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Cloaker

In your opinion; Which Pilots & Upgrades require no skill and are against the spirit/original design intent of the game?

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Agreed, there's some that need price upticks. But looking for opinions on those that just don't really reflect what the core game is really about. I'll throw 3 out;

Jakku Gunrunner (Action ability combined with improved dial such a 1 hard turns renders good flanking and approach vectors null)

Sloane Crew (Punishes opponents for playing the game as intended. No skill required)

Trajectory Simulator (pretty much has kept most Iconic swarms such as TIEs) out of list building, silly mechanic logistically

Edited by Cloaker

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To me the most "I don't have to put any thought into this" combo of cards is Kavil + Proton Torps + Han Gunner.  You just 1 forward towards whatever you want dead.  Target lock it once in range.  Grunt out a Han focus.  Push the shooty button.  Is it dead?  If not.  One forward next turn.  Repeat process or use 4 dice dorsal on it. 

Edited by viedit

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Eh.  Iden hasn't been in any list of any useful placing at any recent event.  It only works on Tie L/N's and at range 1.  Yeah it sucks and it's stupid.  But it's useful once and then it's done.  You just keep shooting at howlrunner until she's dead.  The end.

Redline is weird...it's the ship that probably has one of the lowest floors of entry, but also one of the highest skill ceilings.  You need to know when and how to maximize that advanced sensor abuse.  Compare that to Kavil that is basically on auto-pilot until he dies.  Redline is much more of an interesting ship.  

Crow title...whatever.  Proton torp Palob off the board and not worry about him.  5 health goes fast at i3.

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6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I take it then that second edition is full of swarms?

I hear TIE Swarm is apparently The Best in the 2.0 only format, though I haven’t seen a single game of it myself, so I cannot corroborate that.

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36 minutes ago, viedit said:

Eh.  Iden hasn't been in any list of any useful placing at any recent event.  It only works on Tie L/N's and at range 1.  Yeah it sucks and it's stupid.  But it's useful once and then it's done.  You just keep shooting at howlrunner until she's dead.  The end.

Redline is weird...it's the ship that probably has one of the lowest floors of entry, but also one of the highest skill ceilings.  You need to know when and how to maximize that advanced sensor abuse.  Compare that to Kavil that is basically on auto-pilot until he dies.  Redline is much more of an interesting ship.  

Crow title...whatever.  Proton torp Palob off the board and not worry about him.  5 health goes fast at i3.

That's not the question we were asked though.

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This thread wasn't meant to create a bash or deride other's opinions on the topic, just to actually GET opinions on pilots and upgrades per topic. No need to judge or defend, just share what one thinks goes against what they believe is the spirit of the game. 

Edited by Cloaker

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The combination of Roark and Han gunner.  In general, the bonus attack effects in this game were carefully crafted to prevent most double-attacks on the same target.  Veteran Turret Gunner only lets you use an arc you haven't used, which mostly means that you have one-shot only.  Han gunner on the surface is just a faster VTG, except Roark exists.  I mean, it's clearly legal, but it almost feels like a glitched interaction.

Even then, I don't know that it's "too easy" per se, but rather just an unfun kind of thing to play against with a lot of lists.

//

Other than that, I don't necessarily think things are a problem because they're too easy.  I just think they're too easy at certain price points.  Luke-Gunner is a safety valve, one which lets a player invest a lot in getting a shot off on arc dodgers.  He's really easy.  He pays enough for it.  At the right price, almost anything "too easy" is going to seem fair to me.  TIE Defenders are another example.

Something on the bubble is maybe crew Darth Vader.  Just get arc, and you've got the equivalent of a fairly decent attack, for 14 points.

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Seismic Charges: they don't detonate until the end of activation, so good placement means you have the choice of three different obstacles to destroy. That's a large area to cover, and you get to choose which obstacle to destroy with perfect knowledge of your opponent's final positions.

Everything else is fine.

