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KFMixer

So RUDE to quit games ???!!???

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I'm not sure if 90% of the players are here to play the game fully out to fruition.  Personally, that's not what my main focus is.  It isn't even deck testing to be honest.

For me, the important thing for crucible is getting down play mechanics.  There are some very interesting combinations of cards, which seem murky as to how the game physically deals with the topic.  One of the ones that I've been looking at is the rule of six.  Another that I've been starting to look at is simultaneous effects.  I've been choosing the setting that allows me to be prompted for simultaneous actions.  It's little things like this that I look to optimize.

 

No, this thread isn't meant to make me feel better about quitting.  I really don't quit that much unless I really bork something that I didn't think can be fixed.  One of these is incorrect house choice.  I thought that this couldn't be fixed through manual .... BUT, then I found all of the manual commands.  I didn't know these existed, and I think people knowing these would stop less quits from happening (because the game can be fixed).  I had no clue that there were "command prompt" or chat commands available.  

Manual Commands

The following manual commands have been implemented in order to allow for a smoother gameplay experience:

  • /cancel-prompt - Clear the current prompt and resume the game flow. Use with caution and only when the prompt is 'stuck' and you are unable to continue
  • /discard x - Discards x cards randomly from your hand
  • /draw x - Draws x cards from your deck to your hand
  • /forge - Forge a key
  • /unforge - Unforge a key
  • /active-house x - Change your active house to x
  • /token x y - Choose a card and change the number of tokens of type x to y
  • /give-control - Give control of a card to your opponent. Use with caution
  • /manual - Activate or deactivate manual mode (see above).

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5 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

I'm not an advocate to leaving without any type of communication, that would suggest that I'm a proponent of it.  All I'm suggesting is that if an opponent leaves without saying anything, then the person should take that as a complete win.  Crucible website developer says that there's no difference between conceding or not, and I feel the same is to be said if someone chats or doesn't.  

It does make a difference if someone says something before leaving or doesn't  We aren't just numbers and stats. It's called etiquette.  Do you walk into someone's house where you are a guest and just go to the refrigerator and start eating?  I mean, its you were going to eat anyway, it's all the same right? ultimately the function of going there and you eating is being fulfilled.  who cares if you say 'Hi' to them on the way in or not?  As you say, stats aren't tracked.  So if you are on to play, you are just there to enjoy the game.  Does it hurt to be nice while doing it?  And I am not bashing you here.  You seem like a pretty open and honest person.  You say you are a proponent of talking to your opponent, and that is great.  I'm also not against people going on to just test stuff out.  Just let the other player know the situation, and everyone leaves happy. :)  

11 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

Even though personal stats are not being tracked, most players still very much appreciate a formal concede by clicking the ‘Concede’ button and typing ‘gg’ before leaving a game. The reality of quick and anonymous online games dictates this won’t always happen though, as evidenced by regular complaining in the main lobby about people leaving without conceding. Our advice is to just move on to the next game since in the end, conceding or not doesn’t really impact anything. Happy gaming!"

That line you quoted is not the developer saying quitting and conceding are the same thing and you shouldn't try to differentiate them.  It is them saying "Look, some people are rude pricks, doubly so on the internet. But go on to your next game and try not to let them get you down"

12 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

True true, but the caveat to that is that this is a virtual game, and sometimes life happens.  People get disconnected, or emergencies happen.  I wouldn't expect everyone to place as much importance in a virtual game (where people can be using overpowered internet decks) as they do an in person game.  There should be a middle ground though.  I think people who concede a ton, should stay in casual.

Very true, which is why I try to hang around on disconnect in case they come back.  Which makes it all that much more annoying when people do it intentionally.  

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4 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

I'm not sure if 90% of the players are here to play the game fully out to fruition.  Personally, that's not what my main focus is.  It isn't even deck testing to be honest.

