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kevetoile

Biometrix Backup (Mars), wording issue

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Biomatrix Backup

This creature gains, “Destroyed: You may put this creature into its owner's archives.”

 

 

There is a problem arround the "MAY" word.

If the creature is destroyed during my turn, I will probably always put the creature into my archives, but on the opponent's turn, he makes the choices, he decides where to put the creature, and he has no interest on chooosing my Archives ever.
I asked myself why, and then I found an answer from Richard Garfield himself on BGG (source : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2050059/active-player-and-destroyed-abilities Direct link https://boardgamegeek.com/article/29886746#29886746)

Question is : Will there be an official erratum about this card from FFG ?

 

Edited by kevetoile

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No, because it is already mentioned in the official rules document.

I did read something a few moments ago on Reddit, where the poster poses that it is up to us as players to play the card as intended (and you choose to put it in your opponent's archives), or you at least make sure they understand how the card works when you are looking at their decklist before the game starts. It all falls down to how competitive or casual you or your playgroup are.

At the kitchen table, I will let my friends have it in their archive. At a tournament, I will make sure they understand how it works. It only takes a moment of my time to avoid any feelbads during the game.

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I always discards it, competitive or casual.  And I always expect mine to be discarded.  Unless my opponent has used Sample Collection, then I will archive it as a hostage to get my creatures released.  That it does not always go to the archive does not make it a bad or useless card.   I look at it like giving the creature skirmish.  It give you full freedom to attack with it with very little negative impact, but be careful not to let it be attacked, or you will lose it.  

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12 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I always discards it, competitive or casual.  And I always expect mine to be discarded.  Unless my opponent has used Sample Collection, then I will archive it as a hostage to get my creatures released.  That it does not always go to the archive does not make it a bad or useless card.   I look at it like giving the creature skirmish.  It give you full freedom to attack with it with very little negative impact, but be careful not to let it be attacked, or you will lose it.  

There are potentially reasons for ones opponent to archive the creature. Some cards play off your opponent’s archive, or perhaps it’s a creature from a faction that your opponent has no interest (or ability because of various cards) to play, in which case picking up the archives is simply clogging their hand and preventing card draw.

Also, some cards allow archiving a creature into the other players archive, only returning them when the archive is picked up; by playing bio matrix backup on their creature you might force them to return your creatures to get theirs. 

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9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Also, some cards allow archiving a creature into the other players archive, only returning them when the archive is picked up; by playing bio matrix backup on their creature you might force them to return your creatures to get theirs. 

Yeah, Sample Collection.  Which is why I said I will archive my opponent's creature back to them as a hostage. :)

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You could want to archive it if you think they've built up a good archive of other house creatures and the creature isn't too good. It could clog their hand when taking their archive back into their hand for the following draw.

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Hi

When I got my first deck Biomatrix Backup was in it, I was like cool card but after my opponent realized that they choose on there turn it always dies, #Doesnotfeelgood I think the ''May'' is a mistake it should always archive for better or worse.

Think of it this way, Vorthos logic storytime: Archon Weeglix Obsidian Fragility goes to his Martian allies to see the new invention they want to reveal, a Biomatrix Backup. They have 2 versions, the original prototype that works sometimes and a finished product that works all the time, which would they choose? But I suppose also maybe some Brobnar bruiser bashes the Biomatrix Backup...LOL

 That is how I see the ''May'' trigger, a trigger on a device that should always archive and when it doesn't it feels like it broke.

cheers

Edited by player3686594

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Player3686594: Read the links above. Richard Garfield states on BGG that it is a mistake and there should not be a "May" on the card. Me and my wife, at home, we play it the way it was meant to be played. However, in a tournament setting, you'll have to go with how FGG ruled it.

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There has been several threads about this.  Its a horrible choice but it is what it is.

You is the card owner.  Making it seem like it should be the owner that chooses.  It was intended for the owner to choose.  Therefore, the ffg obviously choose to rule it the other way.

 

At my game store everyone seems to just archive the card. Because everyone seems to agree that it should work that way.

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18 hours ago, Dalek5 said:

There has been several threads about this.  Its a horrible choice but it is what it is.

You is the card owner.  Making it seem like it should be the owner that chooses.  It was intended for the owner to choose.  Therefore, the ffg obviously choose to rule it the other way.

At my game store everyone seems to just archive the card. Because everyone seems to agree that it should work that way.

So to clarify even further, it was not intended to be optional at all for either player. According to Richard Garfield 'You may...' being on the card is a typo and should never have been there at all. The card was meant to give the creature a Destroyed effect not an option. The card as intended by design is to be that if the creature is destroyed it goes to the archives, not that it may be put in archives or discard.

With the results of the ruling I feel that the intention of the card was lost a bit. But that's the rules so we must play by them until there is a change or errata.

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On 12/14/2018 at 6:40 PM, player3686594 said:

Hi

When I got my first deck Biomatrix Backup was in it, I was like cool card but after my opponent realized that they choose on there turn it always dies, #Doesnotfeelgood I think the ''May'' is a mistake it should always archive for better or worse.

