFG runs internally, but they fairly regularly have these small copy/paste errors in table entries and the like, I wonder if maybe proofreading isn't done by people who aren't familiar with the game itself, so they mostly catch spelling and grammatical errors. If you accidentally swap the two Seppun school bonuses, only someone more familiar with the rules would note that Air/Water sounds better for "Guards" so they have a minimum Vigilance 2 (and can easily make 3), while the shugenja school gets rings associated with a couple of their starting spells and the activity they are known for (Divination). 

[Avatar111 553]

Lot of little mechanical ambiguities are a bit overlooked. same as in star wars, it isn't one of their strong point.

But in that case, seppun guard seems like a duelist to me, or at least, a very good duelist, and he starts with an Iai cut, the one he wants, thats even better than Kakita. And earth and void are 2 very very good duelist rings (much better than water and air which are probably the 2 worst rings for duels). Vigilance is not that useful for a bushi, and almost useless for a duelist. and his school ability give him better initiative without having Air.

honestly. if i play a seppun guard i'd MUCH rather have earth/void than air/water.

it could still be a mistake, i'm just saying that these rings are very good for the guard as is.

 

edit: and the astrologer should be talkative and vigilant. they are astrologers after all. water and air is good for them.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Avatar111

[TheHobgoblyn 352]

But a "guard" isn't really meant to be a particularly good duelist. Since when in any of the fictions have the Seppun been noting for being good at dueling? They usually don't even enter contests in which dueling is involved and, when they do, it is almost never that they win them.

They are meant to be guards primarily, which means spotting danger before anyone else does, and their secondary job is as investigators/magistrates.

So even if these are good bonuses if one wants to be a duelist, that isn't even meant to be the theme of the school at all.

I definitely would have given all Imperials +Earth for their clan bonus, Seppun would probably get +Water or +Void as their family bonus for their perception both natural and supernatural.

Which bonuses the schools I would have to decide based on the most appropriate techniques, but fire or air may or may not enter into it.

 

Once I get my hands on the book, I'll homebrew sort it all out. I am just waiting for the book to pop up on Amazon so I can order it.

[Avatar111 553]

7 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

But a "guard" isn't really meant to be a particularly good duelist. Since when in any of the fictions have the Seppun been noting for being good at dueling? They usually don't even enter contests in which dueling is involved and, when they do, it is almost never that they win them.

They are meant to be guards primarily, which means spotting danger before anyone else does, and their secondary job is as investigators/magistrates.

So even if these are good bonuses if one wants to be a duelist, that isn't even meant to be the theme of the school at all.

I definitely would have given all Imperials +Earth for their clan bonus, Seppun would probably get +Water or +Void as their family bonus for their perception both natural and supernatural.

Which bonuses the schools I would have to decide based on the most appropriate techniques, but fire or air may or may not enter into it.

 

Once I get my hands on the book, I'll homebrew sort it all out. I am just waiting for the book to pop up on Amazon so I can order it.

well, as per the book, the Seppun guard is MEANT to be a duelist; bonus on initiative, and either Iai cut from the get go, and lots of earth and some void. all he need is fire and hes gucci.

hes strictly better than Kakita at duels, and gets the starting Iai tech which was the only Kakita low rank saving grace (but to be fair, that doesn't mean a lot lol).

so maybe they intend them to be good duelist after all? seems quite obvious to me. more of a political yojimbo than a random tower guard.
or should we say "honor guards" ?  

anyway, as much as i think the rules are fishy in a lot of cases, this time, the rings are right if their intention was to create a beastly duelist, and it sure seem that was their intention when you check the starting stuff and school ability.

at low rank (rank 1-2) this guy would probably be the best duelist in the game aside maybe Mirumoto and Hida and Hiruma.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Avatar111

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Well, the important thing to remember here is they get to pick which Iaijutsu technique they get. Rising Cut is very important as a Finishing Blow option for some types of duels, but Crossing Cut is better suited to a skirmish due to additional damage and the increased range. With a high vigilance, they are harder to target with many techniques to obfuscate or confuse, and roll better initiative even when surprised (and IIRC their school ability is INIT based also) and Iaijutsu means they can draw and cut in a single action, hopefully reacting quickly to the threat and ending it before anything bad happens - right on theme for the school training the Emperor's personal guard. Water and Air are also tied to sizing up enemies and understanding their motivations and the terrain around you. 