For me, the important thing for crucible is getting down play mechanics.  There are some very interesting combinations of cards, which seem murky as to how the game physically deals with the topic.  One of the ones that I've been looking at is the rule of six.  Another that I've been starting to look at is simultaneous effects.  I've been choosing the setting that allows me to be prompted for simultaneous actions.  It's little things like this that I look to optimize.

Be careful with this.  Crucible is not official in any capacity.  The rules are played as the creator of it interpreted them, not necessarily how FFG intends them.  There have been several cases of Crucible being incorrect.  he generally tries to correct for it, but that is the reason manual mode exists.  

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1 minute ago, Derrault said:

I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion, you’re wrong, but you’re entitled to be that. :)

Derrault, are you on crucible to play to completion, or to deck test?  I'm asking because someone stated that over 90% are there to "play for real".  

I personally think there's much more deck testers than others want to think.  Simply because they are there to play, they think over 90% of people are also.  That's kind of funny, since it's not real play, meaning that people can play with not real decks or decks they don't own.  It's my opinion that some of the more serious players will be using crucible to evaluate and test decks, and that they aren't on crucible to "play for real".  For the serious players, it's tournaments and in person play that is real.  

 

I think the people that feel crucible is "real keyforge" have some serious problems.  Maybe they don't own decks of their own, or maybe they can't go play with people.... but that doesn't mean that it's real.  It's a fake version of the game, period.  

 

Even crucible developer says that the site is there to AUGMENT (rather than replace) the in person LCG.  

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Just now, xbeaker said:

Be careful with this.  Crucible is not official in any capacity.  The rules are played as the creator of it interpreted them, not necessarily how FFG intends them.  There have been several cases of Crucible being incorrect.  he generally tries to correct for it, but that is the reason manual mode exists.  

VERY MUCH SO THIS!!!  I agree that Crucible isn't the official verdict of how the mechanics work, but I put more faith in that than someone else's opinion.  Right now, I'm looking into how some things work, how rules are interpreted through crucible all knowing that it's likely to change as revisions and clarifications come out. 

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1 minute ago, KFMixer said:

Derrault, are you on crucible to play to completion, or to deck test?  I'm asking because someone stated that over 90% are there to "play for real".  

I personally think there's much more deck testers than others want to think.  Simply because they are there to play, they think over 90% of people are also.  That's kind of funny, since it's not real play, meaning that people can play with not real decks or decks they don't own.  It's my opinion that some of the more serious players will be using crucible to evaluate and test decks, and that they aren't on crucible to "play for real".  For the serious players, it's tournaments and in person play that is real.  

 

I think the people that feel crucible is "real keyforge" have some serious problems.  Maybe they don't own decks of their own, or maybe they can't go play with people.... but that doesn't mean that it's real.  It's a fake version of the game, period.  

 

Even crucible developer says that the site is there to AUGMENT (rather than replace) the in person LCG.  

I'm the one who said 90+% are there to play for real.  but by that I mean they will play the game out to it's conclusion.  They still may be testing out a deck or learning it.  But if you are intending to play the game fully, I consider you to be there to play the game for real.  When I am on, I am generally doing what would be considered testing.  I am learning my decks, and getting reps in with them.  But that is still a real game for me.  I'd rather be playing someone in person, but Crucible is faster and no one has to drive to get to a game. :)  But I was contrasting that 90+% against people who are only going to play a few hands and leave regardless of the outcome.  That is what I consider to not really want to play.  

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8 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

 

That line you quoted is not the developer saying quitting and conceding are the same thing and you shouldn't try to differentiate them.  It is them saying "Look, some people are rude pricks, doubly so on the internet. But go on to your next game and try not to let them get you down"

Very true, which is why I try to hang around on disconnect in case they come back.  Which makes it all that much more annoying when people do it intentionally.  

IDK there bud, I interpret that line a bit different than you.  The way I read it, it's the developer saying that there's no difference if the person clicks concede or just leaves.  That seems to mirror my own opinion that it's a win regardless if they say gg or click the button.  