Think of it this way, Vorthos logic storytime: Archon Weeglix Obsidian Fragility goes to his Martian allies to see the new invention they want to reveal, a Biomatrix Backup. They have 2 versions, the original prototype that works sometimes and a finished product that works all the time, which would they choose? But I suppose also maybe some Brobnar bruiser bashes the Biomatrix Backup...LOL

 That is how I see the ''May'' trigger, a trigger on a device that should always archive and when it doesn't it feels like it broke.

cheers

I happen to like the "May" also the fact the card is worth an Amber as well there should be a little bit of a down side other wise it just feels to good

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On 12/13/2018 at 7:13 AM, KandyKidZero said:



At the kitchen table, I will let my friends have it in their archive. At a tournament, I will make sure they understand how it works. It only takes a moment of my time to avoid any feelbads during the game.

Exactly how I am playing it. If others don't want to keep that agreement, then it's OK but this is how I feel it should be. 

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On 12/13/2018 at 10:13 AM, KandyKidZero said:

No, because it is already mentioned in the official rules document.

I did read something a few moments ago on Reddit, where the poster poses that it is up to us as players to play the card as intended (and you choose to put it in your opponent's archives), or you at least make sure they understand how the card works when you are looking at their decklist before the game starts. It all falls down to how competitive or casual you or your playgroup are.

At the kitchen table, I will let my friends have it in their archive. At a tournament, I will make sure they understand how it works. It only takes a moment of my time to avoid any feelbads during the game.

Yeah, that might've been my Reddit post you're referring to: https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyforgeGame/comments/a2vi13/psa_we_decide_how_biomatrix_backup_operates_not/

I was kind of in a "high and mighty" (self-righteous) mood when I made the post -- it was after I had a feelsbad moment at a tournament -- and I regret it a bit. The post was super controversial, with a lot of good points on both sides. My end conclusion was tempered a bit after conversing with players of opposing views, and I think I found some solid middle ground. Here are some key takeaways:

  • The active player makes the choice on what happens to the Biomatrix Backup creature. If you're the active player, it's completely within your right -- without breaking the rules -- to make the choice to place the Biomatrix Backup creature in your opponent's archive.
  • Invoking the ruling in this aforementioned way is probably best suited for non-competitive play. If you do this, however, please make sure the people you're playing against know *exactly* what is happening (i.e. that you are making a choice and why you get to make that choice). Otherwise, that opponent may not understand how the game works -- "active player makes all choices" is a fundamental game principle -- so that they're not surprised/mistaken if they play with someone else (or at a tournament).
  • In competitive play, you have to expect that your opponent will play optimally (i.e. place your creature in the discard pile) and they will expect you do the same. If you choose to not play optimally in a competitive situation, you may create some yucky awkwardness in the match and may even cheat your opponent of the competitive experience they're trying to achieve.
  • To avoid feelsbad moments -- competitively and non-competitively -- the best option might be to tell your opponent about the ruling before the match starts, likely if you notice they're using Mars. Worst case, notify them when they're going to play the card so that you don't blindside them. Ultimately, it's the blindsiding that creates the feelsbad moments.

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I played a sealed tournament locally yesterday.   All nine of my opponents send my backed up card to my archives.  They all thought it was stupid that the active player chose.

I get the idea that if you do not allow it to be backed up you will not be welcome back.  Its kind of become rude to take advantage of this typo.  At least in my area.

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9 minutes ago, Dalek5 said:

I played a sealed tournament locally yesterday.   All nine of my opponents send my backed up card to my archives.  They all thought it was stupid that the active player chose.

I get the idea that if you do not allow it to be backed up you will not be welcome back.  Its kind of become rude to take advantage of this typo.  At least in my area.

Depends. In a local now stakes tournament, it's a safe bet to be nice. At regionals? A Store Championship? World's? It's not going to be archived

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I wonder if they will fix the card in future expansions. As it was intended, this was one of the few cards that made me want to play Mars. It's next to useless as ruled.

Really want to like Mars but they are by far the worst house in my experience.

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8 minutes ago, TechnoGolem said:

I wonder if they will fix the card in future expansions. As it was intended, this was one of the few cards that made me want to play Mars. It's next to useless as ruled.

Really want to like Mars but they are by far the worst house in my experience.

I have gotten on some Mars runs that were amazing, but I will admit I think they are difficult to setup. Individually the Mars creatures do neat things and then the synergy they have among themselves makes it all the more potent, making them clear targets very often. That's the problem; They need to stay on the board to the next turn to really do what they do and most players have the foresight to not let that happen.

I'm still hopeful for an errata on Biomatrix Backup. Until then I'll say it has been kind of fun trying to utilize it in a useful way under the current ruling. 

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On 12/19/2018 at 4:23 AM, TechnoGolem said:

Really want to like Mars but they are by far the worst house in my experience. 

I have some very powerful Mars decks that allow the activation of almost my entire board relatively frequently while slamming down huge taunts to protect that state from creature interaction. I also have one deck where the synergy between the Mars and Logos parts is something else - LA, play a bunch of Logos creatures, Phase Shift -> Total Recall, do it all again, deck also has Dr. Escotera. I also have strong decks without Mars, but of my strong decks those with Mars are my favourites.

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