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58 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Iden Versio

Redline

Moldy Crow

All of these meet the "requires no skill" aspect of the OP, but I'm not sure that they violate the spirit of the game. 

I think you SHOULD pay more for the abilities that Redline and Iden bring to the table, but only to balance the impact that they bring; they are still cool abilities that can add some depth to a game and force some tough decision making on both sides.

Moldy Crow (while powerful) is 100% thematic to what the Scum faction is about. Actual real-life Private Military Companies (mercenaries) have BETTER equipment (soldier to soldier) than most government funded armies. Scum are supposed to host tons of after-market upgrades on their craft. You should have to pay through the teeth for them, but they are supposed to have a big impact on how the ship performs.   

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1 hour ago, viedit said:

You just 1 forward towards whatever you want dead.  Target lock it once in range.  Grunt out a Han focus.  Push the shooty button.  Is it dead?  If not.  One forward next turn.  Repeat process or use 4 dice dorsal on it.

If this applies the other player is flying really dumb... 

Edit: More to the point. TIE Punishers in general. For their cost the sheer amount of firepower and utility they bring is nuts. That sort of thing is supposedly supposed to cost a bit of a premium, but not in their case apparently...

Edited by Hiemfire

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Redline - because double actions no stress is what they were trying to get away from. Focus lock kturn fire torps is just nuts.

Vader Crew - auto damage is too strong in xwing. Should be a roll for the dmg if no green tokens. I feel like this card is just easy street, a crutch. No skill. Same feeling for this card as I do Luke Gunner. Should be priced 20+pts. Not a whisper hater. Love whisper and phantoms in 2.0. Just hate this card.

Rose crew - just a dumb idea turning blank greens AND red dice into free locks. Even when stressed. I see abuse incoming. This is not a good card to have in the game.

 

Edited by wurms

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Trajectory Sims is ENTIRELY in the spirit of the game 

It is utterly positioning dependent and forces players to consider the manuevering aspect (ie "the game part of the game") rather than the dice aspect

Not to mention that Sims havnt had jack effect on anything list building wise because they're not even remotely competitively popular outside the one redline, who is taken for big mod torps 

Now as to what ACTUALLY flies in the face of the spirit of the game...well pwts no longer exist so we really don't have much to complain about.  

I'm personally not a fan of high I alpha strikes because I feel you basically can't do anything about them unless you take specific counters or bid like a madman or fodder something (making it more difficult to take on the high I ships in the late game). I feel ordnance costs really oughta scale with the I of the pilot taking it

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, viedit said:

Eh.  Iden hasn't been in any list of any useful placing at any recent event.  It only works on Tie L/N's and at range 1.  Yeah it sucks and it's stupid.  But it's useful once and then it's done.  You just keep shooting at howlrunner until she's dead.  The end.

Redline is weird...it's the ship that probably has one of the lowest floors of entry, but also one of the highest skill ceilings.  You need to know when and how to maximize that advanced sensor abuse.  Compare that to Kavil that is basically on auto-pilot until he dies.  Redline is much more of an interesting ship.  

Crow title...whatever.  Proton torp Palob off the board and not worry about him.  5 health goes fast at i3.

 

The problem is that the ability on Redline is simply too good and, in my opinion, they messed it up hard because of the languag.  Because Redline says "Acquire a target lock" instead of "take a Target Lock action" he action combos in a substantial number of weird and probably unintentional ways.  Does your Redline have a damaged sensor array?  no problem, just focus and lock anyways.  Do you need to K-Turn?  We've got you, just Advanced Sensors a focus and lock.  Hopelessly Ioned?  Worry no more, just focus lock.

 

It circumvents a lot of limitations that seem to be purposefully put in place to prevent exactly what he's doing.  This might be fine, but he's also really undercosted for an I5 that can almost always focus + Lock with a wide array of ordnance options.

