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Boom Owl

Kylo v Poe

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Poe is interesting because he's way efficient, and largely plays the game fair, excepting some expensive very limited resources he can expend to cheat.  Kylo is much more expensive, but he just cheats.

I tend to like Poe because I like playing the game, and Poe's I6 makes other people's cheating a little harder to do.  He's basically like super Wedge, all in good ways.  He's a regular ship, just really good at it.  

Kylo can go anywhere, but given time constraints of a typical game, that means he does a lot of running to time.  That's fine for people for whom that's their thing.  It's not mine.

Obviously none of this is a tactical analysis.

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On 12/16/2018 at 1:30 PM, Biophysical said:

Poe is interesting because he's way efficient, and largely plays the game fair, excepting some expensive very limited resources he can expend to cheat.  Kylo is much more expensive, but he just cheats.

I tend to like Poe because I like playing the game, and Poe's I6 makes other people's cheating a little harder to do.  He's basically like super Wedge, all in good ways.  He's a regular ship, just really good at it.  

Kylo can go anywhere, but given time constraints of a typical game, that means he does a lot of running to time.  That's fine for people for whom that's their thing.  It's not mine.

Obviously none of this is a tactical analysis.

If FFG makes bid points count as destroyed points, this changes all of that silliness. We get the game as they probably intended. Doubt they want to see ships flying away from each other at World's but that's what were going to get at this rate.

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1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

If FFG makes bid points count as destroyed points, this changes all of that silliness. We get the game as they probably intended. Doubt they want to see ships flying away from each other at World's but that's what were going to get at this rate.

Doesn't solve any of the underlying problems. 

Just make Super Natural 50 points at i5+ and move on. 

Up Up Advanced Sensors as well.

Or remove both cards entirely from Hyperspace format which I think is the best option in general. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

If FFG makes bid points count as destroyed points, this changes all of that silliness. We get the game as they probably intended. Doubt they want to see ships flying away from each other at World's but that's what were going to get at this rate.

lol, no. 

 

what you get from kylo if he engages in full running is a ship that spends both its force points on repositioning and pilot ability, and then... what? we've watched Vader die after supernatural and action stacking like crazy. kylo wont be any different. all you have to do is kill the VERY easy to kill wing mates and ignore kylo, who either cant hit you because he lacks mods, or wont because he's fleeing. 

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14 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

lol, no. 

 

what you get from kylo if he engages in full running is a ship that spends both its force points on repositioning and pilot ability, and then... what? we've watched Vader die after supernatural and action stacking like crazy. kylo wont be any different. all you have to do is kill the VERY easy to kill wing mates and ignore kylo, who either cant hit you because he lacks mods, or wont because he's fleeing. 

I get what you're saying, but Kylo gets 10x the use out of SR than Vader. Kylo has access to both SR barrel roll and boost with no penalties, and can then reposition a second time before activating. All Vader has over Kylo is I6, which is only slightly more relevant currently than I5 with a bid.

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22 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Doesn't solve any of the underlying problems. 

Just make Super Natural 50 points at i5+ and move on. 

Respectfully entering into dialogue here with you---interested in your insight. You don't think the absolute cluster**** of Init 5s dropping into the basement is the primary problem?

Supernatural Reflexes should be in the game. The Republic is going to be Jedi heavy, for sure. It's pretty much their entire identity. Unfair to take away their best option by pricing it through the roof for their aces. Vader is already disappearing from the game--he lasted all of what, 2 months? A hike in SR to 50 points pretty much ensures you'll never see him again. Until something better for Force is released (book on it being available ONLY in the prequel sets so Imperial players buy them for the card) he needs Supernatural. It's pretty much HIS Force talent. And make no mistake, FFG is going to want to see the Iconic pilots in the game. They'll be priced to fit, highly favorably.

Bids are the problem because they're toxic for OP, and even more ridiculous in casual. No other game is as boring as X-Wing Miniatures where they aren't actually playing the game. Any outside person watching it would think it's ridiculous. "So you're not playing the game and that is how you win? Psst... not for me...." Not exactly the best way to bring in new players. Pricing might help a bit, but being priced exorbitantly is something that I think FFG will shy away from, as it shows their mistakes in play test design and diminishes player base trust. Vader playing ball with Kylo, not having to worry about chasing bid points becomes a different game. "Give yourself to the Dark Side." Dark side don't run. They HATE..... :)

Again, all respect, but pricing a single card through the roof is not the sort of solution for what makes the game invert on its' base design, which is ships facing off to pew pew. But, I'm open to hearing the underlying problems you posing here--and how bid points as destroyed doesn't solve them better.