[Avatar111 553]

24 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Well, the important thing to remember here is they get to pick which Iaijutsu technique they get. Rising Cut is very important as a Finishing Blow option for some types of duels, but Crossing Cut is better suited to a skirmish due to additional damage and the increased range. With a high vigilance, they are harder to target with many techniques to obfuscate or confuse, and roll better initiative even when surprised (and IIRC their school ability is INIT based also) and Iaijutsu means they can draw and cut in a single action, hopefully reacting quickly to the threat and ending it before anything bad happens - right on theme for the school training the Emperor's personal guard. Water and Air are also tied to sizing up enemies and understanding their motivations and the terrain around you. 

rising cut is basically 1 less TN in duels on finishing blow... Lets not get into that. but yeah, crossing cut should probably be a TN3, at TN2 it is too strong considering the dmg, range and utility.

but that aside! above comment had strictly nothing to do with the Seppun guard having Earth and Void.

sure air and water have their perks, all rings are "good" the guard probably wants fire too... But I just don't see anything wrong with Earth and Void for the Guard for rank 1. It totally works with his starting talent and school ability that compensate for his lower starting ini. it may be not how you envision it "narratively", but those rings sure work mechanically for that school design. A stoic, tireless honor guard / yojimbo with a quick draw and good initiative and one of the best duelist in the empire.

edit: and with void hes even got a knack for sensing supernatural threat... aint that hot ?
edit: and they basically only get 1 less starting vigilance, nothing that can't be fixed. vigilance is mostly a social thing anyway. and the guard without water and air is definitely not a social dude by the game's standard.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Avatar111

[TheHobgoblyn 352]

I am not arguing that the book doesn't make their mechanics good at dueling.

Simply that within the narrative, the Seppun have never remotely indicated being good at dueling and, in fact, never enter into duels period.

The whole iajutsu style dueling with something in-universe that the Kakita came up with the Crane really socially pushed as the most legitimate and proper way to resolve disputes. What dueling existed before that, like between the Kami-- the description of it makes it very clear that it was not iajutsu style dueling.

The status of the people that the Seppun tend to protect, both in case of aristocrats and monks, allow them to out-and-out dismiss any duel challenges without answering them. Furthermore, Seppun don't enter into tests for Topaz or Emerald Champion-- if they do, they have never won them. At no point does the Seppun's duty involve having to engage in iajutsu style dueling.

 

Narratively, the thing Seppun are meant to do is to be aware of threats before they come and to hunt down and investigate those threats.

Iajutsu dueling entirely indicates that two competitors are fully aware of one another, face one another with an agreement not to draw their blades until the other is ready as well, and then both draw as fast as they can and do a single strike before pulling their blade back.

Frankly, if your guard is completely worthless at detecting a threat and only after some assassin has struck you down can say to that assassin "Okay, now put your blade back into its sheath and square off with me under the established rules of gentlemanly  combat in a contest to see who can draw their blade faster" then they are less than worthless as a guard.

No matter how fast they could draw their blade, if they are entirely oblivious to all threats around them until those threats have already manifested themselves and done their damage, then it really doesn't matter.

Edited December 19, 2018 by TheHobgoblyn

[Avatar111 553]

 

14 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I am not arguing that the book doesn't make their mechanics good at dueling.

Simply that within the narrative, the Seppun have never remotely indicated being good at dueling and, in fact, never enter into duels period.

The whole iajutsu style dueling with something in-universe that the Kakita came up with the Crane really socially pushed as the most legitimate and proper way to resolve disputes. What dueling existed before that, like between the Kami-- the description of it makes it very clear that it was not iajutsu style dueling.

The status of the people that the Seppun tend to protect, both in case of aristocrats and monks, allow them to out-and-out dismiss any duel challenges without answering them. Furthermore, Seppun don't enter into tests for Topaz or Emerald Champion-- if they do, they have never won them. At no point does the Seppun's duty involve having to engage in iajutsu style dueling.

 

Narratively, the thing Seppun are meant to do is to be aware of threats before they come and to hunt down and investigate those threats.

Iajutsu dueling entirely indicates that two competitors are fully aware of one another, face one another with an agreement not to draw their blades until the other is ready as well, and then both draw as fast as they can and do a single strike before pulling their blade back.

Frankly, if your guard is completely worthless at detecting a threat and only after some assassin has struck you down can say to that assassin "Okay, now put your blade back into its sheath and square off with me under the established rules of gentlemanly  combat in a contest to see who can draw their blade faster" then they are less than worthless as a guard.

No matter how fast they could draw their blade, if they are entirely oblivious to all threats around them until those threats have already manifested themselves and done their damage, then it really doesn't matter.

hes got like 1 less vigilance as a starting character... and that is compensated by his school ability. hes perfectly fine to sense threat, and will get very GOOD at it once he gets some more school rank and put a point or two in water (because he shouldnt really care about air). sensing threat is mostly all about having a good vigilance INITIATIVE. and the +1 per school rank is better than any amount of air and water will give you.

all I'm saying is mechanically it works, the school is good. and it is a great (if not the best early on) duelist. he can sense supernatural threats with his good void too, have a lot or resilience and sacrifice (earth/void). to me that is really good and works for a yojimbo in court.

blame the designers then? dunno what to tell you. or do like me and houserule stuff you don't like... but the honor guard is not a broken design, it is merely a design you might not like "narratively". but we're talking about a game in which almost half the roster have more duel potential than kakita. so take that into consideration too, if you start houseruling stuff, you'll never see the end of it. trust me on that, i'm doing it and to keep everything "light and clean" you need to make a lot of sacrifice and be accepting of the design when it is only for narrative reasons.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Avatar111