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Those with the new kits - did FFG screw us over again?

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33 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Well, on the bright side, this ******* will end over these last 2 factions converted. Now on to clone wars, where people will bizarrely be upset about the lack of kits!

Bless your soul!

12 hours ago, Ebak said:

content he already owns and doesn’t feel he should need to invest to update.

This is the crux of the discussion. I disagree. The alternative was not that all 1.0 could be still used. The alternative was to buy everything at $20 a piece for small ships.
The content I owned was 1.0. If I want to be able to re-use stuff for a new game - 2.0 - then I will of course have to reinvest. But I got a better deal out of it by going with conversion kits.

Those two viewpoints are irreconcilable. Either you choose to be happy with FFG on that*, or you choose to be angry. The choice is up to everyone of us.

*there are many other reasons to bash FFG, but the conversion kit is IMO not one of them.

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26 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

FFG will never win. I find life is easier when you only complain about things that matter like politics and whether or not Pineapple belongs on pizza (it doesn't!)

Your profile says that you're from the US. Which means that you are probably aware of the glory of a proper Hawaiian pizza and shun it!

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30 minutes ago, Okapi said:

I'm sure someone will complain about FFG not releasing a kit that lets them use their seven ARC in their Republic Epic list. :P

Before 2nd edition's announcement, I painted my ARC in republic colors. And when the republic was announced, I converted my Rebel faction in part to make use of an extra ARC dial. FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!

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3 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Before 2nd edition's announcement, I painted my ARC in republic colors. And when the republic was announced, I converted my Rebel faction in part to make use of an extra ARC dial. FOR THE REPUBLIC!!!!

You'll at least get an extra chit, and hopefully it's have the same dial (without the mysteriously mobile blues on the YT-1300 dial), so you might be able to run two of them. In my case one will be from the future, but it'll do in a pinch.

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12 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Your profile says that you're from the US. Which means that you are probably aware of the glory of a proper Hawaiian pizza and shun it!

I worked at a pizza place for 12 years. I indeed shun it. But im a simple girl who enjoys pepperoni (and occasionally sausage). Also I dont try new things. But I do try new ships in Xwing, which funnily enough due to the Conversion Kits I have gone out and picked up ships I never considered before like the sheathipede, the Wookie Gunship, the Kimoglorinaianaia, and the TIE agressor. 

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49 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

*there are many other reasons to bash FFG, but the conversion kit is IMO not one of them.

Conversion Kits, in theory, were absolutely the right way to go for FFG, and if you look back several months, you will see me cheerleading FFG on them.

In practice, however, FFG built the conversion kits such that it is nearly impossible for long-time players to convert their whole collections without buying and wasting 75% of the contents of any additional CKs.  FFG built the contents of the CKs, IMO deliberately, to be nearly impossible to trade.  The CKs would have been perfect, for pretty much every player, if (for example) someone who only has two TIE Bombers, but who has four TIE Aggressors, could have actually traded a full TIE Bomber conversion for a full TIE Aggressor conversion.

But FFG made decisions to make that impossible.  They made that decision in the interests of forcing the sale of more CKs, and I understand that's one of the ways capitalism works.  But in making that decision, they've also lost a great deal of good will from many of their biggest customers (Darth Meanie has 500 ships!  I have 200 ships!), and they've also taught many lifestyle X-Wing players to be much, much more cautious when purchasing 2E ... and that is also how capitalism works.

(In other words, if they had made better decisions about the contents of the CKs, I believe they would have sold more, not fewer.  Just using me for an example, if I knew that I could trade with other players, I would have purchased eight or nine CKs and be happily trading with players, both new and old, instead of the paltry four CKs I've bought for my big collection (with 75% of the extra Galactic Empire one sitting all but useless.)

I think FFG very clearly made the wrong decision, and I obviously think criticizing them for the CKs is absolutely valid.  The CKs' contents -- not their existence, their contents -- is, at this point, the biggest misstep of 2E.  (Although the unbelievably convoluted changes to Organized Play are definitely climbing right up there.)

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

My brother likes to fly 8 B-Wings in Epic.  He needs 4 Rebel Conversion Kits at $600 to play his favorite chassis they way he wants.

So, IRONIC DEEP BELLY LOL

 

I found your problem you are paying 3x the retail price for kits.

4 kits is still high I agree that sucks, unfortunately ffg cannot cater to every situation, you happen to be an outlyer and that does suck. But if they had made a system that worked for you almost everyone else would have to pay alot more. Sometimes it's expensive to be eccentric.

Grossly exaggerating your position however does no breed alot of sympathy.