Edited by Cloaker

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15 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

what you get from kylo if he engages in full running is a ship that spends both its force points on repositioning and pilot ability, and then... what? we've watched Vader die after supernatural and action stacking like crazy. kylo wont be any different. all you have to do is kill the VERY easy to kill wing mates and ignore kylo, who either cant hit you because he lacks mods, or wont because he's fleeing. 

Except that Kylo doesn't have to make a choice between running and engaging unless he's up against 6s. If you ignore him then he boost+BRs into R1 out of arc, takes a TL as his normal action, and has a spare force left to mod those 4 rerolled dice. Kylo may punch weak while he's also running/dodging everything but if you don't constantly at least threaten him to force him to burn actions he hits just fine

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9 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Bids are the problem because they're toxic for OP

Bids are a problem when an imbalance already exists. The bid is saying "I don't need these points to beat you with what I have already." A couple of points aren't a problem, 15 is nuts.

Edit: Adding more... A pilot like Kylo is tough to balance and may continually be a problem. It's not the bidding system, but the ability to boost/roll before your dial is super OP on high Init aces. Kylo is sillier simply because he can then add the roll/boost (opposite action) after he does a red maneuver thanks to Pattern Analyzer. Kylo is built to run.

Edited by LagJanson

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12 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Bids are a problem when an imbalance already exists. The bid is saying "I don't need these points to beat you with what I have already." A couple of points aren't a problem, 15 is nuts.

Edit: Adding more... A pilot like Kylo is tough to balance and may continually be a problem.

Agreed. But how is it done? Pricing him up by 50 instead of Supernatural means he's even more of a fortress--but, if the FO player is already down by their bid to start the game, it's a whole other deal. Kylo has to risk engagement, and not always on his terms.

Edited by Cloaker

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35 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

what you get from kylo if he engages in full running is a ship that spends both its force points on repositioning and pilot ability, and then... what? we've watched Vader die after supernatural and action stacking like crazy. kylo wont be any different. all you have to do is kill the VERY easy to kill wing mates and ignore kylo, who either cant hit you because he lacks mods, or wont because he's fleeing. 

I assume that Kylo's ability is "I5 SNR Ace with Auto- and Primed Thrusters" and never use ISYTD unless by some miracle I haven't spent a token yet and I won't need it for a subsequent attack or defense.

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Just now, Cloaker said:

Agreed. But how is it done? Pricing him up by 50 instead of Supernatural means he's even more of a fortress--but, if the FO player is already down by their bid to start the game, it's a whole other deal. Kylo has to risk engagement, and not always on his terms.

Without supernatural he can't do the pre-move boost/roll. That already makes it so his dial is important and dial decisions matter again. No, Kylo isn't the immediate point for price concern. Supernatural Reflex, Advanced Sensors, and maybe... maybe... Pattern Analyzer (I haven't really looked at this one) are the issue because they are removing consequences from less optimal decisions.

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Currently 8-2 against Poe in 2nd edition as Kylo. The fact that Kylo can boost>>talon>>br>>possibly still have mods is too much for a nearly-always stressed ace (see Kylo v Soontir even moving first in 1e). When Poe is destressed, that is a possible telegraph, and even with 3 banks white (a joke of a limitation to primed thrusters and autothrusters) the speed at which Kylo can vanish is stupid good. Poe also can get too pricey for what he does very quickly and the negative synergy with BB-8 outside of sinking more points into primed thrusters hurts a lot, leaving most Poes to take the unexhilerating R4.

 

My losses were more on me and my wins more on Kylo.

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12 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Without supernatural he can't do the pre-move boost/roll. That already makes it so his dial is important and dial decisions matter again. No, Kylo isn't the immediate point for price concern. Supernatural Reflex, Advanced Sensors, and maybe... maybe... Pattern Analyzer (I haven't really looked at this one) are the issue because they are removing consequences from less optimal decisions.

All of this, as a person who only has recently entered into competitive and community play in the past year, I can appreciate and ABSOLUTELY agree with this. But, as a counterpoint---if one of my buddy's children, who's not even a teenager yet, is playing the game, there's things like SR Kylo that can help him be better. Not perfect, or awesome, but even if it is 2%, better. Luke Gunner has been generally heralded as an example of this. Priced high, never seen use. So the need to have elements of the game to enable newbies to learn and enjoy it should exist--despite our most passionate feelings, it is NOT good for the game to be catered to the few. Beer & pretzels (or Lemonade & cookies) crowd need an "in" to the game to play their favorite characters from the Star Wars universe, and to be able to feel awesome while playing it. We want more players, right?

