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Cloaker

In your opinion; Which Pilots & Upgrades require no skill and are against the spirit/original design intent of the game?

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Honestly, I really don't think a lot of Scum fits with the spirit of the game.  In First Edition, it often felt like most of your real, critical decisions were made in list-building.  For the majority of matches, who won and who lost really just came down to the lists (barring incredibly skewed dice), and the decisions you made during the game didn't count for as much.  In Second Edition, I feel that one of the purposes was to add more in-game decision-making, and the Scum I see played don't really fit with that too well.

Take Palob, for instance.  His ability removes a token from an enemy and gives himself a copy of the token.  There are no choices to make, and no penalty for doing so.  There's also no cost in using this ability, so there's absolutely no reason not to use it if one has the chance.  Furthermore, gaining tokens without requiring actions and being able to stack them easily (with the title) both seem to go against the spirit of the game as I understood it.  I feel there should have been more choices for the player to make, or costs to pay for such an ability.

Contrast with Vader crew.  In addition to point cost, Vader also takes up a Crew slot.  His ability, while you may choose to use it the vast majority of the time, isn't completely automatic, because he has to spend a rather valuable token to use it.  Usually, it's more important to use his ability than it is to use the Force token for something else, but that's not guaranteed.  Then, when his ability is used, the opponent is offered a choice.  Again, most of the time the player may choose to do one thing, but it's not guaranteed in every instance.  Some may argue that Vader is stronger than Palob, and maybe he is, but that's simply a matter of balancing costs.  When it comes to the spirit of the game, Vader doesn't feel like he's violating it as much as Palob is.

Another big transgressor is 4-LOM.  In the game, stress is a major balancing factor.  You can do some of your very useful maneuvers or actions only if you take a stress to pay for it.  4-LOM turns this on its head by actually being rewarded for doing red maneuvers, and then being able to not only shed the stress, but actually punish another ship with it.  Add in Advanced Sensors, and his ability basically just becomes "Every turn gain a Calculate and give an opponent a stress token, and treat all Red maneuvers as White".

Now, I don't mind abilities that add in a twist, but there should be some sort of trade-off or payment for them.  For instance, if 4-LOM said, "You may perform actions while stressed.  You may not perform actions while not stressed," or had some cost (e.g. spend a token, take a damage, etc.) that would have given him a huge twist, but also made the opponent have to make choices of when and how to use his ability.  Or, swap his dial around so that the Red maneuvers are his straights, or something like that.  As it is, he pretty much just gets close to the opponent and starts doing the same thing every single turn.

Overall, I just feel like too many of the abilities don't require actions and do too much for too little cost.  With these cards and a few others, the only cost one pays is during list-building, and there're no real decisions to make during the game.  That's exactly how it was during First Edition, and I was really hoping for better in Second.  Again, I'm not saying these abilities are overpowered, but simply that they don't fit with what I was looking for in a game.

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On 12/12/2018 at 10:53 AM, Cloaker said:

 ... looking for opinions on those that just don't really reflect what the core game is really about. ...

I completely understand where you're coming from with this question. I've personally spent plenty of time obsessing on imperfections in this game. 

But honestly, I don't get to vote on what mechanics are in or not in my favorite game. 

Maybe one of us will win worlds... Then we'll get a tiny, one-card vote. 

Maybe. 

Until then, I've decided to try enjoy all the ways to play this game - broken or not. 

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29 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Another big transgressor is 4-LOM.  In the game, stress is a major balancing factor.  You can do some of your very useful maneuvers or actions only if you take a stress to pay for it.  4-LOM turns this on its head by actually being rewarded for doing red maneuvers, and then being able to not only shed the stress, but actually punish another ship with it.  Add in Advanced Sensors, and his ability basically just becomes "Every turn gain a Calculate and give an opponent a stress token, and treat all Red maneuvers as White".

Now, I don't mind abilities that add in a twist, but there should be some sort of trade-off or payment for them.  For instance, if 4-LOM said, "You may perform actions while stressed.  You may not perform actions while not stressed," or had some cost (e.g. spend a token, take a damage, etc.) that would have given him a huge twist, but also made the opponent have to make choices of when and how to use his ability.  Or, swap his dial around so that the Red maneuvers are his straights, or something like that.  As it is, he pretty much just gets close to the opponent and starts doing the same thing every single turn.

So, on that same vein, do you dislike the B-Wint pilot Ten Numb?  He is also awarded for stress maneuvers, and Advanced Sensors tends to be used for much the same reasons.  Indeed with Ten, you can take a lock action, perform a red 1-turn, and launch a fully modded proton torpedo, using your stress as if it were a Focus.  

Likewise is it bothersome that Kyle Katarn can take a perceptive copilot and just toss a Focus token out to squad mates in one of his arcs, with no actual penalty or twist?  Dialed in a Tallon roll for Wedge, but hey no problem!  He gets a Focus now as well!  Shara Bey needing two turns to setup her combo?  Meh, now she can lock, get a Focus tossed to her, and still do a 4-die primary at R1 + bonus eyeball with Focus.

