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DXCrazytrain

A Very Average Players Kneejerk FO Reactions.

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Let me start by making it perfectly clear that I am a very average player. Also I have yet to get my FO stuff on the table yet but as I was a big FO fanboy in 1st ed, I’m excited to play them in 2nd. All this is just my kneejerk reactions and thoughts that have been rattling around in my head since the points were announced, all in no particular order.

Kylo is great but I’m not sure what to fly with him. Null is obvious but he’s going to get focused down quick and I’m worried about SFs only having 2 green dice. You could do another Silencer or an Upsilon but every other faction has great four ship combos that will eat a two ship list alive.

Speaking of four ship lists, try as I might, my very average brain has yet to find a four ship FO list that trips my trigger. Everything seems just a bit too expensive to fit, by design no doubt but it’s frustrating nonetheless.

I want to love Recoil with predator and Prockets but I have a feeling an I4 generic Silencer with Fanatical will be more efficient.

I’m annoyed the conversion kit only comes with 3 Fanaticals. You can get one more by paying $20 for a Tie/FO or get three more by buying another conversion kit for $30. I get that FFG is a business that wants to make money but it’s still annoying.

I am convinced that Advanced Optics is bad. Even if it were only one or two points I would still think long and hard about putting it in a list. The only place I can see using it is I1s that have already defended and have Fanatical to flip an eye. Otherwise it’s too many points for too little return.

I can’t wait to try Phasma/Thanisson crew shenanigans.

Speaking of the Upsilon, it’s close to prohibitively expensive for something that will melt very quickly and not get more than 2 or 3 shots a game. Would it be insane if it were to have a white stop maneuver?

Overall, like everything else in the game, FO seems a little on the weak side, but I have no doubt that this is just because they want to leave room to power creep in future waves which will in turn get you to cough up your money for the stronger stuff (see waves 1-14 of 1st ed). This makes me very curious for the next couple ships in the faction. My money is on the red interceptor from Resistance next, followed, I hope, by an FO variant of the Tie Bomber. What I really want is a strong 34 point spammable ship like barrage bombers or Quadjumpers, something that you can put 3 of alongside an ace and win a store championship with.

Like I said, this is all knee jerk and I am a very average player so you have to take all my analysis with a grain of salt. Monday night will be my first chance to get FO ships on the table and we’ll see what I think then. In the meantime what do you think? Thanks for reading.  #walloftext

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In Extended format, yeah, I can see where you might think that the First Order is a little weak.  But only a little.  I've only played against it in the Hyperspace format, and it is rock-solid there.  Very, very solid.  So.  Maybe give it a shot in Extended, and if it just plain stinks on ice, request your opponents use Hyperspace and you'll be golden.  My two cents, from the other side of the table.  Cheers!

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So with Kylo you can go either one of 2 ways: big bid or good wingmates. Having flown Vader for most of 2nd edition I can tell you that good wingmates>bid if push comes to shove. Taking cheap things that can be ignored will just let your opponents focus down Kylo. Bring someone they can't ignore:
 

The Kylo Show (197)
Kylo Ren — TIE Silencer	82
Supernatural Reflexes	12
Primed Thrusters	8
Ship Total: 102
Half Points: 51 Threshold: 3
 	
"Quickdraw" — TIE/SF Fighter	45
Fanatical	2
Special Forces Gunner	10
Fire-Control System	3
Ship Total: 60
Half Points: 30 Threshold: 3
 	
"Null" — TIE/FO Fighter	31
Squad Leader	4
Ship Total: 35
Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2

Now your opponent has to decide which threat to go after: SNR Kylo or QD/Null with I7 coordinate. Add Biohexacrypt Codes if you're playing extended and you can really mess with your opponents.

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42 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Let me start by making it perfectly clear that I am a very average player.

I need some more data here. 

Like, you win every other game? Did you take a test and get a "C"?

Lol. Just messing with ya, crazytrain.

Welcome to the "average" club. We're all pretty average around here. 

Actually, I recently discovered that only certain X-Wingers are gifted with magical force powers. As soon as they discover their powers, they slip off the forums and go silent ...

But fear not, they are not far. 

They observe us muggles from afar, giggling to themselves about our petty conversations and weak minds. 

We're a friendly bunch, though! 