 

Now all of that being said---we're all probably just overreacting on Kylo/SR. Because the Jedi are coming. I'm not going to buy the prequel factions, but I'm glad they're happening. One force user from a faction vs. 3? Yeah, I6 Anakin & I5 Obi-Wan together are most likely going to put ol' F.O. Jr. in his place right soon. We just need to wait it out. This game is only 71% complete for Second Edition hyperspace. We ain't seen nothing yet.

Edited by Cloaker

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39 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Respectfully entering into dialogue here with you---interested in your insight. You don't think the absolute cluster**** of Init 5s dropping into the basement is the primary problem?

Supernatural Reflexes should be in the game. The Republic is going to be Jedi heavy, for sure. It's pretty much their entire identity. Unfair to take away their best option by pricing it through the roof for their aces. Vader is already disappearing from the game--he lasted all of what, 2 months? A hike in SR to 50 points pretty much ensures you'll never see him again. Until something better for Force is released (book on it being available ONLY in the prequel sets so Imperial players buy them for the card) he needs Supernatural. It's pretty much HIS Force talent. And make no mistake, FFG is going to want to see the Iconic pilots in the game. They'll be priced to fit, highly favorably.

Bids are the problem because they're toxic for OP, and even more ridiculous in casual. No other game is as boring as X-Wing Miniatures where they aren't actually playing the game. Any outside person watching it would think it's ridiculous. "So you're not playing the game and that is how you win? Psst... not for me...." Not exactly the best way to bring in new players. Pricing might help a bit, but being priced exorbitantly is something that I think FFG will shy away from, as it shows their mistakes in play test design and diminishes player base trust. Vader playing ball with Kylo, not having to worry about chasing bid points becomes a different game. "Give yourself to the Dark Side." Dark side don't run. They HATE..... :)

Again, all respect, but pricing a single card through the roof is not the sort of solution for what makes the game invert on its' base design, which is ships facing off to pew pew. But, I'm open to hearing the underlying problems you posing here--and how bid points as destroyed doesn't solve them better.

Yea the 50pt # was semi random. 

I really just want it banned from Hyperspace so the aces you mentioned can be free to evolve in more interesting ways. 

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15 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Now all of that being said---we're all probably just overreacting on Kylo/SR

I'm going to start with this point. Define "overreacting." He was a monster before in 1.0, and he'll be a monster now. First time I picked up Kylo was at a kit tournament, and I wanted to try out an arc dodger for once. No experience with the type of thing that I was about use... And it was easy mode. Only beat in the final table, on time, because my opponent killed my less than optimal wingmates and ran as Kylo slowly pulled his ships apart. Make no mistake, if you see SNR/Kylo across from you, stay alert because your opponent could make you look foolish. It's beatable, but your opponent has to mess up.

15 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

All of this, as a person who only has recently entered into competitive and community play in the past year, I can appreciate and ABSOLUTELY agree with this. But, as a counterpoint---if one of my buddy's children, who's not even a teenager yet, is playing the game, there's things like SR Kylo that can help him be better. Not perfect, or awesome, but even if it is 2%, better. Luke Gunner has been generally heralded as an example of this. Priced high, never seen use. So the need to have elements of the game to enable newbies to learn and get better should exist--despite our most passionate feelings, it is NOT good for the game to be catered to the few. Beer & pretzels (or Lemonade & cookies) crowd need an "in" to the game to play their favorite characters from the Star Wars universe, and to be able to feel awesome while playing it. We want more players, right?

Luke Gunner has made appearances on the grand stage, but yes, he's not seen often because he's priced so high that it's no longer efficient. Plus most ships that can take Luke as a useful gunner aren't so hard to pin down. (Han Solo... hrmm...)

Supernatural... may not be as easy. Kill 40 points of your opponent's list and run like heck is a winning strategy for Kylo simply because he can run the entire match. Giving him more points may not be the answer, and other supernatural pilots are problematic as well (though nowhere near as good due to the ships they fly.) The answer may be to price it so high that Kylo plus his cheapest companion (to make the list legal) can't afford the bid. Could remove it completely from Hyperspace limited events. There are options, so this is not a "sky is falling" scenario.

