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In your opinion; Which Pilots & Upgrades require no skill and are against the spirit/original design intent of the game?

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24 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

<snip> I feel ordnance costs really oughta scale with the I of the pilot taking it

A lot of the balance in the game is hamstrung by not scaling upgrade cost with pilot cost.  That is probably too much fuss for FFG's vision for the game but I definitely think some upgrades could and should scale with pilot initiative.  Munitions and repositional upgrades are much more valuable on higher initiative pilots.

A blue squad B-wing should not pay the same price for Advanced Sensors and Proton Torpedoes as Redline.

 

In answer to the OP, Redline.  That ability is just stupid and dumb and badly written.

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16 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Fenn seems fair at the base level, but when you look at all that he can do, he seems to be the most 1.0 in 2.0 ship in the field. With Fearless, he get's passive mods on defense and offense, he has built in PTL, and with the nerfing of turrets and bombs and VI, he basically has no weaknesses. He's a jouster and a flanker and is basically a monster in the hands of a veteran player. This seems the inverse of "no skill", but really how hard is it get an enemy ship in your arc, range 1, as an IV 6 with re-positioning? Not very difficult at all. Put L3 next to him and now you have a token stacking, IV 6 that can throw 5 dice, be in arc, range 1 of multiple ships, and still walk away unscathed due to his passive mods with laughable restrictions. L3 next to Fenn creates the single biggest NPE set-up in the entire game. 

The thing with Fenn is the same with any ace in 2.0.  They aren't immortal at range 2-3.  If your opponent has Fenn, setup in a position where you can stall for a turn or two to see where Fenn is going, then react.  Point as many guns at him as you can and he'll take damage.  It happens now.  

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17 minutes ago, FrozenPhyro said:

I don't believe Roark is the problem there, but the problem is with Han Gunner (Rebel).  If we get a damage based turret, then Kanan on the VCX could do the same thing using Heightened Perception.  

If there was ever a high-damage turret, Kanan wouldn't even need Han Gunner; he could just use Veteran Turret Gunner.  Of course, it only works in the front arc of an Init 3 ship, so it'd be a lot easier to dodge.

But that's all kind of splitting hairs.  What exists in the game now is Double-Tap Dash.

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Also: the "original design intent of the game" included "ordnance is a trap for bad players who want to spend points on shots that are worse than just using their primary weapon and having the target lock to spend," so I don't give that a lot of credence.

Edited by skotothalamos

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Quote

The player cannot be bothered to interpret the will of the game designer as far as which [cards] are “fair” and which [cards] are not, or which [cards] were intended and which [cards] weren’t. It’s irrelevant anyway. The player knows only [cards] that lead to winning and [cards] that don’t.

-http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/how-far-should-you-go-to-win?fbclid=IwAR2nXhjFdnaK-KWrxNZXuAOKx4bcTysd431eyPFFnRWeOj0t8dNOGZLf4Ns

 

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Hmm, I've been trying to think of other examples but have been having a hard time

Unlike 1st Ed, 2nd Ed's problems stem (I believe) from poor allocation of point costs. The game isn't fundamentally busted like PWTs + TLTs + ps 10 genius nym drops + unkillable Palp aces etc, it just needs to flex the infrastructure with which it's been built (ze app)

Other than the aforementioned high I ordnance, I would also have liked it if passive support ships (Drea/howlie/Jonus) were more action dependent (add "when focused," to their ability)

So **** it, I'll list a positive example for once:

I REALLY love the imperial ship specific abilities, they turn the phantom/striker/reaper into a "Jane, stop this crazy thiiiiinnnggg!" joy ride that you excitedly try not to run ground a rock (or maybe you do, just to keep your opponent guessing...)

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31 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The player cannot be bothered to interpret the will of the game designer as far as which [cards] are “fair” and which [cards] are not, or which [cards] were intended and which [cards] weren’t. It’s irrelevant anyway. The player knows only [cards] that lead to winning and [cards] that don’t.

Hmm.

Quote

I’m here to tell you that legitimate competitive games are not like this. Reasonable games have built-in rules and simply do not allow illegal moves to happen in the first place. Tournaments for reasonable games sometimes have to impose extra rules, but they keep this list as clear and as short as possible. 

Seems like an article trying to legitimize being a tournament ***hat to win, and any skullduggery on said player's part is simply the game designer's fault.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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5 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Agreed, there's some that need price upticks. But looking for opinions on those that just don't really reflect what the core game is really about. I'll throw 3 out;

Jakku Gunrunner (Action ability combined with improved dial such a 1 hard turns renders good flanking and approach vectors null)

Sloane Crew (Punishes opponents for playing the game as intended. No skill required)

Trajectory Simulator (pretty much has kept most Iconic swarms such as TIEs) out of list building, silly mechanic logistically

all of those thing require good flying and decision making to counter....  to me that is the spirit of the game.

 

 

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I've got a different perspective on this, since I've seen my kids play a lot, but a lot of "no skills" list are actually very easy to fly poorly. A lot of what seems obvious to experienced players is actually a lot to wrap your head around in order to do it right. I've been meaning to write a piece on this for a while now.

My oldest tore apart good players with crackshot Glaives in 1.0, pre and post nerf, it actually made no difference to him. That list was easy to figure out, then your own personal talent set the ceiling. In OT tournaments, he killed with Vader and Soontir. However, as soon as you get into combo-wing "easy mode", he'd crash and burn. Too many triggers to set up just right to make it work.

They fly themselves if you already know how to play well already. If you don't, they'll just give you a slight edge which you can squander away by not fully grasping how it works.

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thing about Redline is literally not a single ability, 1.0 or 2.0, has ever mentioned acquiring a lock to be an action.

