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Boom Owl

Kylo v Poe

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Dion (Gold Squadron) played a stream game last night that ended up with Kylo vs. Poe.  (There was also an Upsilon, but it's mostly out of that mobile a fight.  Also, I think Dion was misusing Snoke, forgetting the range requirement.)  Kylo won, but I don't think that was a good example, because at one point the Poe player SLAM T-rolled to face Kylo head-on, at range 1, and considered it a good move.  (Why would you do that, when you're I6 against an I5, with a few minutes left on the clock?)

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1 minute ago, Cloaker said:

Thinking aloud, eh, typing aloud, err, just typing a thought, removing cards from Hyperspace is most likely the convenient solution. Ineffective increases over a year of pricing updates isn't going to serve as well. You have to stop the run factor. Run games happen more often then not because of bids, but they'll never REALLY go away. I mean, every OP game becomes a run game at some point, right?

What is great for the game is when there is a conclusive finish. Final 'splosions and all. BOOM. And much of the game has been geared to this now by FFG in second edition. Because we have more variance, more offensive crit mods, less regen, less defensive mods, less shields, more crits, and a damage deck that is far better designed. There are less two ship lists now, and that's good, means more models being bought. I personally find 4 ship+ lists to be much more fun. But anyways, the thing comes down to this in regards to Kylo Ren. There are some pilots coming that will put him in his place. They're Jedi, and in order to do it they'll need access to the same force tools, if not more, as I don't know how you're going to make a dial better than the silencers without utterly breaking the game. But regardless, deep bids just don't do anything good for the game. Zero. Less upgrade and ships is not what FFG wants long term. They want us using STUFF. Address the deep bid culture early on now, lest it ruin the impression of this as a competitive game where lining arcs matters more than just running from them.

 

To say it another way: It's not the bid that enables the run game, it's the winning condition. If you're up on points, can safely disengage and can run for XX minutes left in the match, running is probably the correct strategy. Not the fun strategy, I agree, and not one I'd advocate, but it's the correct strategy. You could easily get into a running position with a ship like Kylo without the bid - your opponent brought a four ship list with no Init 5 pilots, a big bid and losses a ship... Kylo runs forever even if it were a 200 point FO list.

Vader could easily have been Kylo earlier on... and probably is against a lot of lists but is currently being suppressed by... kinda thinking just better options on the Imperial side, really. Gosh Redline is so cheap. Whisper with Vader crew is spectacular. Why take SNR/Vader when you can have both of these ships? Which lists are taking the stupid bids? Redline/Whisper. Why? Because Redline wants to torp something real bad.

I believe deep bids are a product of the imbalance of some of these existing init 5 ships. But - bids are a topic of another discussion so I'll move on.

 

 

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I just want to stake out a somewhat different viewpoint: I enjoy when a game ends in a tense run-and-chase.

I don't like it when the run-and-chase starts 20 minutes into the game, but that's a different thing.  I don't think a game ending with one player running is necessarily unenjoyable.

Perhaps that's colored by the fact that I'm so bad at running.  When I'm trying to run during the last five or 10 minutes of a game, I constantly feel like my opponent could easily read my moves, catch up to my ship(s), and win the game ... and that tension is fun.

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2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I just want to stake out a somewhat different viewpoint: I enjoy when a game ends in a tense run-and-chase.

I don't like it when the run-and-chase starts 20 minutes into the game, but that's a different thing.  I don't think a game ending with one player running is necessarily unenjoyable.

Perhaps that's colored by the fact that I'm so bad at running.  When I'm trying to run during the last five or 10 minutes of a game, I constantly feel like my opponent could easily read my moves, catch up to my ship(s), and win the game ... and that tension is fun.

I don't think it's that different a view point, really. The tricky bit is that some ships are in so little danger when the chase begins that, unless they mess up big time, they are content running along. That is miserable to play out. A catchable opponent is a game.