Edited by Icelom

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3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Conversion Kits, in theory, were absolutely the right way to go for FFG, and if you look back several months, you will see me cheerleading FFG on them.

In practice, however, FFG built the conversion kits such that it is nearly impossible for long-time players to convert their whole collections without buying and wasting 75% of the contents of any additional CKs.  FFG built the contents of the CKs, IMO deliberately, to be nearly impossible to trade.  The CKs would have been perfect, for pretty much every player, if (for example) someone who only has two TIE Bombers, but who has four TIE Aggressors, could have actually traded a full TIE Bomber conversion for a full TIE Aggressor conversion.

But FFG made decisions to make that impossible.  They made that decision in the interests of forcing the sale of more CKs, and I understand that's one of the ways capitalism works.  But in making that decision, they've also lost a great deal of good will from many of their biggest customers (Darth Meanie has 500 ships!  I have 200 ships!), and they've also taught many lifestyle X-Wing players to be much, much more cautious when purchasing 2E ... and that is also how capitalism works.

(In other words, if they had made better decisions about the contents of the CKs, I believe they would have sold more, not fewer.  Just using me for an example, if I knew that I could trade with other players, I would have purchased eight or nine CKs and be happily trading with players, both new and old, instead of the paltry four CKs I've bought for my big collection (with 75% of the extra Galactic Empire one sitting all but useless.)

I think FFG very clearly made the wrong decision, and I obviously think criticizing them for the CKs is absolutely valid.  The CKs' contents -- not their existence, their contents -- is, at this point, the biggest misstep of 2E.  (Although the unbelievably convoluted changes to Organized Play are definitely climbing right up there.)

How is it impossible to trade? Ive traded all kinds of mine with people. 

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I was unhappy with a few of the decisions from the original faction conversion kits.  Mainly that they only included 2 of each A-Wing generic and 2 of each TIE Interceptor generic when they gave us 3 dials for each of them, but they way they treated Black Ace in the Resistance conversion kit is almost laughable.  If they had put Black Ace on the flip side of Lt. Bastian and Jaycris Tubbs, they would have gotten 3 Black Ace generics in the conversion kit for the cost of 2 cards.  Instead they give people 1 so you either need to buy even more T-70s, when most people already have 3 or 4 (Core Set, Expansion, and HOTR), or buy additional conversion kits for the 1 pilot you are looking for.

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10 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Conversion Kits, in theory, were absolutely the right way to go for FFG, and if you look back several months, you will see me cheerleading FFG on them.

In practice, however, FFG built the conversion kits such that it is nearly impossible for long-time players to convert their whole collections without buying and wasting 75% of the contents of any additional CKs.  FFG built the contents of the CKs, IMO deliberately, to be nearly impossible to trade.  The CKs would have been perfect, for pretty much every player, if (for example) someone who only has two TIE Bombers, but who has four TIE Aggressors, could have actually traded a full TIE Bomber conversion for a full TIE Aggressor conversion.

But FFG made decisions to make that impossible.  They made that decision in the interests of forcing the sale of more CKs, and I understand that's one of the ways capitalism works.  But in making that decision, they've also lost a great deal of good will from many of their biggest customers (Darth Meanie has 500 ships!  I have 200 ships!), and they've also taught many lifestyle X-Wing players to be much, much more cautious when purchasing 2E ... and that is also how capitalism works.

(In other words, if they had made better decisions about the contents of the CKs, I believe they would have sold more, not fewer.  Just using me for an example, if I knew that I could trade with other players, I would have purchased eight or nine CKs and be happily trading with players, both new and old, instead of the paltry four CKs I've bought for my big collection (with 75% of the extra Galactic Empire one sitting all but useless.)

I think FFG very clearly made the wrong decision, and I obviously think criticizing them for the CKs is absolutely valid.  The CKs' contents -- not their existence, their contents -- is, at this point, the biggest misstep of 2E.  (Although the unbelievably convoluted changes to Organized Play are definitely climbing right up there.)

I have traded out large amounts from my conversions and filled all my gaps (generics were my gaps)... More then half of my extras (not sure how much exactly) was either traded or sold.

"Nearly impossible" to trade is straight up bull.

I even traded away things like my extra yv-666 content 

 

Edited by Icelom

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29 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

How is it impossible to trade? Ive traded all kinds of mine with people. 

It really isn't, and @Jeff Wilder does in fact trade for missing dials. I've got a few he wants, and am pondering sending them his way. Sadly, as normal, there's a lot of overlap making it so a lot of what I need, he doesn't have. It's a common theme, actually.