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11 minutes ago, impspy said:

So with Kylo you can go either one of 2 ways: big bid or good wingmates. Having flown Vader for most of 2nd edition I can tell you that good wingmates>bid if push comes to shove. Taking cheap things that can be ignored will just let your opponents focus down Kylo. Bring someone they can't ignore:
 


The Kylo Show (197)
Kylo Ren — TIE Silencer	82
Supernatural Reflexes	12
Primed Thrusters	8
Ship Total: 102
Half Points: 51 Threshold: 3
 	
"Quickdraw" — TIE/SF Fighter	45
Fanatical	2
Special Forces Gunner	10
Fire-Control System	3
Ship Total: 60
Half Points: 30 Threshold: 3
 	
"Null" — TIE/FO Fighter	31
Squad Leader	4
Ship Total: 35
Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2

Now your opponent has to decide which threat to go after: SNR Kylo or QD/Null with I7 coordinate. Add Biohexacrypt Codes if you're playing extended and you can really mess with your opponents.

I like it! Those three together went into the testing queue as soon as I saw Null's ability.

Edited by DXCrazytrain

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1 hour ago, DXCrazytrain said:

I am convinced that Advanced Optics is bad. Even if it were only one or two points I would still think long and hard about putting it in a list. The only place I can see using it is I1s that have already defended and have Fanatical to flip an eye. Otherwise it’s too many points for too little return.

Depends on what ship.

On an Upsilon with either Perceptive Copilot or Force Charges?  That's solid.  It's about the same as focus/lock (a bit worse, but not much), but from a single action, and allows the tactical flexibility for a usually low-init ship to pick the best available target each round.

On a 2-attack dice ship, like a non-Gunner SF* or any TIE/FO or RZ-2 A-Wing?  It's also solid.  On 2 dice, you're much more likely to have the ideal "Hit/Blank" outcome, and you only have like a 44% chance to roll eyes on your attack roll, so you likely won't waste the opportunity.

On 3-attack dice with only 1 focus token?  It's weak.  With a 58% chance to roll eyes, the times you'll use it over normal focus use are pretty rare.  But add Fanatical, and it's probably fairly decent.

 

*Non-Gunner SF are going to be generally weak, but consider something like Backdraft with just Advanced Optics.  They'll have a decent shot from front arc without trying, and SFGunner often won't do much for BD's rear shot anyhow.  Seems like an OK budget build.

Edited by theBitterFig

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From my few games with FO so far:

Tavson is awesome

Quickdraw is still deadly

Keep silencers relatively cheap. The named all have good abilities. Lots of love around for recoil which I dont get. I4 getting range 1 on the ships that are actually competitive is a problem (Redlines,Whispers,Soontirs,Boba welcomes you to range 1 as does 4lom, Palob, Wedge, etc.). Im more hyped for avenger who gets actions after one of those baddies kills a bigger threat like your Quickdraw, Blackout, Midnight, Null, etc.

There are some good four ship list builds. I have yet to test them, but you can get Tavson,Quickdraw,Midnight, and Null into a list. Or Avenger,Quickdraw,Midnight, Null.

 

Advanced optics isnt bad outright. Its good on 2 dice attacks.

2 red dice with a focus = 1.5 expected hits

2 red dice with a focus and a lock = 1.875 expected hits

2 red dice with a focus and a howlrunner reroll = 1.83 expected hits

2 red dice with a focus and advanced optics = 1.81 expected hits

So, adv optics and a focus is very similar to having howrunner in your squad. The downside is you need the focus where as howrunner gives you rerolls regardless. The upside is no need to fly range 1, no howlrunner dying and killing all your action economy.

Optics is also good on ships who can change eyeballs to hits like fanatical Midnight, Malaris, Kylo.

3 red dice with focus + lock = 2.81 expected hits

Kylo with focus, 1 force, and advanced optics tossing 3 red dice = 2.78 expected hits

So, by kylo just taking a focus and regening a force every round, he essentially is getting a "full modded" shot.

And if Kylo has focus, force, and adv optics firing a proton torpedo, its money in the bank, practically 4 dice accuracy corrector with 3.93 expected hits (93% chance for 4 hits), compared to a normal focus/lock full mod shot of 3.75 expected hits (77% chance for 4 hits).

