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Zamzoph

Rules regarding the Vengeful Spirit

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While having played a couple of matches of Horus Heresy thus far, it appears to me that there are some rules left unclear concerning the Vengeful Spirit.  Fellow player interpretations are welcome, but I'm hoping for official answers for the following:

1.  This one's mainly a sanity test:  Does the Boarding Action order ignore the normal restrictions of moves only being permitted to friendly or neutral areas, despite being a Move order?

2.  Can a Port Landing order place units onto contested or enemy areas of the Vengeful spirit?

3.  Can a Port Landing order played on the Vengeful Spirit place units from the stockpile?

4.  Do Port Landing and Drop Pod orders allow for heroes to be moved to and from the Vengeful Spirit, despite the facts that they're not Move orders and heroes are left unspecified?

5. Is it possible for the Command Center to become breached?

6.  Can Magnus the Red use his special ability within the Vengeful Spirit?

7.  Does the The Sky Fortress Rises event allow for units to be moved from the Vengeful Spirit to Terra (meaning that it is not against the Vengeful Spirit as the event restricts)?

That's all I have for now.  Others can feel free to ask their own questions about the Vengeful Spirit.

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I would love to know the answer to point 1 as well.

This issue actually halted our game for a while the other night. My friend, playing Imperial, wanted to attack the Vengeful Spirit. However, there's no way to fire on it from adjacent spaces, and I had units in the Spirit Catacombs. The name of Boarding Action, and indeed logic, seems to indicate that you can assault the Vengeful Spirit by way of this card, however the rules state that you cannot move into an enemy-occupied area and the card states it is a move action.

Does this mean the ONLY way for the Imperial player to assault the Vengeful Spirit is if the Traitor player is foolish enough to leave the Spirit Catacombs empty after voluntarily moving his units out? This seems somewhat unfair to the Imperial player, as well as being historically inaccurate!

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Exaar said:

This seems somewhat unfair to the Imperial player, as well as being historically inaccurate!

Don't know about unfairness, but as far as history goes, seems more on the ball than not. In the real battle, Horus deliberately dropped the shields on the Vengeful Spirit to lure Emp into attacking him onboard. Suggesting the Imperials couldn't have boarded the ship otherwise.

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Reading the rules carefully, page 21 calls both "secret routes" and "boarding action" exception cards.  Reading the paragraph seems to heavily imply that you can use boarding action to invade the catacombs even if they are occupied.

Reading all of the imperial order cards, Boarding action is the ONLY card that lists specific spaces as destination targets.   I believe using the bold word 'move' was a poor word...they should have used some other word.

 

Oh, and a chaos player never has any reason to empty the catacombs.  If you must do so because you have no other reserve units, you have probably lost.

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Jaeger, are you sure abandoning catacombs is a bad idea? Horus may descend from Spirit to Terra and fight there. Loosing the Ship is not loosing the battle... Actually in my last game I saw Horus running from the Emperor who tried to catch him on the Vengful. The Traitor escaped to the palace. It was quite fun :).

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From reading pg 21 on movement. It appears that for normal movement. you cannot enter enemy occupied areas. The exception to this are the"Secret Routes" and " Boarding Action" Order cards. These 2 cards do allow you to enter enemy occupied areas.  The 'pods" order also allows movement from the Vengeful Spirit or stockpile directly into any areas including enemy areas.

 

Heroes can always tag along with any friendly units which are being moved regardless of whether it is normal move or via special orders. Since they don't count  towards stacking limits, they can be included with the units being moved or transported free.  The only limit is that for a regular move they have 3 movement points max. So for for regular movement purposes, they move just like other units.

 

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I'm confused by this one too. If the Vengeful Spirit can only be boarded using 'Boarding Action' if the Catacombs are empty, it seems ridiculously hard to do.

The bit in the rules on Page 21 that say 'Boarding Action' and 'Secret Routes' are exceptions to the rule would clear it up, but it's placed in a section talking about being able to make a full move to the target area, and not in the area talking about only being able to move to friendly/neutral areas.

Could someone at FFG let us know the answer to this one?

Thanks,

Eisley.

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i think so too and I would be pretty surprised if you can't move there, but since there are a couplke of other important questions, I think its time for a FAQ. 

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 Hy everybody,

I'm Fench, so excuse me for my bad english :-(

I was playing for the fouth time yesterday and I wondered :

If the emperor boards the Vengeful Spirit (catacombs, using the boarding action order) and kills everybody there,

Is there any way for traitor player to bring units in catacombs (which is now an ennemy area) ? 

If not, it would be an easy way for Imperium to win : Emperor just has to wait here not to be killed, until the end of initiative track.

Hope my question is understandable...

Thanx !

Miles.

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formynder said:

If the emperor boards the Vengeful Spirit (catacombs, using the boarding action order) and kills everybody there,

Is there any way for traitor player to bring units in catacombs (which is now an ennemy area) ? 