As for disconnects, I don't wait too long.  I give it one minute, maybe two and then I'm gone.  Perhaps I could give it more time, but I just assume that the person has left.  I also am not placing much emphasis in wins or losses on crucible, because people could be playing with "rigged" internet decks that they don't have access to.  I feel it would be different if each person could only play with their owned decks.  Many people would be more serious, and play to completion.  That would be a fun thing for competitive, is to ask that opponents play with a deck they own, and they play to completion.

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1 hour ago, KFMixer said:

There is too many people complaining, because people quit games on crucible.  Personally, I think that people need to get over that idea. 

 “When a person tells you that you hurt them, you don’t get to decide that you didn’t.”

If enough people think that that behavior is rude, then it's probably rude.

1 hour ago, KFMixer said:

Crucible is for deck testing.

Crucible is for playing Keyforge online. Period. The reasons you may want to do that are entirely your own.

1 hour ago, KFMixer said:

Do you quit games, or does it upset you when opponents quit?

It's upsetting. To a lot of us, apparently. Maybe we should conduct a survey. If you use Crucible, is it for deck testing, or to play full games? Or another reason entirely?

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xbeaker, I know that you are the one that stated over 90%, which I believe you have no evidence for.  I am curious as to what other people on this thread are here for.  I think if we did a survey, that the over 90% wouldn't hold up.  I think there are more hardcore players on here than people give credit for.  Of course, this is how I imagine the responses would turn up.  In reality, we have no clue.  

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I don't see why decktesting and playing full games need to be opposed. They're not in my opinion. If you want to test a deck thoroughly, you're gonna want to see games through, see how you get back from bad draws, bad plays, or even IF you can get back from them. In other words; if you're not playing full games (meaning to the point where defeat is inevitable), you're not truly testing a deck.

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8 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

xbeaker, I know that you are the one that stated over 90%, which I believe you have no evidence for.  I am curious as to what other people on this thread are here for.  I think if we did a survey, that the over 90% wouldn't hold up.  I think there are more hardcore players on here than people give credit for.  Of course, this is how I imagine the responses would turn up.  In reality, we have no clue.  

My only evidence is that in all of my games, only once that I know of did someone drop after only a few hands.  I actually assumed it was an accidental disconnect, but now that you mention testing opening hands, it may have been that.  I have had people drop or concede after I forge my first key but that is very rare.  I have had several people leave when I forge my second key.  I have never had someone leave while they were winning.  I am a sample size of 1, but I have well over a hundred games on crucible.  So my experience has shown that the vast majority of people are there to play games out.  That there are sore losers who quit as soon as they are behind, and a small number of people who test and bolt but that may also have been a legit disconnect.  But I was not taking data points, no.  So if you feel my experience doesn't count, so be it.  

Also, I'll note that 'playing to its conclusion' to me mean playing to a point in which the there is a very likely winner.  KeyForge is unpredictable, so I'd rarely concede until I know my opponent is going to forge their third next turn.  But I'd get it if my opponent conceded earlier were I up 2 - 0 and they know they don't have anything left in the deck to stop me.

Edited by xbeaker

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3 minutes ago, Palpster said:

I don't see why decktesting and playing full games need to be opposed. They're not in my opinion. If you want to test a deck thoroughly, you're gonna want to see games through, see how you get back from bad draws, bad plays, or even IF you can get back from them. In other words; if you're not playing full games (meaning to the point where defeat is inevitable), you're not truly testing a deck.

Point taken, but where I disagree is that sometimes a game is just lost.  Sure, we can both agree that people quit prematurely sometimes.  But, can we also not agree that sometimes a player gets a horrible draw in addition to their opponent getting a good combination.  I've been in games where I just can't do anything.  They get out a few cards, and I just have zero answer for it.  