 

I get what you’re saying, but an important thing to remember about several of the Scum abilities and ships is that they get their design from the Rebels or Imperials.  Palob and Kyle are identical opposites.  Kyle throws a token to an ally in firing arc up to range 3, and Palob steals a token from an enemy in firing arc up to range 2.  Both are potentially powerful, but one is more of a “troll” ability.  Meanwhile Ten Numb (Farlander) and 4-Lom have similarly red-filled dials, and gain benefits from stress.  And both also have the ability to benefit from their stress and get rid of it, either as a focus or as something to pass off on the opponent.  Xizor has an anti-Biggs ability.  And Serrisu and Howlrunner have similar abilities, allowing rerolls to friendly ships rolling defense and attack dice respectively.  

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29 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

So, on that same vein, do you dislike the B-Wint pilot Ten Numb?  He is also awarded for stress maneuvers, and Advanced Sensors tends to be used for much the same reasons.  Indeed with Ten, you can take a lock action, perform a red 1-turn, and launch a fully modded proton torpedo, using your stress as if it were a Focus.  

Ten Numb I'll grant you.  A stress is not a Focus, and should not be treated as such.  If his ability required him to gain a stress to perform, it might make a little more sense.

29 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Likewise is it bothersome that Kyle Katarn can take a perceptive copilot and just toss a Focus token out to squad mates in one of his arcs, with no actual penalty or twist?

But Kyle does have a cost.  He needs to have a token and remove a token from himself, at which point he can no longer use that token.  You get a bonus (a friendly ship gets the token) at the cost of a negative (Kyle loses the token).  Contrast with Palob who gets a bonus (he gets a token) at the cost of another bonus (an enemy loses a token).  If Palob took a friendly ship's token to himself, or passed an enemy ship's token to another enemy ship, it would be more of a parallel to Kyle.

29 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Xizor has an anti-Biggs ability.  And Serrisu and Howlrunner have similar abilities, allowing rerolls to friendly ships rolling defense and attack dice respectively.  

I've not actually encountered Xizor or Serissu, but I suppose I don't see anything too horrible about them right off the bat.  Xizor has the cost of damaging a friendly ship, and Serissu doesn't have a cost, but also has a pretty mild ability (only works on defense, only modifies one die, only works on ships that are very close).  I'm not saying every ability needs to be 0-sum, but the more potent an ability is, the more it should cost, even if that cost is simply the opportunity cost of not doing something else (one reason I think more abilities should require that the pilot not be stressed).

Edited by JJ48

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37 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ten Numb I'll grant you.  A stress is not a Focus, and should not be treated as such.  If his ability required him to gain a stress to perform, it might make a little more sense.

But Kyle does have a cost.  He needs to have a token and remove a token from himself, at which point he can no longer use that token.  You get a bonus (a friendly ship gets the token) at the cost of a negative (Kyle loses the token).  Contrast with Palob who gets a bonus (he gets a token) at the cost of another bonus (an enemy loses a token).  If Palob took a friendly ship's token to himself, or passed an enemy ship's token to another enemy ship, it would be more of a parallel to Kyle.

In the case of the B-Wing (and 4-Lom), they also have the reddest dials in the game.  On top of that, they’re not at all hard to hit when attacking, nor are they particularly quick.  Neither ship can perform a 3-turn, and only their 2-turn is white.  And even moreso, there are ships that serve as better gunships.  Indeed stress-shenanigans, and access to Sensors, tends to be a focal point of their aces.  Otherwise, they’re just cheap meat-walls.

In Kyle’s case, his “negative” is assuming that he doesn’t have the Moldy Crow.  Losing a Focus, when you have somewhere between somewhere between 2 to 4, is not a penalty in the least.  Perceptive Copilot is pretty much the only crew Kyle should be taking.  

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32 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

In Kyle’s case, his “negative” is assuming that he doesn’t have the Moldy Crow.  Losing a Focus, when you have somewhere between somewhere between 2 to 4, is not a penalty in the least.  Perceptive Copilot is pretty much the only crew Kyle should be taking.  

But he does have a negative, if very slight.  Since it is such a slight negative, maybe it should cost more, but that's an issue of power, not spirit of the game.  If Kyle were designed like Palob, he would give his ally a token and gain one himself.  That's a completely different feel, there.

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

But he does have a negative, if very slight.  Since it is such a slight negative, maybe it should cost more, but that's an issue of power, not spirit of the game.  If Kyle were designed like Palob, he would give his ally a token and gain one himself.  That's a completely different feel, there.

I see the (very) minimal negative of giving away a token, which he will usually have quite a few of, as being equal to the difference in range-bands that their ability will affect.  

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3 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I see the (very) minimal negative of giving away a token, which he will usually have quite a few of, as being equal to the difference in range-bands that their ability will affect.  

Maybe, but that has absolutely nothing to do with which, if either, ability fits with the spirit of the game.

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Anything that wins a tournament. It is obvious that Worlds were not won by people with skill but by jank such as Turrets and Jumpmasters. If it wins it must be broken and requires no skill, as I use lists that require skill like Vader and Soontir yet I keep losing. If you don't play Darth Vader in a TIE Advance you don't play a skill list.