 

Edited by wurms

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9 minutes ago, wurms said:

Optics is also good on ships who can change eyeballs to hits like fanatical Midnight, Malaris, Kylo.

Don't lock with her if you're running any upgrade that mods dice. "While you defend or perform an attack, if you have a lock on the enemy ship, that ship's dice cannot be modified."

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Hyperspace is the better format anyway which is where First Order will be good. Why do I like the Hyperspace format? Variety. I know a lot of people are thinking that there is more variety and options in Extended but the reality is you have two dominant factions,  1 almost there factions and 2 faction s that probably can’t compete with the options of the others. This mean the variety is less. In Hyperspace, while scum look to be the best faction, you still have a more even playing field between the 5 factions which should provide more variety. 

In Hyperspace First Order look pretty fun. There are definitely a lot of options. FO actually have some of the better griefing mechanics with Kylo (either) Phasma, Thannison and Jam. They have synergy options with Hux or a Squad Leader TIE like Null. They also have self efficiency in Kylo which mostly disappears in Hyperspace. Fett and Vader have it, Luke to a degree. Lando and Rey are t bad either but it’s not like Whisper Redline Fel Guri etc...

I definitely think they are fun. Lots of options to try out. 

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16 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Speaking of the Upsilon, it’s close to prohibitively expensive for something that will melt very quickly and not get more than 2 or 3 shots a game. Would it be insane if it were to have a white stop maneuver?

It does have white stop actually, after you give Tavson following upgrades - Electronic Baffle, Pattern Analyzer and Gonk.

Edited by Jagos

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1 hour ago, wurms said:

From my few games with FO so far:

Tavson is awesome

Quickdraw is still deadly

Keep silencers relatively cheap. The named all have good abilities. Lots of love around for recoil which I dont get. I4 getting range 1 on the ships that are actually competitive is a problem (Redlines,Whispers,Soontirs,Boba welcomes you to range 1 as does 4lom, Palob, Wedge, etc.). Im more hyped for avenger who gets actions after one of those baddies kills a bigger threat like your Quickdraw, Blackout, Midnight, Null, etc.

There are some good four ship list builds. I have yet to test them, but you can get Tavson,Quickdraw,Midnight, and Null into a list. Or Avenger,Quickdraw,Midnight, Null.

 

Advanced optics isnt bad outright. Its good on 2 dice attacks.

2 red dice with a focus = 1.5 expected hits

2 red dice with a focus and a lock = 1.875 expected hits

2 red dice with a focus and a howlrunner reroll = 1.83 expected hits

2 red dice with a focus and advanced optics = 1.81 expected hits

So, adv optics and a focus is very similar to having howrunner in your squad. The downside is you need the focus where as howrunner gives you rerolls regardless. The upside is no need to fly range 1, no howlrunner dying and killing all your action economy.

Optics is also good on ships who can change eyeballs to hits like fanatical Midnight, Malaris, Kylo.

3 red dice with focus + lock = 2.81 expected hits

Kylo with focus, 1 force, and advanced optics tossing 3 red dice = 2.78 expected hits

So, by kylo just taking a focus and regening a force every round, he essentially is getting a "full modded" shot.

And if Kylo has focus, force, and adv optics firing a proton torpedo, its money in the bank, practically 4 dice accuracy corrector with 3.93 expected hits (93% chance for 4 hits), compared to a normal focus/lock full mod shot of 3.75 expected hits (77% chance for 4 hits).

 

Thank you for the numbers, maybe I shouldn't write Adv Ops off quite yet. However I do think Kylo needs to maintain maximum squirreliness, which means he probably wants pattern analyzer or primed thrusters more.

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There are a few 4-ship lists I think have legs, though whether or not you spend the points for one or two ships is the question. 

 

The best part of FO, I think, is Fanatical. You know what's rarer in 2.0? Dice mods.

 

Fanatical is more or less guaranteed attack modification as the game moves on... everything burns in 2.0.

 

QD, Longshot, Scorch, Generic Silencers, maybe Tavson in the Upsilon.

 

Mix and match... any of those sport 24-26 hp and throw at least 3 dice each.

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18 hours ago, impspy said:

Taking cheap things that can be ignored will just let your opponents focus down Kylo.