Without checking the wording on the Port Landing card, I'd say Traitor can't bring in more troops.

formynder said:

If not, it would be an easy way for Imperium to win : Emperor just has to wait here not to be killed, until the end of initiative track.

If the Emperor managed to clear the Catacombs in the coexistance battle, I'd guess he brought with him quite a number of Imperial troops, mainly Custodes and Space Marines. All those are now out of the picture as far as defending against the Spaceport Victory option, the easier Traitor win option IMO.

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 Ok thank you,

So, there is only one way for the Emperor to board the VS : Boarding action

And only one way for Traitor to get it back (if occupied by ennemy) : the Secret Routes order.

So I guess it's a good way to win (for emperor player) : To take the VS's Catacombs and wait here (and hope the traitor won't draw the "Secret Route Card") AND to place all other units defending a spaceport... In this case, good luck to traitor to draw Secret Route order card before game ending !!!!

Hope this time my english was not too bad...

What I'm trying to say is : Once you've won the coexistance battle in Catacombs with Emperor, you've almost won cause traitoir has only ONE way to bring units back on Vengeful Spirit (which is an ennemy zone) : The "Secret Route Card".
They may say traitor can attack from Command Center, but you can only put 3 units there..

Miles

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Remember port landing and pods can be used to bring units from the vengeful spirit to terra, so if the Imperial player boards the vengeful spirit and doesnt attack the command center straight away, the traitor player can use either of those orders to bring horus to terra, making the assault a waste of time and units.

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Three Headed Monkey said:

Remember port landing and pods can be used to bring units from the vengeful spirit to terra, so if the Imperial player boards the vengeful spirit and doesnt attack the command center straight away, the traitor player can use either of those orders to bring horus to terra, making the assault a waste of time and units.

Yes, but there are two conditions for Imperial Victory :

- Killing Horus

- Reaching the end of initiative track with emperor alive; I thought it was easy to keep emperor alive on catacombs, since there is only one card allowing traitor to come back on VS to kill emperor...

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formynder said:

Yes, but there are two conditions for Imperial Victory :

 

- Killing Horus

- Reaching the end of initiative track with emperor alive; I thought it was easy to keep emperor alive on catacombs, since there is only one card allowing traitor to come back on VS to kill emperor...

 

 

Imperials can also win via Spaceport Victory.

Haven't checked the Traitor Order deck, but does it even have Secret Routes? I've seen in the Imperial deck, but guess I haven't gone through the Traitor deck in detail.

Realistically, just taking Catacombs probably means Emp took Custodes and 2+ Space Marines with him. With Traitors having 2-3 Spaceports in their control right after set-up (2 on setup, corruption + bombardment usually flips a third, sometimes even the fourth), those units aren't really worth it to sit them in the Catacombs, babysitting Emp. If you do keep them there, I as Traitor would love it and take the spaceports with little trouble, having 4 Space Marine Legions against the Imperial's 2. Imperial Army and Tanks are traitor-fodder for Fulgrim, Magnus and Mortarion take care of the Space Marines and Titans. And you can only rebuild Tanks and Titans.

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Yeah, unless you intend to kill horus before you opponent gets initiative back I see no point in attacking the Vengeful Spirit. You want as many forces defending the Space Ports as possible. Keep in mind that the Emperor is still pretty hard to kill, sitting in the inner palace with three custodes and surrounded by two space marine legions.

Oh, and the traitor player does not have the secret passages order. Only the imperial player can draw that order.

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Three Headed Monkey said:

Oh, and the traitor player does not have the secret passages order. Only the imperial player can draw that order.

Thanx a lot for your answers !

I didn't check if traitor had the secret route order ...

If he has not, how can he goes back to Vengeful Spirit if area (catacombs) once it is occupied by Emperor (even if emperor is alone).

In other words : If I play Imperium :

1. I protect one spaceport (just one with many armies and space marines around just to prevent traitor to get the 4 spaceports.

2. I place a big attack with boarding order on VS's catacombs, destroying its occupants and forcing Horus to runaway from Command Center.
And traitor has no way to come back on VS cause it is considered as ennemy areas !

R U agree with it ? (The more I write on forums, the badder my english is !!!)

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formynder said:

1. I protect one spaceport (just one with many armies and space marines around just to prevent traitor to get the 4 spaceports.

This might be the hardest part, a lot harder than it sounds. Firstly, you can only sit 6 units at a Spaceport, while the Traitor could attack from all adjacent regions. Even if you have the Fabricator General at the Spaceport, Traitor should have Thunderhawks and/or Magnus to take care of the fortification, Mortarion to reduce your people in rank, making them much easier to kill (not to mention giving you less cards). Further, Traitor just needs to hold the Spaceport after the combat (assuming he has the other three in his control) and he wins, Imperials don't get a chance at retaking it.

