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Citadel97501

Taryu-Jiai and the new dueling rules?

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Hello all, I am just wondering does Taryu-Jiai require both duelists to be participating.  The new dueling rules seem to require it, but the card itself does not, but also doesn't explicitly give permission otherwise.  

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9 hours ago, Citadel97501 said:

Hello all, I am just wondering does Taryu-Jiai require both duelists to be participating.  The new dueling rules seem to require it, but the card itself does not, but also doesn't explicitly give permission otherwise.  

Yes.

Despite the clarification from Tyler and Brad clarifying the old wording as being different, since this was not errata'd in the document? Now it will require two participating shugenja.

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2 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Yes.

Despite the clarification from Tyler and Brad clarifying the old wording as being different, since this was not errata'd in the document? Now it will require two participating shugenja.

Not really. The first part of the new timing is just for cards that use the “Initiate a Duel” phrase. Then you’re forced to follow the restrictions. 

But in this case, you skip the Initiate a Duel step and go to the Resolve Duel step because:

A duel is resolved during the successful resolution of any triggered ability that instructs players to “resolve the duel,” or that their “character challenges the opponent’s character to a [type] duel.” To resolve a duel, perform the following steps”.

 Which is the exact case of Taryū-Jiai. You must meet the pre-dash criteria of the ability, which is “During a conflict, choose a Shugenja character you control and a Shugenja character controlled by an opponent” and then you resolve the post-dash effect of the ability, which is “your character challenges your opponent's character to a glory duel. The winner of the duel's controller resolves a ring effect of his or her choice as if he or she was the attacking player.

See how that phrase match exactly the phrase in the RR? The same phrase that instructs you to resolve the duel when said phrase is used?

This is exactly what Tyler was talking about during the AMAs, all duels follow the same steps, unless the card instructs otherwise, which is this case. 

I’ll admit is not probably as clear as they wanted, at least with old cards. But when we get used to the new framework with new cards, the moment any duel card don’t follow that framework it’ll stand out on its own, and everybody will realize it’s one of the dueling exceptions. 

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15 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Not really. The first part of the new timing is just for cards that use the “Initiate a Duel” phrase. Then you’re forced to follow the restrictions. 

Incorrect. 

"When a card ability initiates a duel, part of the cost of that ability may use the phrase, 'initiate a [type] duel.' This opens the duel timing window."

Emphasis mine. The new wording is a way to initiate a duel, but not the only one. Otherwise, if "initiate a [type] duel' is now a requirement for duels, than duels printed prior to Children of the Empire are no longer duels, and that just isn't right.

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1 minute ago, twinstarbmc said:

Otherwise, if "initiate a [type] duel' is now a requirement for duels, than duels printed prior to Children of the Empire are no longer duels, and that just isn't right.

They behave as duels, because every duel prior to that follows the “character challenges the opponent’s character to a [type] duel” pattern, so you’re instructed to resolve the duel per the new timing. 

It’s just that they’re not “pure duels”. They’re abilities that happen to be resolved as a duel. 

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2 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

They behave as duels, because every duel prior to that follows the “character challenges the opponent’s character to a [type] duel” pattern, so you’re instructed to resolve the duel per the new timing. 

It’s just that they’re not “pure duels”. They’re abilities that happen to be resolved as a duel. 

Hm.... A'ight, I'll give it to ya. Especially considering that "Resolve the duel" mentions both types. 

So we're back to Taryu-Jiai being played no matter who's where, I suppose.

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Worth noting that RAW actually prevented Taryu-Jiai from working with characters not participating previously but RRG stealth edited the Duel entry to allow it.

Old RRG:

Duel

Some card abilities initiate a duel between two characters participating in a conflict. For the rules on how to resolve a duel, see “D. Duel Timing” on page 24.

 

New RRG:

Duel

Some card abilities initiate a duel between two characters. For the rules on how to initiate and resolve a duel, see “D. Duel Timing” on page 25.

 

EDIT: wording changed for clarity.

Edited by dbmeboy

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7 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Worth noting that RAW actually prevented Taryu-Jiai from working outside of a conflict previously but RRG stealth edited the Duel entry to allow it.

Except for the fact that Taryū-Jiai starts with “Action: During a conflict...”

Edit: nevermind, I realized you meant “outside of a Conflict” as in “not participating”,  not as “not a conflict taking place right now”

Edited by Tabris2k

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1 minute ago, Tabris2k said:

Except for the fact that Taryū-Jiai starts with “Action: During a conflict...”

Sorry... outside a conflict as in involving characters not participating, not outside the timing of a conflict.

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Previously, Taryu-jiai could be claimed to be falling under the Jade Rule (contradicting the duel/challenge section, which stated the duel's participants needed to be in the conflict).

The new ninja edit removes that possibility, IMO.
For a card to 'directly contradict' the RRG, so the Jade Rule comes into effect, it would need to have text similar to "...choose a character not in the conflict..."
Taryu-Jiai does not have this contradiction, so should now fall under the regular duel requirements on page 25.

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I agree there is an issue with the Initiate a Duel Step & TJ, however it is resolved by the "Resolve A Duel Step" as whenever a card says challenge to a "..." type duel, you do that instead of the initiate step.  Now we come to a problem with one of the new cards, IE "Stay Your Hand" actually can't ever be played as all current duel cards use the Resolve a Duel Step instead of the Initiate a Duel Step?

If they keep this rule in place, and don't clarify it they need to change the wording for "Stay Your Hand" to something simple, like cancel a duel before bidding honor.  

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It’s a bit of a mess. The old duels still initiate a duel, but they don’t Initiate a Duel with the rules baggage that comes with that phrase. I would have supported errata of the old duels to the new template, but oh well.

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