Locally, I picked up a second Imperial kit and split the contents with others. I took what I wanted and parted out other high demand dials/cards/chits for a couple of bucks to help finance it.  I'm now sitting on a stack of Aggressors and Strikers that will likely never find a home. Still, it finished off my Imperial needs and helped others finish theirs.

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Just now, LagJanson said:

It really isn't, and @Jeff Wilder does in fact trade for missing dials. I've got a few he wants, and am pondering sending them his way. Sadly, as normal, there's a lot of overlap making it so a lot of what I need, he doesn't have. It's a common theme, actually.

Locally, I picked up a second Imperial kit and split the contents with others. I took what I wanted and parted out other high demand dials/cards/chits for a couple of bucks to help finance it.  I'm now sitting on a stack of Aggressors and Strikers that will likely never find a home. Still, it finished off my Imperial needs and helped others finish theirs.

The only odd choices I found were things like 3 inquisitor TIE and only 2 advanced, or 2 Phantom II and 2 Sabine's TIE. Im sure that was a little on purpose. But for the price and the AMOUNT of stuff I got I was quite pleased. Only have bought one of each kit  I have a ton of left over cards I regularly give to new players and people who only needed 1 or 2 kits. Its not perfect but it works just fine and it could have been way way worse (just look at how GW used to do switch overs!)

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Honestly I'm delighted by the conversion kits, the amount of stuff I've been using that actually works unlike by the end of first edition is great.

 

The look of everything is also just so much leaner and easier to use it's great, I'm super excited for wave 3 but I'm having s blast with what's I the kits so far.

 

Each to their own but no complaints here

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46 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

I worked at a pizza place for 12 years. I indeed shun it. But im a simple girl who enjoys pepperoni (and occasionally sausage). Also I dont try new things. But I do try new ships in Xwing, which funnily enough due to the Conversion Kits I have gone out and picked up ships I never considered before like the sheathipede, the Wookie Gunship, the Kimoglorinaianaia, and the TIE agressor. 

TIE agressor is decent enough if you fly Kestal with some Palp support, but that is mainly only for the ability (basically Saturation Salvo on something not allowed to take it) and the two rocket slots. Double Edge is hillariously inefficient, but I guess that's a good thing that turrets aren't oppressive rotatable cannons. And sorry for triggering your Pizza Traumatic Stress Disorder!

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1 hour ago, Nyxen said:

Math is each convo kit converts 2 ships a faction with an average of 15 shipsish per. I get that that's not a swarm of most things, but...

Also @Darth Meanie, I feel like this is the core of why people are upset about them. FFG made the convo kits with 100 (200)pts in mind, and people with collections like yours feel left out. That's 100% legit, but to say the convo kit is a bad value is not accurate.

I'm using "value" subjectively.

Objectively, the kit costs $50, no matter who you are.

Subjectively, you might be getting near a 100% conversion rate, so then the kit is highly valuable to you.

Subjectively, for me, the first $50 does not even allow me to play the game the way I used to.  If I only buy 1 kit, it actually has zero value to me, because I still can't play Epic.  If I spend $50 only, I may as well not even buy anything.

If there is a word other than "value" that expresses what I want to say better, someone please let me know.

46 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I found your problem you are paying 3x the retail price for kits.

4 kits is still high I agree that sucks, unfortunately ffg cannot cater to every situation, you happen to be an outlyer and that does suck. But if they had made a system that worked for you almost everyone else would have to pay alot more. Sometimes it's expensive to be eccentric.

Grossly exaggerating your position however does no breed alot of sympathy.

And I found your problem.

You think that because you have found a subjective satisfaction about the value of ConKits you think it must now be an objective truth for everyone else.

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2 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

TIE agressor is decent enough if you fly Kestal with some Palp support, but that is mainly only for the ability (basically Saturation Salvo on something not allowed to take it) and the two rocket slots. Double Edge is hillariously inefficient, but I guess that's a good thing that turrets aren't oppressive rotatable cannons. And sorry for triggering your Pizza Traumatic Stress Disorder!

No worries....working there was a pleasant experience that was part of a greater arc non-accomplishment/self realization. I still eat plenty of pizza today when my body allows it =P ! I really really hope they release some new turrets soon so things like aggressors can have a lot more fun on the table, Dorsal turrets just aren't cutting it and Ion is only occasionally reasonable.

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4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I'm using "value" subjectively.

Objectively, the kit costs $50, no matter who you are.

Subjectively, you might be getting near a 100% conversion rate, so then the kit is highly valuable to you.