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This came up today in the first game of Horus Heresy I've played. I wanted to use Boarding Action to send the Emperor, Sanginius and a bunch of Marines onto the Vengeful Spirit (which seemed a reasonable thing to do). There were several traitor units in the catacombs and Horus by himself on the command deck. What I wanted to do was board the ship and then play an "attack adjacent area" card (I think it was "Assault") to attack Horus. I ended up not doing it as it didn't seem fair that I could ignore the other enemy units but it did bring up a whole bunch of questions about how you can actually Horus aboard the Spirit.

Boarding Actions does have "MOVE" in nice bold letters which would seem to indicate it allows a regular move action which would be prevented by the presence of enemy units in the destination area. The result though is that Horus is untouchable as long as the traitor player keeps him on the command deck with at least least one Chaos unit in the catacombs.

Is there an FAQ answer somewhere? How are other people handling this? If you're allowing Imperial units to move onto the Vengeful Spirit what are you doing about Chaos units already in the catacombs (assuming the initiative isn't changing straight away)?

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We play it that Boarding Action can be played to move units into the catacombs, even if there are units there otherwise it would never be played and Horus would be invincible.

Also, the Imperial player ordering a combat to be fought from the catacombs would ignore the Traitor units there, as only traitor units in the target area become engaged. This is not unfair. You have to get a sizable force to the vengeful spirit and attack with them in one turn otherwise it would be too hard to kill Horus, as he could just leave if initiative gets back to him. It is supposed to be a suprise assault.

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Three Headed Monkey said:

We play it that Boarding Action can be played to move units into the catacombs, even if there are units there otherwise it would never be played and Horus would be invincible.

Also, the Imperial player ordering a combat to be fought from the catacombs would ignore the Traitor units there, as only traitor units in the target area become engaged. This is not unfair. You have to get a sizable force to the vengeful spirit and attack with them in one turn otherwise it would be too hard to kill Horus, as he could just leave if initiative gets back to him. It is supposed to be a suprise assault.

I agree with that.: Horus would be invicible !

So, Boarding Action should allow imperium to move in catacombs even if there are traitor units there.

Then, you resolve a COEXISTENCE BATTLE between units Imperium brought there and traitors.

Rules p.21 are not plain. It is said that "Secret Routes" & "Boarding Actions" are exceptions, but not regarding to ennemy areas.

How do you play that ?

And, to finish with 2 questions :

- What is the way for emperor to board Vengeful Spirit if there are traitor units there ?

- If Emperor takes the catacombs (with one ore more units), how can traitor player can come back to fight him if command center is under his control

-If Emperor occupies all the vengeful spirit (catacombs & command center), how can traitor player come back in those ennemies areas ?

thank you !

PS : Hope my english is not that bad :-)

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formynder said:

So, Boarding Action should allow imperium to move in catacombs even if there are traitor units there.

Then, you resolve a COEXISTENCE BATTLE between units Imperium brought there and traitors.

Most likely, there is no coexistance battle at this point. CE battle only happens when you have a Change of Initiative, which, if the Imperial player has any brains, won't happen after his Boarding Action (his initiative marker will be tied or still closer to the start after paying for BA).

formynder said:

- What is the way for emperor to board Vengeful Spirit if there are traitor units there ?

If you take BA to be an exception, then through BA.

If you take BA to follow the rules for normal movement, only if the Traitor clears Catacombs (so essentially, never).

formynder said:

- If Emperor takes the catacombs (with one ore more units), how can traitor player can come back to fight him if command center is under his control

Traitor can use Port Landing in the VS region to move units from a spaceport to either area of the VS. PL only activates the spaceport in question, so those units are free to act (probably attack) if the Traitor has initiative.

I suppose another question is, do you treat Port Landing as an exception like BA in terms of moving units to an enemy/contested area, if moving to the VS?

formynder said:

-If Emperor occupies all the vengeful spirit (catacombs & command center), how can traitor player come back in those ennemies areas ?

See above.

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Three Headed Monkey said:

We play it that Boarding Action can be played to move units into the catacombs, even if there are units there otherwise it would never be played and Horus would be invincible.

Also, the Imperial player ordering a combat to be fought from the catacombs would ignore the Traitor units there, as only traitor units in the target area become engaged. This is not unfair. You have to get a sizable force to the vengeful spirit and attack with them in one turn otherwise it would be too hard to kill Horus, as he could just leave if initiative gets back to him. It is supposed to be a suprise assault.

Without an FAQ it's still unclear if enemy units in origin area are engaged or not.

Just fighting three units in the Command Centre is too easy anyway.

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 Thank you so much

1. For having read my message in an approximative english

2. For your very accurate response.

I think I will considere port landing and boarding action ordres as exceptions, allowing to move to the vengeful spirit even if occupied by ennemy. Otherwise it would be easy for traitor to keep Horus alive by letting just one unit in catacombs, and easy for Emperor to win, taking the catacombs and staying here, waiting for the end of the game.

Thanks a lot again !

 

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