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Hmm. Yeah they should just rerelease Redline as "after you perform an action, you may perform a red target lock action" They will have a chance to update the pilot card in the Punisher 2.0 release. I know in 1.0 they rereleased Advanced Slam in the Gunboat with errated wording, so maybe they can do the same with a pilot card? It's either that or cost him up near 55-60 points. 

Edited by HanScottFirst

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19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The combination of Roark and Han gunner.  In general, the bonus attack effects in this game were carefully crafted to prevent most double-attacks on the same target.  Veteran Turret Gunner only lets you use an arc you haven't used, which mostly means that you have one-shot only.  Han gunner on the surface is just a faster VTG, except Roark exists.  I mean, it's clearly legal, but it almost feels like a glitched interaction.

Even then, I don't know that it's "too easy" per se, but rather just an unfun kind of thing to play against with a lot of lists.

//

Other than that, I don't necessarily think things are a problem because they're too easy.  I just think they're too easy at certain price points.  Luke-Gunner is a safety valve, one which lets a player invest a lot in getting a shot off on arc dodgers.  He's really easy.  He pays enough for it.  At the right price, almost anything "too easy" is going to seem fair to me.  TIE Defenders are another example.

Something on the bubble is maybe crew Darth Vader.  Just get arc, and you've got the equivalent of a fairly decent attack, for 14 points.

I don't believe Roark is the problem there, but the problem is with Han Gunner (Rebel).  If we get a damage based turret, then Kanan on the VCX could do the same thing using Heightened Perception.  

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Eh, I think the one's that you've listed aren't too bad. To be honest, the only ships that I feel go against the spirit of the game are punishers with trajectory simulator, Norra, Luke in the X, and possibly Fenn Rau in his Fang. Trajectory simulator is just a dumb mistake that should not have been brought over. It's not OP, it's just not very thematic.

Norra and Luke both fit into the same camp of "get's shot at repeatedly and nothing happens". Norra has better-than-1.0 reinforce (requires no actions and works if stressed, blocked, on a rock, etc.) and she can stack it with Jyn Erso to have a guaranteed 2 free health to the first person who shoots her in a round, so shooting at her is a trap. I recently had a Norra take shots from 4 ships in one round and not take any damage. Even if she does take damage, she still has 8 more health to chew through and she is going to be kicking the **** out of whatever is engaging her. Along these lines, Luke is similar to Norra, but he can actually get shot at and become even better thanks to his ability. Doing what you're supposed (getting an enemy ship in arc and shooting at it), yet not being rewarded is pretty NPE.

Fenn seems fair at the base level, but when you look at all that he can do, he seems to be the most 1.0 in 2.0 ship in the field. With Fearless, he get's passive mods on defense and offense, he has built in PTL, and with the nerfing of turrets and bombs and VI, he basically has no weaknesses. He's a jouster and a flanker and is basically a monster in the hands of a veteran player. This seems the inverse of "no skill", but really how hard is it get an enemy ship in your arc, range 1, as an IV 6 with re-positioning? Not very difficult at all. Put L3 next to him and now you have a token stacking, IV 6 that can throw 5 dice, be in arc, range 1 of multiple ships, and still walk away unscathed due to his passive mods with laughable restrictions. L3 next to Fenn creates the single biggest NPE set-up in the entire game. 

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20 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

The problem is that the ability on Redline is simply too good and, in my opinion, they messed it up hard because of the languag.  Because Redline says "Acquire a target lock" instead of "take a Target Lock action" he action combos in a substantial number of weird and probably unintentional ways.  Does your Redline have a damaged sensor array?  no problem, just focus and lock anyways.  Do you need to K-Turn?  We've got you, just Advanced Sensors a focus and lock.  Hopelessly Ioned?  Worry no more, just focus lock.

 

It circumvents a lot of limitations that seem to be purposefully put in place to prevent exactly what he's doing.  This might be fine, but he's also really undercosted for an I5 that can almost always focus + Lock with a wide array of ordnance options.

100% agree that it should have been perform target lock action.  That would easily resolve a majority of Redline's abusiveness.   I think that was a serious miss on release.

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