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If you could only change points on 3 cards...

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Given that we expect some points revaluations in January, and we've no idea yet if those are going to be minor or dramatic... my question is: if you could only change the points on three cards, what would they be?

 

1. Han Solo (Scum Gunner) - 8pts

2. Proton Torpedoes - 14pts

3. Barrage Rockets - 10pts

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8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Given that we expect some points revaluations in January, and we've no idea yet if those are going to be minor or dramatic... my question is: if you could only change the points on three cards, what would they be?

 

1. Han Solo (Scum Gunner) - 8pts

2. Proton Torpedoes - 14pts

3. Barrage Rockets - 10pts

Those all seem apt.

I'd prefer to fix the latter two with errata personally (protons 2 dice vs shielded targets 4 vs unshielded, barrage cannot be nodded except with focus and own bullseye mod) but I don't think that would happen so points it is.

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3 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

2nd Edition or Extended?

'cos if it's Extended, I would want to burn Jonus into oblivion.
Then Jakku gunrunner and Palob, I think.

But your list seems pretty good for Hyperspace.

Well, I leave that up to the user - inevitably three cards isn't enough to hit everything you want to hit and you've got to make a tough decision what to cut out.  If it was a Hyperspace-only list I would take Barrage Rockets off and probably go rogue and make Novice Technician 2pts or something.

The big one for me is Proton Torpedoes, they're across a lot of the most problematic squads/pilots and they're a big part of enforcing the dominance I5/6 pilots because they're so **** cost-effective.

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Proton Torpedoes, Advanced Sensors, and Han Gunner.

15, 12, 8 respectively, maybe?

I could be convinced to trade Han for Marauder or even just Boba. I honestly don't mind Han at 4 points if Boba, Debris Gambit, 0-0-0, IG-88D, Marauder etc go up to eat at Boba's dice mods from the other direction. But somebody somewhere is probably mad about the theme of Han being a gunner on Boba's ship? 🤔

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The problem isn't just Han or Marauder. If that were the case we'd see Kath and Emon just as often as Boba. He's just way too cheap compared to the other Firespray pilots. Hitting the upgrades will nerf the Firespray platform as a whole, and not address internal balance at all.

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Definitely proton torps.  A number of platforms can fire them off with double mods at at high initiatives.  Between the diminished defense mods (how evades work, no autothrusters, palp being a non-factor) and half points on small base ships being a thing....you could be playing from behind on the first exchange.  It's an incredibly powerful card and is almost 2x as prominent of an upgrade as the next common one.  

Next is trick shot.  Should be 3 points and primary weapon only.  Again, I don't like the power creep on attacks.  Eventually they will have to swing the creep back over to defense and then we are back into 1.0 tick/tock offense/defense ongoing buffs.

Han Gunner.  10 points.  See above.  I don't like the added double mods, a freebie buff even if you are blocked/bumped.  

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I think Gunrunner, Proton Torps, Moldy Crow.

Gunrunners are just too much of an auto-include for scum right now and seem too good for 28 pts. I actually like the Quad Jumper a lot, but it's getting annoying seeing so many everywhere. Proton Torps also helps mitigate Redline. Advanced Sensors could help with that as an alternative, but the Torps seem a bit too good. Moldy Crow just seems a little too good.  I wouldn't want to increase Palob himself because I believe Palob simply existing in the meta has kept many other cards in check like Barrage Rockets, Juke, Defenders, and Phantoms.  If Palob were priced out, I think the Imperials would get a significant boost that might bring imbalance to the game.

(I also like the idea of dropping Novice Tech down to 2 pts.  No one wants to seriously use cards that leave things up to chance like this, but I think at 2 points, it would start popping up more and be lots of fun.)

Edited by dadocollin

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ProTorps.

Han Gunner.

Jonas.

My experience is limited but I don't see Brockets as a big problem, not as much as the thing that enables them the most.

It's a 3 dice attack that you have to pay and focus for, when the vast majority of ships have 3 dice built in. It has some natural economy but you shouldn't be getting bullseyed by the platform carrying them very often. The no range bonus is the hardest to take, but that again has plenty of counter play.

I'm running Brockets on a lone Lt Kestal atm and they really don't set the world aflame. Even if they do inspire early focused fire on her. For some reason. 

Oh noes, that ship has 3 dice, a focus and takes a green away at R3, kill it instantly....

That Jonas basically acts as constant free target locks for everyone, including himself, at 40pt, is the biggest thing. At least you have to spend the Jendon locks, and you pay more for the privilege.

I've used Han and he's just absolutely off the mental scale value.

Pro Torps is blatant.

Close but no cigar- Sloane. 

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1 hour ago, Okapi said:

The problem isn't just Han or Marauder. If that were the case we'd see Kath and Emon just as often as Boba. He's just way too cheap compared to the other Firespray pilots. Hitting the upgrades will nerf the Firespray platform as a whole, and not address internal balance at all.

That's true of half the ships in the game, though. If we're limited to three cards and not all of them... well, internal chasis balance has to take the backburner.