Subjectively, for me, the first $50 does not even allow me to play the game the way I used to.  If I only buy 1 kit, it actually has zero value to me, because I still can't play Epic.  If I spend $50 only, I may as well not even buy anything.

If there is a word other than "value" that expresses what I want to say better, someone please let me know.

And I found your problem.

You think that because you have found a subjective satisfaction about the value of ConKits you think it must now be an objective truth for everyone else.

Don't be getting all bent out of shape because you are playing the game in a fashion that was not intended by the manufacturer. Its like getting made at my couch company for not putting a mini fridge in my couch. I really want one for the LOTR marathon but frankly its going to cost me if I ever wanted to actually do that. The company has to make a product that will appeal to the greatest amount of customers, not a group that constitutes less than 1% of its market. 

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3 hours ago, generalchaos34 said:

So play 1.0 and dont play 2.0?

That seems to be your only solution beyond them just giving you what you want for free.

Actually, I did present my solution:

4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

So odds are my XWM world looks like this:  2.0 for CiS and Republic, maybe 2.0 for FO and Resistance, 1.0 forever for Empire and Rebels, and an old/new split of S&V.

But people are way too happy to call you unreasonable for not being a die-hard flag-waving 2.0 converter.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I think FFG very clearly made the wrong decision, and I obviously think criticizing them for the CKs is absolutely valid.  The CKs' contents -- not their existence, their contents -- is, at this point, the biggest misstep of 2E.  (Although the unbelievably convoluted changes to Organized Play are definitely climbing right up there.)

Well, my one final point would be this:

FFG made sure this game was not backwards compatible.  Probably quite intentionally.

They changed Pilot Skill to a new scale of Initiative, doubled the points, added some pilots, deleted others, et. al., and thus completely made the ConKits a mandatory gateway to 2.0.

Something as simple as leaving PS 1 to 9 would have allowed a lot of casual people to "soft convert," using old content with new for the next couple of years without a heavy front-loaded conversion cost.

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34 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

The only odd choices I found were things like 3 inquisitor TIE and only 2 advanced, or 2 Phantom II and 2 Sabine's TIE. Im sure that was a little on purpose. But for the price and the AMOUNT of stuff I got I was quite pleased. Only have bought one of each kit  I have a ton of left over cards I regularly give to new players and people who only needed 1 or 2 kits. Its not perfect but it works just fine and it could have been way way worse (just look at how GW used to do switch overs!)

But, if I had two Sabine TIE's and wanted to use them both the kit would be useless to me with only 1 dial! Blasphemy!

Yeah... There were some less than optimal choices. I'm one of those that isn't too concerned, really. I've got a couple of X-Wings without modern dials, but I have four 2.0 dials and that's enough for now. I don't typically play epic with only fighters, so fielding more than 4 X-Wings isn't a thing I did before either. To me, personally, the value of the kit was pretty good for what it offered. I don't blindly recommend kits to people though, because I know the value/cost ratio to each individual is different.

Edited by LagJanson

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Personally speaking, I picked up one of each conversion kit at launch, a copy and f the new core set (with a free damage deck as well), and I've got more content than I'll ever need when it comes to playing a game of X-Wing with my first edition collection, be it 200 point standard or 400 point Epic (fielding both sides, natch).

So kudos to FFG.  There's plenty of other game companies I know who's force you to shell out MUCH more in order to reuse your existing models.  Or simply try to make you to buy new ones.

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2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Actually, I did present my solution:

But people are way too happy to call you unreasonable for not being a die-hard flag-waving 2.0 converter.

Well, my one final point would be this:

FFG made sure this game was not backwards compatible.  Probably quite intentionally.

They changed Pilot Skill to a new scale of Initiative, doubled the points, added some pilots, deleted others, et. al., and thus completely made the ConKits a mandatory gateway to 2.0.

Something as simple as leaving PS 1 to 9 would have allowed a lot of casual people to "soft convert," using old content with new for the next couple of years without a heavy front-loaded conversion cost.