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1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

I don't think it's that different a view point, really. The tricky bit is that some ships are in so little danger when the chase begins that, unless they mess up big time, they are content running along. That is miserable to play out. A catchable opponent is a game.

^^^nailed it^^^

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19 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

It sounds pretty good. I'd want to test it out before I could back that strategy. It's still very potent, but at least there would be some level of reaction to it. Whisper though remained quite the threat for a long while despite the cloaking nerf so I'm not sure it's the correct call... but it might be sufficient.

Hyperspace is already a limited type event so banning a card from that isn't exactly the end of the world.

1.0 Whisper was amazing for 3 reasons. 4 red dice, 4 green dice and a focus assuming you got to shoot first, and the unpredictability of cloaking. The nerf only toned down one of those factors so unsurprising she stuck around until a preponderance of PS10/11s finally drove her out. 2.0 she's just amazing cause of all the token stacking at a level that little else has access to

Let's be honest, it's not there yet but hyperspace is most likely going to be THE format moving forward. It's in a weird state now due to the low ship counts in several of the factions but for better or worse I expect extended to largely go the way of epic in the long run. So banning something in hyperspace is effectively the same as banning it from the game, would prefer is fix if that's possible (even if that fix is banning SNR and replacing it with "Force Reflexes" or some other mechanically fairer but basically identical card)

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I'm not sure if a Kylo v Poe comparison really means anything.  Kylo will generally cost more, so he should generally be better.  Without consideration of full lists, it's hard to even start.  And, I'm fully on the boat now of "your anecdotal evidence of how many times you won matchup X with your list Y doesn't mean much to me unless I see the game(s) in action (so I can judge and armchair quarterback)".  

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29 minutes ago, Makaze said:

1.0 Whisper was amazing for 3 reasons. 4 red dice, 4 green dice and a focus assuming you got to shoot first, and the unpredictability of cloaking. The nerf only toned down one of those factors so unsurprising she stuck around until a preponderance of PS10/11s finally drove her out. 2.0 she's just amazing cause of all the token stacking at a level that little else has access to

Good points. You're correct.

Anyway, wasn't saying your third option was wrong either. FFG have tools now to deal with it if they believe SNR is a problem. They could even use a combination, short-term ban to test and errata the card.

 

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59 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

DING DING DING

I have no idea why anyone wouldn't bring 6's, in extended or hyperspace.

Because, in extended at least, I6s are significantly less efficient for the points than I5s such as Redline, Whisper, and Boba which is very much born out in tournament results...? Just maybe

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Played Supernatural Kylo + Snoke against a bb-Poe last night. It did not end well for Poe. Even with the pre-maneuvering from Poe he was pretty easy to kill box in the first couple rounds of shooting.

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2 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

DING DING DING

I have no idea why anyone wouldn't bring 6's, in extended or hyperspace. 

 

 

6s?

Kylo can shoot at 7, if he wants. 

First, joust and take a hit from Poe. 

Next, flip and torp him at 7 and hand him his happy 2 stress from ISYTDS he got last round. 

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29 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

6s?

Kylo can shoot at 7, if he wants. 

First, joust and take a hit from Poe. 

Next, flip and torp him at 7 and hand him his happy 2 stress from ISYTDS he got last round. 

Heightened perception Kylo is a dead Kylo. 

I cringe a little bit every time I see this upgrade.

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1 hour ago, Crit Happens said:

Heightened perception Kylo is a dead Kylo. 

I cringe a little bit every time I see this upgrade.

I get ya. I was just making a point about what an I5 like him can do with other force talent options. 

Granted, you don't get to move at 7, but Kylo has the HP to take a solid hit, and then he can follow up with a kill shot Torp later at I7...

Some trick like this could potentially PS-kill sixes like Poe.

Not saying flying Kylo this way is best. I'm just saying that because of his force talent and his sturdier chassis, it's possible, and it's something that Blackout can't do to Poe. 