Edit: I like how Boom Owl posted banning SNR from Hyperspace while I was hitting send myself. Definitely the cleanest solution with the least unexpected consequences.

Edited by LagJanson

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9 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I like how Boom Owl posted banning SNR from Hyperspace while I was hitting send myself. Definitely the cleanest solution with the least unexpected consequences.

My favorite SNR fix heard to date is giving it the Whisper treatment by moving it to the System phase. I like pre-move maneuvers, I like how they create a Heisenbergian cloud of possibilities of where a ship will be, banning seems overly simplistic and heavy handed (there will always be a bogey man card and if our solution is banning things we don't like then where does that end?) The problem is the ability to use it reactionarilly, the ability to dial in a relatively safe move and figure it all out later. Take that away and SNR is still undoubtedly good, just not to the point where it needs to be priced into oblivion.

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Pre dial movement is a problem because it gives the already heavily advantaged higher initiative pilots even more of an advantage.

The force as a passively regenerating dice modification is already incredibly strong even if there weren't force powers or other ways to spend it. I wouldn't worry about jedi ships coming in for the Republic.

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5 minutes ago, Makaze said:

My favorite SNR fix heard to date is giving it the Whisper treatment by moving it to the System phase. I like pre-move maneuvers, I like how they create a Heisenbergian cloud of possibilities of where a ship will be, banning seems overly simplistic and heavy handed (there will always be a bogey man card and if our solution is banning things we don't like then where does that end?) The problem is the ability to use it reactionarilly, the ability to dial in a relatively safe move and figure it all out later. Take that away and SNR is still undoubtedly good, just not to the point where it needs to be priced into oblivion.

It sounds pretty good. I'd want to test it out before I could back that strategy. It's still very potent, but at least there would be some level of reaction to it. Whisper though remained quite the threat for a long while despite the cloaking nerf so I'm not sure it's the correct call... but it might be sufficient.

Hyperspace is already a limited type event so banning a card from that isn't exactly the end of the world.

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2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I'm going to start with this point. Define "overreacting." He was a monster before in 1.0, and he'll be a monster now. First time I picked up Kylo was at a kit tournament, and I wanted to try out an arc dodger for once. No experience with the type of thing that I was about use... And it was easy mode. Only beat in the final table, on time, because my opponent killed my less than optimal wingmates and ran as Kylo slowly pulled his ships apart. Make no mistake, if you see SNR/Kylo across from you, stay alert because your opponent could make you look foolish. It's beatable, but your opponent has to mess up.

Luke Gunner has made appearances on the grand stage, but yes, he's not seen often because he's priced so high that it's no longer efficient. Plus most ships that can take Luke as a useful gunner aren't so hard to pin down. (Han Solo... hrmm...)

Supernatural... may not be as easy. Kill 40 points of your opponent's list and run like heck is a winning strategy for Kylo simply because he can run the entire match. Giving him more points may not be the answer, and other supernatural pilots are problematic as well (though nowhere near as good due to the ships they fly.) The answer may be to price it so high that Kylo plus his cheapest companion (to make the list legal) can't afford the bid. Could remove it completely from Hyperspace limited events. There are options, so this is not a "sky is falling" scenario.

Thinking aloud, eh, typing aloud, err, just typing a thought, removing cards from Hyperspace is most likely the convenient solution. Ineffective increases over a year of pricing updates isn't going to serve as well. You have to stop the run factor. Run games happen more often then not because of bids, but they'll never REALLY go away. I mean, every OP game becomes a run game at some point, right?

What is great for the game is when there is a conclusive finish. Final 'splosions and all. BOOM. And much of the game has been geared to this now by FFG in second edition. Because we have more variance, more offensive crit mods, less regen, less defensive mods, less shields, more crits, and a damage deck that is far better designed. There are less two ship lists now, and that's good, means more models being bought. I personally find 4 ship+ lists to be much more fun. But anyways, the thing comes down to this in regards to Kylo Ren. There are some pilots coming that will put him in his place. They're Jedi, and in order to do it they'll need access to the same force tools, if not more, as I don't know how you're going to make a dial better than the silencers without utterly breaking the game. But regardless, deep bids just don't do anything good for the game. Zero. Less upgrade and ships is not what FFG wants long term. They want us using STUFF. Address the deep bid culture early on now, lest it ruin the impression of this as a competitive game where lining arcs matters more than just running from them.

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