The half in half out approach of editions is what slowly killed both Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. People had armies 1-3 editions behind and they either did not work mechanically or they were simply awful. A clean slate is not only a new industry standard but from a game design standpoint it allows them to make a cohesive change from previous mistakes that were in made in the design process (looking at you TLT). Both 40k and AoS are doing better than they ever have in their histories and the GW company is actually one of the fastest growing companies IN ENGLAND right now. Thats what a clean slate in game design can give you. Soft converting means nothing because those people would have simply not bought the new content in the first place. And you would have had piles of legacy rules issues, or telling people to ignore 50% of a card. Its bad design thats a relic of a bygone era

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11 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

The half in half out approach of editions is what slowly killed both Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy. People had armies 1-3 editions behind and they either did not work mechanically or they were simply awful. A clean slate is not only a new industry standard but from a game design standpoint it allows them to make a cohesive change from previous mistakes that were in made in the design process (looking at you TLT). Both 40k and AoS are doing better than they ever have in their histories and the GW company is actually one of the fastest growing companies IN ENGLAND right now. Thats what a clean slate in game design can give you. Soft converting means nothing because those people would have simply not bought the new content in the first place. And you would have had piles of legacy rules issues, or telling people to ignore 50% of a card. Its bad design thats a relic of a bygone era

Well, I have none of that experience to fall back on, so I'll take your word on it.

31 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Don't be getting all bent out of shape because you are playing the game in a fashion that was not intended by the manufacturer.

BTW, Epic was a play mode intended by the manufacturer.

The conkits are shite for Epic players.  So, some of the ill will does come from the fact that 2.0 has been a colossal "screw you, we need to fix standard" to the player base that spent money to buy the biggest ships for actual play, and multiples of the little ones.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The conkits are shite for Epic players.  So, some of the ill will does come from the fact that 2.0 has been a colossal "screw you, we need to fix standard" to the player base that spent money to buy the biggest ships for actual play, and multiples of the little ones.

Not... necessarily true. They aren't the best if you want to fly all of the same ship in an epic game, mind you. They do provide a LOT of faction appropriate fighters and transports for an epic game though, minus the cruisers themselves - which, even you must agree need a bit more rework than most of the individual fighters included in the kits.

I'm willing to give FFG some time to go back and fix things. I think it'll take longer than I want, admittedly, but I'd like to see them as more than something I need to pre-balance before a mission just to get things thematically appropriate. They should carry their own weight in a list without being obnoxious.

Again though - the kits are NOT worth it for the games you in particular play. Your personal scenario however is more the exception than the norm. I don't mean that you only play at home either, I mean you only play at home with MASSIVE NUMBERS. I'm willing to bet most people who only play at home a) do not visit this terrible place and, b) do not own the quantities that you yourself have. For people in your scenario, absolutely there is very little value in a full upgrade.

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I can vouch for the half in half out being bad. I spent decades playing w40k and having to deal with it. Along with some armies always getting left behind and in the case of squats, written out altogether. It caused nothing but strife among players.The fresh start made a boom for the company and caused an influx in funds that allowed them to improve the overall game through investment.

They too had an "epic" that had gotten overlooked a lot. There it was also a niche game that was only played in rare big games. Being one of the old timers who had bought an armorcast titan and was unable to play it in games, I found ways to use it any way. If nothing else, than as a centerpiece with scaffolds around it as terrain. When they came out with new updated rules and such, I then played epic like once or twice. And I did not care because games I got to play every day were more important than one I got to play once every few years (and halfway though I would remember why we didnt play them every day as it was almost a chore with a sore back, strained eyes, headache....).

MY view and I know not everyone has my view, is that getting the main game right and building up the revenue to correctly update a larger scale game is more important than "half assing" both and ending up pleasing no one. Getting the main game right and updated across the board is more important than updating an epic scale. That can be done then. ALTHOUGH.....this does not mean a couple guys cant be given that as a side project so that it is not totally on the back burner.

A side note.... might it be possible that they DO have some guys working on it now and it just not being publisized until they are close to completion? Could they be working on it with the addition of clone wars ships in mind and want to do it after they have it completed with the clone wars stuff with it? Possibly with a different set of additional rules built off of the main ones..... and it being done behind the scenes?

 

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1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

It really isn't, and @Jeff Wilder does in fact trade for missing dials.

(1) No, I don't.  I have no interest in dials alone.  Nor do most (all?) players.  That's the point.  Dials without ship-tokens and (to a lesser extent) pilot cards are verging on useless.  That's why using "conversions (by dial count)" was dishonest and misleading.

(2) I'm desperately trying to trade away the extra Imperial CK stuff I have to get missing Rebel and Scum stuff, but -- because of how FFG did CKs -- it is extremely difficult.  So far, I've managed two trades, and have another one in the works.  If it weren't for the good trading relationship I've developed with a player in Japan, I would barely have a single trade thus far.  Because of the way FFG did CKs.

Back in the beginning, when people actually thought "conversions" meant (gasp) actually being able to convert, there were 12+ people signed up in my local meta for mass trading.  Because of the way FFG did CKs, that simply died.

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