Force options aside, ISYTDS needs to probably be a central part of Kylo game planning.

As in, if you're not doing anything with Kylo's ability to crit under shields, then... Just fly Blackout. 

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1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Kylo's passive mods and ability to carry Supernatural Reflexes are much more valuable than ISYTDS.

This.

You're not paying 82 for ISYTDS.  You're paying for built in AdvS, 2 force tokens, and an engagement deterrent.

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16 hours ago, LagJanson said:

I don't think it's that different a view point, really. The tricky bit is that some ships are in so little danger when the chase begins that, unless they mess up big time, they are content running along. That is miserable to play out. A catchable opponent is a game.

Which is, again, an issue with a Silencer. Bank Boost/Speed 5 Straight or Speed 2 Turn/Barrel Roll even when starting from stressed means that 'catching' him if he has no intention of engaging is not easy - and, compared with, say, Soontir Fel, the "I've got a shot on you! 1 Damage! ahahaaha!" goes from "Bloody ****, I've lost 1/3 of my hits and my stealth device" to "Shield token. Dink!"

10 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Kylo's passive mods and ability to carry Supernatural Reflexes are much more valuable than ISYTDS.

I think I'll Show You The Dark Side can be useful, if you have a 'spare' force token after resolving an enemy attack....but I agree wholeheartedly that I wouldn't touch him as a pilot without Supernatural Reflexes and his one-per-turn force token is almost always earmarked for repositioning because avoiding the attack in the first place is massively better than adding negative consequences to it.

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I played 2 league games last night. One each with a Kylo list and 1 with a Rey/Poe list. Kylo Ren With Supernatural Reflexes is in my opinion superior to Poe in his ability to shed stress (I.e. never have it) never worry about getting shots due his pre-engagement movement options, his better dial and ability to always get shots.

On the other hand Poe seemed like more work, meaning everything I decided was done thinking how it affected him not only premovement but also how he was setting up his shots before his engagement. 

Swarm Tactics is a thing. My opponent used it in his list against my Poe. I used it with my QD/Null/Kylo. It’s going to become prevalent. In my opinion Kylo is easier in every way to use, and frankly more enjoyable.

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12 hours ago, bydand said:

This.

You're not paying 82 for ISYTDS.  You're paying for built in AdvS, 2 force tokens, and an engagement deterrent.

I'm confused how you get "built in advanced sensors" at 82 points? Or are you just referring to supernatural reflexes and I misunderstood

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22 hours ago, LagJanson said:

It sounds pretty good. I'd want to test it out before I could back that strategy. It's still very potent, but at least there would be some level of reaction to it. Whisper though remained quite the threat for a long while despite the cloaking nerf so I'm not sure it's the correct call... but it might be sufficient.

Hyperspace is already a limited type event so banning a card from that isn't exactly the end of the world.

The cloak nerf brought Whisper back down to the level of the ships in the rest of the game at the time and made Echo competitively unviable. I really like that proposed change to SNR being in the system phase, you'd think the designers would have learned from their mistakes in Wave 4 (and yes, the people who designed 2.0 are the same people that designed Wave 4). But I commented on SNR being the same problem as pre-nerf phantoms on the coruscant invitational stream and Alex Davy literally laughed and said that SNR isn't anywhere close to as bad as pre-nerf Phantoms were, so that's an indicator on how the 2.0 designers feel about this issue. That was before Kylo though. 

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2 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

I'm confused how you get "built in advanced sensors" at 82 points? Or are you just referring to supernatural reflexes and I misunderstood

Supernatural. My point being I can't imagine flying a Kylo list aimed at being any level of competitive without that card stapled to him. 

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FFG seems very strongly to want the Iconic Force users to not only be good but set apart from the rest of the pilots. SNR and the tokens let them do that. 

Force users w/SNR are not just "high init w/passive mods" but totally different ships.

Edited by impspy

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