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player3351457

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21 minutes ago, player3351457 said:

If you search the top 5 cards of the encounter deck with The Hidden Way and find no location, does the card whiff entirely? Or do you still resolve the "then" effect?

You do not resolve the 2nd sentence because of the semantics of then:

If the effect text of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved (or be true) in full before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved

[RR Thenhttp://www.lotr-lcg-quest-companion.gamersdungeon.net/#Rule603]

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This "then" is new to me. It seems, that I are playing house rules here. :)

Especially, because the "then" starts with a new sentence. For me it sounds like "do first, do a second thing, afterwards".

I am used to a different wording from other games: "do X to Y", where Y is a positive thing and X some sort of cost. That would be much more clearer - at least for me.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Flrbb said:

This "then" is new to me. It seems, that I are playing house rules here. :)

Especially, because the "then" starts with a new sentence. For me it sounds like "do first, do a second thing, afterwards".

I am used to a different wording from other games: "do X to Y", where Y is a positive thing and X some sort of cost. That would be much more clearer - at least for me.

What you describe is how then works in, say, Android: Netrunner.

But the RR way listed above is actually how it's always worked in LotR, or at least it dates back a long time: FAQ v1.1 from 2011 has the first "published" clarification (item 1.15).

Edited by sappidus

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I would say you actually don't shuffle your deck. You didn't fulfill the first part to completion (you still search you deck whether he's included in it or not, but of course you can't put him into play, so the "then" does not take effect.

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23 hours ago, rees263 said:

That would be true, except the rule is you always shuffle after you have searched your deck. See the FAQ 1.21. In this case, the "Then" clause on Fili and Kili is redundant.

That would be amazing... intentionally not include fili in your deck so that playing kili is a full deck scry 😅

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On 5/29/2019 at 6:11 PM, rees263 said:

That would be true, except the rule is you always shuffle after you have searched your deck. See the FAQ 1.21. In this case, the "Then" clause on Fili and Kili is redundant.

Not quite, the actual rule is:

Quote

 

(1.21) Search Effects

Whenever a player searches through a deck, that player shuffles the deck after searching it unless a card effect says otherwise. Players do not shuffle or change the order of a discard pile after searching it.

(1.15) The word “then

If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve

The ruling on "then" states only to shuffle, when the other dwarf has been brought into play. Thus i would interpret this as do not shuffle without the second dwarf.

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I mean, it brings up a good point. Many cards just have the tagged on "Shuffle your deck." At the end of a card text (without the word "then"). The inclusion of "then" is a bit particular but I don't think the intention was to omit shuffling if you couldn't find the dwarf. I think it I'd just another case of inconsistent language used over the years.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Amicus Draconis said:

The ruling on "then" states only to shuffle, when the other dwarf has been brought into play. Thus i would interpret this as do not shuffle without the second dwarf.

You are correct, I paraphrased. However, for these cards it is not logical to interpret that you shouldn't shuffle. The absence of an instruction to act does not equate to prohibiting the action. "Unless a card effect says otherwise" would require an explicit instruction that you don't shuffle or to do something else instead. 

In Fili and Kili's case, you don't have to follow the "then" clause, but you should still follow the FAQ rule to shuffle because there is no contradictory card text.

Ally Galadriel is an example of such an exception because after searching the top 5 cards you are instructed to put them back in any order. 

I don't know of any card that would currently let you search the whole deck without shuffling and quite possibly there will never be one.

Edited by rees263

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8 hours ago, rees263 said:

You are correct, I paraphrased. However, for these cards it is not logical to interpret that you shouldn't shuffle. The absence of an instruction to act does not equate to prohibiting the action. "Unless a card effect says otherwise" would require an explicit instruction that you don't shuffle or to do something else instead. 

In Fili and Kili's case, you don't have to follow the "then" clause, but you should still follow the FAQ rule to shuffle because there is no contradictory card text.

Ally Galadriel is an example of such an exception because after searching the top 5 cards you are instructed to put them back in any order. 

I don't know of any card that would currently let you search the whole deck without shuffling and quite possibly there will never be one.

It would be logical to shuffle after such an effect takes place and it probably is just an inconsistent use of game terms as @player3351457 points out. Someone once said to me, when in doubt always take the harder option and thus I probably would shuffle anyway. Nevertheless, as the rules stand now, I see it as legal play not to shuffle.

There are not many player cards that allow a (partial) search without specifically asking for a shuffle: Bilbo and The Red Arrow. But in both cases, the FAQ would kick in and require shuffling. Mustering the Rohirrim on the other hand also uses "then" like Kili and Fili.

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