They've always worded it that way. "Acquire a lock" instead of "Perform a lock action" - its literally always been the only action lock is the normal actionbar or that droid that basically merged lock + boost in one action with a condition.

I dont see Redline being that big of an issue. Major threat, yes, gamebreaker no. Punishers still die easy.

Scum Han Gunner is the king of the easy-play cards. Put him on a turret ship, dial a green, free focus every round nobody can do anything about (depending on timing with other start of combat abilities) and to top it off hes pennies cheap. Other comparable insane abilities are priced through the roof (anybody remember Luke Gunner flak before we saw his price????)

Edited by Vineheart01

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1 minute ago, Dengar5 said:

Dash Rendar with Han Solo gunner + Roark Garnet HWK

Playing against that is my first NPE in 2nd edition.

I crushed it the first and only time I flew against it... It seemed like alot of firepower until I realized a 4 or 5 ship list has more.

I was flying 3x tie advanced with a support shuttle, the crit storm was defening. I just gunned down dash quickly.

It's a gimmick list with all its eggs in 2 baskets and breaking either basket screws the other. Not sure how it's a negitive play experience, just oriented dash is 2x ships (his points are in that realm anyways) and it's less intimidating. 

 

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Dash with Schrodinger's Obstacle and Norra Wexley both tilt me HARD. Norra tanking a billion TIE fighter shots because I had the audacity to try to get a RB1 shot off is ridiculous. +1 green would be ok but +1 evade makes games feel not even worth playing.

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40 minutes ago, Icelom said:

It's a gimmick list with all its eggs in 2 baskets and breaking either basket screws the other.

Exactly this. Both times I've played against it, I went after Roark hard. Got him out of the fight, and then was able to beat Dash at my leisure.

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1 hour ago, drjkel said:

I've got a different perspective on this, since I've seen my kids play a lot, but a lot of "no skills" list are actually very easy to fly poorly. A lot of what seems obvious to experienced players is actually a lot to wrap your head around in order to do it right. I've been meaning to write a piece on this for a while now.

My oldest tore apart good players with crackshot Glaives in 1.0, pre and post nerf, it actually made no difference to him. That list was easy to figure out, then your own personal talent set the ceiling. In OT tournaments, he killed with Vader and Soontir. However, as soon as you get into combo-wing "easy mode", he'd crash and burn. Too many triggers to set up just right to make it work.

They fly themselves if you already know how to play well already. If you don't, they'll just give you a slight edge which you can squander away by not fully grasping how it works.

+1 to this. My boy is a proper handful with simple, aggressive lists that either zoom and boom or just smash into your face and stay there.

A lot of the meta lists leave him scratching his head.

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58 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I crushed it the first and only time I flew against it... It seemed like alot of firepower until I realized a 4 or 5 ship list has more.

I was flying 3x tie advanced with a support shuttle, the crit storm was defening. I just gunned down dash quickly.

It's a gimmick list with all its eggs in 2 baskets and breaking either basket screws the other. Not sure how it's a negitive play experience, just oriented dash is 2x ships (his points are in that realm anyways) and it's less intimidating. 

 

Eating two 4 (or maybe even 5 dice) attacks with strong mods before you can shoot--no matter what you bring--isn't really fun.  It's the same as the worst of high-Init alpha strike, just shaped a little differently than Proton Torpedoes.  Personally, I don't find it fun to fly against.  Having ships deleted in a single round of fire isn't something I enjoy.  Give me stuff I have to dance around with, even top tables large tournament stuff like Choke-Me-Harder-Daddy Whisper.

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LOL. Quadjumpers, Sloane and Trajectory simulator are three of my favourite things in the game because they are interactive, tricky problems that you need to solve.

The Roark/Dash list is pretty annoying, and it really stomps on certain lists, but it does take some skill to fly it well. I think it falls into the same basket as supernatural primed thrusters kylo - very frustrating for certain lists, but weak against others, and you have to have some brains to make it work. At least dash/roark kills you quickly.

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I don't know about against the spirit of the game or that I'd actually remove them, but I do find Trajectory Simulator a headache and Concordia Faceoff irksome (especially since I don't understand the flavour, nor why it triggers when we're not actually facing).

It's a good point that Trajectory Simulator, Sloane and Quadjumpers (the latter two of which I haven't faced) are in the spirit of the game because they affect maneuvering. I think the reason some find them frustrating is that they make maneuvering much more difficult for one player than the other. I can see both sides of the argument. I said Trajectory Simulator was a headache, but I could choose to view it as an interesting challenge.

Edited by TheHumanHydra

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The devs seemed to put a good deal of effort into limiting actions, limiting firing arcs,  avoiding token stacking, and making native initiative meaningful. 

Things that go against those things can easily become problematic: Moldy Crow, Roark + Reb G-Han, Scum G-Han, Redline, G-Luke, etc.  

I am not sure I would want them all out of the game, but these are the kinds of things that will be hard to price well and can break with new synergies.

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8 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

What's the hate on Moldy Crow?  Just too cheap for what it does.

I think the crow price is fine. It does offer a lot for the price, but the hwk was due a decent buff. The biggest thing it does is enable 2x the effective area of control for pilots dependent on arcs for their ability to trigger. 

I'm not convinced Palob is oppressive. He is just in lists with a number of other things with high amounts of their own control (4Lom and tugboats) and/or offense (Boba/Kavil) that you have to deal with. 

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The fact so many lists have to rely on just firing loads of torpedoes is kind of bad. I feel massively outgunned if I'm not carrying 2 or 3 sets of proton torpedoes. 

I don't fully get why some ships have lots of linked actions and some have none, not sure if it's fully reflected in points since getting two actions instead of one is amazing.

I hate the fact they brought back I'll Show You The Dark Side, but I haven't actually faced it yet.

I don't have many complaints about 2.0 really though, it's so much better than before.

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