Where I disagree with you, is that I don't think that someone has to play the game out to the end every single time, just because they are deck testing....... Where I agree with you, is that if someone REALLY wanted to test out their deck, then they would put it in stressful situations, where they need to make a comeback win and such.  This is a decision that you can't make for the other person.  You can't see their hands, so you just assume they had a chance.  I can see many situations where it saves time to quit.  The game is already lost, and they want to test against another deck.  Why should they feel obligated to waste 30 more minutes in a game that they are going to lose, when they just want to quit and move to the next game?  

 

That's where your own desires to finish the game shouldn't trump your opponents desire to be finished and give you the win.  Do you really want to force them to waste time on a lost cause?  I think that's the trouble part.  You're deciding that they need to play a game for which they have lost desire.  For whatever reason they choose to quit, why would your opinion trump theirs?  You won, period.   If you were in a live tournament, would you stop your opponent from conceding the victory to you?  Would you really FORCE them to play, and take the chance that you lose the tournament?  I think in nearly every case, the player takes the win.  They can be disappointed that they didn't get to play the game out to the end, but that doesn't mean the person forfeiting is rude.  If anything, the people getting butt hurt are the rude ones.  I just don't think they can see that, because OMG he quit the game.  No, he gave you the win and you decided to badger him in global chat.  Who is being the good sport?  Not the crybaby.....

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4 minutes ago, KFMixer said:

Point taken, but where I disagree is that sometimes a game is just lost.  Sure, we can both agree that people quit prematurely sometimes.  But, can we also not agree that sometimes a player gets a horrible draw in addition to their opponent getting a good combination.  I've been in games where I just can't do anything.  They get out a few cards, and I just have zero answer for it.  

Where I disagree with you, is that I don't think that someone has to play the game out to the end every single time, just because they are deck testing....... Where I agree with you, is that if someone REALLY wanted to test out their deck, then they would put it in stressful situations, where they need to make a comeback win and such.  This is a decision that you can't make for the other person.  You can't see their hands, so you just assume they had a chance.  I can see many situations where it saves time to quit.  The game is already lost, and they want to test against another deck.  Why should they feel obligated to waste 30 more minutes in a game that they are going to lose, when they just want to quit and move to the next game?  

 

That's where your own desires to finish the game shouldn't trump your opponents desire to be finished and give you the win.  Do you really want to force them to waste time on a lost cause?  I think that's the trouble part.  You're deciding that they need to play a game for which they have lost desire.  For whatever reason they choose to quit, why would your opinion trump theirs?  You won, period.   If you were in a live tournament, would you stop your opponent from conceding the victory to you?  Would you really FORCE them to play, and take the chance that you lose the tournament?  I think in nearly every case, the player takes the win.  They can be disappointed that they didn't get to play the game out to the end, but that doesn't mean the person forfeiting is rude.  If anything, the people getting butt hurt are the rude ones.  I just don't think they can see that, because OMG he quit the game.  No, he gave you the win and you decided to badger him in global chat.  Who is being the good sport?  Not the crybaby.....

I don't know about others.. but that's all pretty much fine by me.  I don't know if you are speaking from experience about being badgered in global. But in that case, odds are that would be prevented if the quitting party conceded first.  I never complain in chat, but I would only be tempted if a person dropped what seemed like a balanced game for no reason, and with no explanation.  

Things I am opposed to - 
Going into a game knowing you only intend to play a few hands and then are going to drop.  Let your opponent know if this is your plan.
Disconnecting without a word said. Even if you don't want to give 'GG, you got me' at least hit the 'concede button first.  let your opponent know you are leaving on purpose.  
Quitting at the first sign of adversity.  You may have gotten a bad draw.  You opponent may have come out breathing fire and shooting lightning.  But give the game time to grow, you may turn it around.
Being used as a test dummy to try something out when my opponent has no intention of finishing after that test is complete.  Again, let your opponent know if this is your plan.
Using Manual Mode to cheat or modify the game state without informing your opponent and getting their OK*

Things I am fine with -
Playing for fun with no expectations
Playing to test/learn a deck
Playing a deck you don't own
Quitting when you truly believe there is no hope of a win 
Setting up a predetermined test session to try out scenarios as long as both players know that is what they are getting into 

* I played 1 game where my opponent turned on manual mode, and started giving themselves Aember before the mulligan.  I mean, what is the point?!  "Yeah, good for you, you cheated in a game where there are no stats and gave yourself a win. Um, congratulations I guess?"