:P

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5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Anything that wins a tournament. It is obvious that Worlds were not won by people with skill but by jank such as Turrets and Jumpmasters. If it wins it must be broken and requires no skill, as I use lists that require skill like Vader and Soontir yet I keep losing. If you don't play Darth Vader in a TIE Advance you don't play a skill list.

:P

Aw, so my triple Lambdas don't require skill?

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On 12/12/2018 at 11:11 AM, viedit said:

To me the most "I don't have to put any thought into this" combo of cards is Kavil + Proton Torps + Han Gunner.  You just 1 forward towards whatever you want dead.  Target lock it once in range.  Grunt out a Han focus.  Push the shooty button.  Is it dead?  If not.  One forward next turn.  Repeat process or use 4 dice dorsal on it. 

this part slayed me

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On 12/14/2018 at 9:52 PM, It’s One Of Ours said:

I see the (very) minimal negative of giving away a token, which he will usually have quite a few of, as being equal to the difference in range-bands that their ability will affect.  

Kyle either pays 10 points for PerCo or rapidly runs out of tokens

Palob pays zero points for a double-bonus

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On 12/12/2018 at 12:01 PM, Carnor Rex said:

I could see the gunrunner needing an increase. But the other two I hope not. Sloane in particular I find very interesting to play.. both with and against. 

If anything I think sloane increases the depth of the game by quite a stretch.

Versus Sloane you can either boost past the swarm to target her carrier or you can't

There's no interesting depth if you have a list of jousters (or multiple ships of the same PS) because you either die on the way to Sloan or get crippled by the double-stress + red buff combo on the way in, and a Reaper is no slouch once she gets into the fray

If Sloan were a single stress she'd be fine but double makes the penalty too severe, if you don't have a high-mobility list you literally are just hoping you roll way better dice than your opponent because otherwise you simply lose trades and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it

Edit: with respect to the multiple ships of the same PS, if the Sloan carrier survives with 1hp, she will still in be in play for the entirety of the next initiative phase you kill her in.  If the dice don't cooperate, you are (again) screwed

It's not that Sloan can't be countered, it's that she's a lose-in-the-list-building-phase card, which were supposed to be eliminated in 2.0

Edited by RampancyTW

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11 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Kyle either pays 10 points for PerCo or rapidly runs out of tokens

Palob pays zero points for a double-bonus

More accurate is that Kyle, who is a support pilot, spends 10 points to ensure that he can effectively continue to assist other ships in the squad.  Palob , who is a debuffing pilot, can spend 10 points to ensure that he can continue to perform non-focus actions and still be an effective threat when the opponent opts to fight him with Target Locks instead.  Sure...  Palob doesn’t *Need* Perceptive CoPilot; it’s just extremely useful.  He’ll also likely end up at 42 points base cost.  

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I mean, calculation tokens and target locks completely counter Palob, arc dodgers and aces if flown right do as well. Which are both list building and game descisions. Sounds more like you fly into the teeth and expect them to be pillows.

 

Sloane is countered by kill order. Either target her or have something that doesn't mind the stress finish off ships. Its difficult but not against any spirit of the game that I see.

 

What I see that is against the spirit of the game is people complaining. Every problem has some sort of solution, you just have to work it out. Points need slight tweaking to get more ships on the board so less mirrors, but in comp play that's going to happen.

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11 hours ago, FriendofYoda said:

Sloane is a super cool concept, but playing with her I felt she was undercosted. I think that's a 14-15 pt card and still a very powerful one at that. Just so **** easy to keep active every round it's beautiful

That has generally been my reaction to many of the “problems” v2 has.  It’s not that the card or ability exists, such as with v1 TLT or Harpoon Missiles.  But rather that they’re undercosted.  Palob absolutely should be more points.  Probably equal to that of Jan Ors, at least.  Sloane and gunner Han are very efficient and cheap for what you get out of them.   But nothing is game-breakingly bad so far.

Edited by It’s One Of Ours

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13 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


By punishing your opponent everytime they kill one of your ships in a game where the only victory condition is "kill your opponent's ships"?

Great design indeed.

Sloane is great for many reasons. Under costed a bit maybe but not busted.

Sloane's effectiveness increases the cheaper the support. She's also better against aces than generics who don't care near as much about one lost action. And then there's the mini game of hunting the carrier and target priority. For these reasons I like the card and find it interesting and challenging. 

If anything I could see it being restricted from the phantom. Beyond that it's fine IMO.

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5 minutes ago, Carnor Rex said:

Sloane is great for many reasons. Under costed a bit maybe but not busted.

Sloane's effectiveness increases the cheaper the support. She's also better against aces than generics who don't care near as much about one lost action. And then there's the mini game of hunting the carrier and target priority. For these reasons I like the card and find it interesting and challenging. 

If anything I could see it being restricted from the phantom. Beyond that it's fine IMO.

There are also some pilots who Sloane doesn’t impact at all...  4-Lom just gets more ammo to send back to the enemy ships, Jek can (try) to hold it, Nien Numb is a honey badger at R1 with an enemy in front arc, and Ten Numb laughs maniacally.

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