So? Kylo is either going to arc-dodge or (EDIT: just arc-dodge, really, or zip to R3 behind a rock. He can't evade). My last game against him I "caught" him in a killbox and threw 9 dice at him for a total of 1 damage. I focused on him the entire rest of the game and never hit him again.

Edited by Quarrel

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9 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

Hyperspace is the better format anyway which is where First Order will be good. Why do I like the Hyperspace format? Variety. I know a lot of people are thinking that there is more variety and options in Extended but the reality is you have two dominant factions,  1 almost there factions and 2 faction s that probably can’t compete with the options of the others. This mean the variety is less. In Hyperspace, while scum look to be the best faction, you still have a more even playing field between the 5 factions which should provide more variety. 

But it's the same 4 ships per faction everywhere. In Extended there are a lot of dark horses, for the people not lemming-wise blindly following the Echo chambers of forum, reddit, Fb groups and pods. In Hyperspace the pool is much smaller, also a much smaller pool for (as) good[Tm] (perceived) stuff. For variety you have to change faction. And the pool of counters within a fraction is very limited. 

As for your example Scum. I really like to play that faction, and have a ton of ships for it, mostly the snubfighters Kihraxz, Scyk, Y, G1A, Z95 etc.

Guess how many of the Hyperspace legal ships I have.

Zero, right. So much for variety.

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With two very decent an reasonably cheap I6 pilots, First Order might just be pretty decent in a meta where everyone is I5. You can just about fit in Tavson, Midnight, Quickdraw and Null with minimal upgrades (SF Gunner, Elusive and 2x Fanatical?). Alternatively, replace Tavson with Commander Glitterstim and fill up on upgrades.

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i'd talk to your local players about the card situation. I know, I would not care if you wanted to use a "card" on multiple ships and did not have enough of the card to get them all. Just tell me before the game or have it written down on your "fleet list" for reference so I dont forget what ships have it. 

****, I wouldnt even care if it was in a tourney or whatnot (although the tourney runners might care).

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9 hours ago, Quarrel said:

So? Kylo is either going to arc-dodge or turtle up. My last game against him I "caught" him in a killbox and threw 9 dice at him for a total of 1 damage. I focused on him the entire rest of the game and never hit him again.

What exactly do you mean by turtle up? Take a focus? That's hardly turtling up. 

You have one example of having possibly bad dice (not sure if your shots were modded or not), and you think Kylo is unkillable? Try again, he dies when taking shots.

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Tavson is easily the coolest, most unique thing in the entire faction

Ditto the upsilon model 

Scary Tavson

(62) Lieutenant Tavson
(8) Advanced Sensors
(10) Perceptive Copilot
(5) Captain Phasma
(4) Advanced Optics
Points 89

(35) "Scorch"
(2) Fanatical
Points 37

(41) Commander Malarus
(1) Crack Shot
Points 42

(32) "Muse"
Points 32

Total points: 200

Muse turns Tavson  into a static railgun emplacement that is still fully  capable of supporting fos. Tell me that doesn't sound hilarious!

 

As for strength relative to extended, I assume our perception will change with upcoming points rebalances 

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8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Tavson is easily the coolest, most unique thing in the entire faction

Ditto the upsilon model 

Scary Tavson

(62) Lieutenant Tavson
(8) Advanced Sensors
(10) Perceptive Copilot
(5) Captain Phasma
(4) Advanced Optics
Points 89

(35) "Scorch"
(2) Fanatical
Points 37

(41) Commander Malarus
(1) Crack Shot
Points 42

(32) "Muse"
Points 32

Total points: 200

Muse turns Tavson  into a static railgun emplacement that is still fully  capable of supporting fos. Tell me that doesn't sound hilarious!

 

As for strength relative to extended, I assume our perception will change with upcoming points rebalances 

You've inspired me sir. Here's my take on your idea.

Tav Muse BO (200/200)
====================
TIE/FO Fighter: "Muse" (32 + 2)
    + Fanatical (2)
Upsilon-class Command Shuttle: Lieutenant Tavson (62 + 28)
    + Advanced Optics (4)
    + Pattern Analyzer (5)
    + Captain Phasma (5)
    + Petty Officer Thanisson (4)
    + Perceptive Copilot (10)
TIE/vn Silencer: "Blackout" (70 + 6)
    + Trick Shot (1)
    + Pattern Analyzer (5)

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