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Interesting that everyone on the thread so far has gone for points increases, even though there's a number of things generally agreed to be overcosted too.

I'd probably say:

Han Gunner up. By +4-6 probably. It's quite clearly a problem card, there's barely a Scum list that doesn't include it somewhere and it's an unbelievably cheap free token. 

Han Solo (Rebel pilot) down. By a big old -10 I reckon. Han just doesn't seem to be priced correctly in any form. I want Han to be on the board, I think the new turret system is an interesting mechanic, the Falcon is a beautiful model and Han's ability is really interesting. 

Trajectory Simulator up. +3 I'm thinking. Granted, this one is almost entirely personal beef. I don't like it as an option at all. I know it's not exactly meta at the moment, but it's still lurking there in the background waiting for its chance. I don't like what it does to swarms. I don't like how free of consequence it is and I don't like its inclusion in a game about arcs and positioning. 

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17 minutes ago, svelok said:

That's true of half the ships in the game, though. If we're limited to three cards and not all of them... well, internal chasis balance has to take the backburner.

True, but that still means that Boba needs an increase more than Marauder does.

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Hrm.

  1. Juke: 6 points, same as Outmaneuver.  Dice****ing is kind of annoying to play against, and the free Evades on Phantoms and Defenders really ramp the power up on Juke.  While it might be better to go after those ships directly, it also seems wise to discourage Juke in unorthodox situations, since it doesn't really ever accomplish more, it just takes the long way around.
  2. Han Solo: 8 points, same as Baze Malbus.
  3. Trick Shot: 3 points, one more than Predator, since it's easier to activate, and stronger when activated.  In all honesty, this should be Proton Torpedoes, but half the point of "top three" lists is to leave things out to start discussions.  Trick Shot is one of few nearly auto-include Talents on any ship with extra firing arcs.

Bonus: Ship Price Change: All E-Wings down 4 points, so Knave to 57 (66 minus 9 from Proton Torpedoes), for testing.  Willing to adjust it up higher after that testing is in, but I want to see the "worst case scenario" of 3x Torpedo E-Wings in action.  I'll repeat my claim that this should have been the release price, like an Open Beta Test, so we'd see and understand the high price on E-Wings if it's a problem.  Or if it's not a problem, then 57 point E-Wings are fairly priced.

50 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Marauder is fine.  People suggesting Marauder are doing some serious logical gymnastics to get to that.  The other titles should come down, arguably, but 3pts for Marauder is spot on.

At very least, there's no point to changing Marauder until after Han Gunner is fixed.  I'm open to the thought that Marauder could go up (rather than other titles go down), but it seems worth having the Han change in first, and waiting and seeing.

2 hours ago, Okapi said:

The problem isn't just Han or Marauder. If that were the case we'd see Kath and Emon just as often as Boba. He's just way too cheap compared to the other Firespray pilots. Hitting the upgrades will nerf the Firespray platform as a whole, and not address internal balance at all.

Boba is also Initiative 5 (how often do you see the lower Init aces on most ships?), and Kath and Emon have really special purpose pilot abilities that require specific list building.  Next up is Koshka Frost, and while she's kind of a budget-Boba, she's not budget enough, stress control isn't too prevalent, and she's too low Initiative to make great use of Han Gunner.  Maybe higher Init ships across the board need to have a higher premium price put on them vs lower Init and generics, but I don't think it's a unique problem to the Firespray.

Edited by theBitterFig

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For extended:

Phantom chassis up +4 points

Punnisher chassis up +4 points

Vader crew up +4 points

 

for hyperspace:

Quad jumper up +3 points

Scum Han Gunner + 5 points

Boba + 2 points

 

 

Boba is a lil under costed, but is fine overall. 

 

and whomever up there said Moldy Crow up +6 points needs to give their head a shake. MC is the only thing allowing HWKS to be viable and they are far from broken. 

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2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

One more thing: Other than Han Solo going up, or the E-Wing going down, I wouldn't even consider any change bigger than 2 points.  I'd rather see more frequent 1 and 2 point adjustments, than some other point-adjustment scheme.

that makes a lot of sense. 2 points can be a pretty big swing when looking at a squad  as a whole. +2 points each to Redline, vader crew, Whisper would just make the bid smaller for "cloak and choke", so people would start ripping juke off soontir. They may even go Deathrain instead of Redline. both are fine, but it would still be a nasty extended list.

 

 

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I really, really wish FFG would save the action-efficiency abilities (think Redline) for low initiative ships. The combination of high initiative and no-cost action efficiency is always the most problematic, and giving low-initiative pilots more action efficiency is a great way to balance them against higher-initiative pilots (Palob).

I think that almost all I5 and I6 pilots could stand a points increase, but if limited to 3 cards:

Redline +6

Vader [crew] +3

Scum Han [gunner] +3

Or, for Hyperspace:

Scum Han [gunner] +3

Proton Torpedoes +1

Tempest Squadron Pilot -1

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