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I have to agree that just bouncing from a game -never having informed your opponent that you were only going to stick around for a few turns - is rude. 

If so many people share KFMixer's viewpoint and motivations, then perhaps a fourth category of matches should be added to the crucible. That way we will have: beginner, casual, competitive, and game dropping "deck testers"  

That should remove ambiguity. I prefer to see games through to a point of some certainty. Then I concede or accept the win and say "gg". That's how I want to test decks and practice the game. By playing games. It seems weird to assume that your opponent is there for any other reason. 

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26 minutes ago, xbeaker said:


Also, I'll note that 'playing to its conclusion' to me mean playing to a point in which the there is a very likely winner.  KeyForge is unpredictable, so I'd rarely concede until I know my opponent is going to forge their third next turn.  But I'd get it if my opponent conceded earlier were I up 2 - 0 and they know they don't have anything left in the deck to stop me.

Fair enough, I did mean situations like these as well, but should have said so more clearly perhaps.

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2 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Existential crisis notwithstanding, I'm going to peg this as objectively false.

i mean really, i've had so many crucible games where the opponent just didn't like his mulligan and quit. you might just as well be a computer opponent to them

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As with all things online, it tends to bring out the worst in people since they don't have to be held accountable.

Act like a turd in a real life game and there are consequences.

On a side note, I feel that one of the downsides of the turn based play in Keyforge is that when you get behind you are under a lot of pressure to catch back up quickly, or the game can snowball out of control in a hurry. 

There is nothing wrong at looking at a board state, checking your hand to see what you can do to catch up and acknowledging that you are in a position that is likely unwinnable.  How you go about conceding the game is important.  Establishing what it is you are playing for, up front, is also important.  If you're just playing to try and goldfish out your combo deck and then fold if you don't draw the nuts early or any time your deck comes across any resistance, then I think you should establish that beforehand and then give the other person the opportunity not to play with you if they were expecting a full game.  If you get into a game and it reaches a point where you don't feel you can win and don't want to play it out, then at least have the decency to say something before conceding.  And by say something, that doesn't include all the excuses why you lost and the other person just got lucky.

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People who leave a crucible match without clicking Concede are bad people. You can't tell if it is just a random disconnect and they will be back or if they are rage quitting. I would like to see accounts have a reliability rating. Then if you want to play actual games (not just treat your opponent as a nobody and test your draw then leave) you could avoid those with a low reliability rating and be more sure you will get to play an actual game.

I am 100% ok with conceding a game you are certain you lost.  It great to concede and move on to play another match. Leaving though? Nope, thats scummy. If you do that just go draw with your cards on your kitchen table, stop ruining the game for others. 

Edited by Krashwire

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There's literally zero difference if the person leaves or if they concede.  You're just getting your panties in a bunch.  Even the crucible developer says there's no difference.  Does getting stressed about that really help your life?  Take it as a win and move on.  Of course, you're allowed to stress your life for no reason, go ahead.  If feeling bad helps you, then just feel the victim your entire life.  

 

As for playing with  no opponent, that's just not the same thing and is absolutely incorrect deck testing.  Playing yourself, the only thing you test is your deck's draw and nothing else.... You don't need crucible to play against yourself, just a table.  Heck, I even play against myself in real life (until I found crucible).  It's quite easy and really helps understand the game better.  

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