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Autosketch

Resistance Pilot cost evaluation

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Hi folks!

I am a little surprised by the apparent ship point evaluations of some of the new resistance pilots relative to similar ships from rebels and imperials. The ships seem better, with higher PS, and... lower point cost? Playtesting against some of these ships has been decidedly one-sided.

Take for example, Lu'lo L'ampar, at a measly 38 points, a ps5 ship with effectively 3 attack dice the moment you haven't got it in arc (and with heroic at 39, immunity to blankouts), that can rotate its guns backwards, double reposition, and take on board another EPT.

a 40pt saber sq. ace for imperials in a similar role has lower ps, no shields, no ability to rotate guns, no immunity to blankouts, and a poorer dial.
a 40pt jake farrell for rebels is also lower ps, no ability to rotate guns, no immunity to blankouts, poorer dial, and weaker guns.

were you to look at clearly weaker ships, like the TIE advanced, you can't even get to a similar PS like that until you hit 50 points, for an arguably even harder to use ability to trigger the third attack die.

Or take a large ace, like Poe:
Ps6 Poe with 4h3s, double repositioning, torpedoes, and a get out of jail free SLAM action comes in for 80 points. 

A comparable ps6 pilot for imperials in terms of flexibility would have to be supernatural Vader with afterburners, but even here he's already clocking in at 90 points before you can blink. And if you're willing to take Poe to around 90 you can kit him out with stress-dealing for locks, or pseudo-supernatural as well.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. I'm not convinced some of these ships are really sitting evenly with what we've got, but I'm pretty open to clarifications on why I might be mistaken!

Edited by Autosketch

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Well Resistance is in a tricky place because it is the only faction that doesn't have a ship that costs <29 points which is a hard cap as the most they can field is 6 ships they don't have any good filler ships either. Resistance looks like it is going to be a unique/upgrade heavy lists if there happen to come across any good meta builds. Think Rebels in Wave 3, granted there wasn't a diverse array of options to face at that time (although hyperspace might have less). So there were some decent 4 ship lists of heavy hard hitting and hard to kill ships out there. Didn't overtake the infamous TIE Swarm but that was what the Rebels had to work with and work they did.

As for the cost similarities, well they have always been close to their predecessors from the OT in terms of point cost. In 1st edition T-70 X-wings were only 3 points more yet had an improved dial, an additional shield and the boost action. Clearly more than 3 points worth of modifications. Same for TIE/FO althoug hit can be argued that the extra shield isn't worth 4 points. (1-2 is a larger step than 0-1)

Edited by Marinealver

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2 hours ago, Autosketch said:

40pt saber sq. ace for imperials in a similar role has lower ps, no shields, no ability to rotate guns, no immunity to blankouts, and a poorer dial.
a 40pt jake farrell for rebels is also lower ps, no ability to rotate guns, no immunity to blankouts, poorer dial, and weaker guns.

This part of the comparison is off, since both the ships you compare L’ulo to are really bad. Basically the only playable interceptor is Fel, and he still holds up to a 40pt L’ulo pretty well imho. The rebel A-Wing is just bad or overcosted, period. And the fact that it has no PS5 pilot is a scandal.

These ships see hardly any play. So if you took them as the gold standard for costing new ships, you would have a template for failure.

As far as i can see, they balanced Resistance Aces against actually successful pilots from other factions.

Vader vs Poe at similar cost seems pretty balanced to me, actually and the same goes for Poe vs. Luke.

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1 hour ago, ForceM said:

The rebel A-Wing is just bad or overcosted, period. And the fact that it has no PS5 pilot is a scandal

I cannot agree more. I just love the A-wing, and since 2.0 is there I really cannot count the games where I lost trying to fly them. The ship is supposed to have "sensitive controls and high maneuverability" and therefore should be given to "the most talented pilots" (Green Squadron Ace pilot card). And yet the game seems to force me to use these ships as low-initiative blockers...
I really expect the price of RZ-1 A-Wings to go down, and I really expect some good I5 (or I6) pilots for them in the re-release. 

Edited by rhetor

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12 minutes ago, rhetor said:

I cannot agree more. I just love the A-wing, and since 2.0 is there I really cannot count the games where I lost trying to fly them. The ship is supposed to have "sensitive controls and high maneuverability" and therefore should be given to "the most talented pilots" (Green Squadron Ace pilot card). And yet the game seems to force me to use these ships as low-initiative blockers...

The best success i have had with one, was with Intimidation Arvel, when i tried to replace Sabine with him.

He did decent(ish) when he crashed into a support Lambdashuttle with Sloan and permitted me to delete it in a turn. It was poorly positioned, though. But then, Sabine might have easily done better over the course of the whole game, where her incredible maneuverability comes into play.

Arvel might actually become worth it if they reduce him by a few points and give him a second talent slot.

Jake is just horrible as a too expensive I4 in a I5+ game.

Tried the I1 blockers too. They did their job and blocked once or twice, but evaporated afterwards, and having that for 30 points when you can have an actual threat on the table for a mere 10 points more is just a waste in my eyes.

Edited by ForceM

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50 minutes ago, ForceM said:

The best success i have had with one, was with Intimidation Arvel, when i tried to replace Sabine with him.

He did decent(ish) when he crashed into a support Lambdashuttle with Sloan and permitted me to delete it in a turn. It was poorly positioned, though. But then, Sabine might have easily done better over the course of the whole game, where her incredible maneuverability comes into play.

Arvel might actually become worth it if they reduce him by a few points and give him a second talent slot.

Jake is just horrible as a too expensive I4 in a I5+ game.

Tried the I1 blockers too. They did their job and blocked once or twice, but evaporated afterwards, and having that for 30 points when you can have an actual threat on the table for a mere 10 points more is just a waste in my eyes.

What would be a fair cost for Jake, in your opinion? And by extension, how would you price the v1 pilots?

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40 minutes ago, Okapi said:

What would be a fair cost for Jake, in your opinion? And by extension, how would you price the v1 pilots?

36 for Jake. 33 for Arvel. 32 for Greens. All of them get a second talent slot.

28 for Phoenixes.

Edit: to answer your other question, Seventh Sister at maybe 45ish. Everyone else is fine. (Take this with a small grain of salt, because I think that most initiative 5-6 pilots should go up a bit, so me thinking that the Grand Inquisitor should stay where he is actually means that I think he should come down a few points relative to other i5/6 aces.)

Edited by Maui.

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5 hours ago, ForceM said:

This part of the comparison is off, since both the ships you compare L’ulo to are really bad. Basically the only playable interceptor is Fel, and he still holds up to a 40pt L’ulo pretty well imho. The rebel A-Wing is just bad or overcosted, period. And the fact that it has no PS5 pilot is a scandal.

I think Sabers are solid in the right list. 

I'm guessing Lulo has the same FFG logic that applied to Sabine, Zeta Leader, Wampa, etc.  Cheap, low durability 3 dice attacks are fine if you're limited to one of those things.  That's what Lulo is.  Basically, they can err on the side of too cheap, and it's not game breaking. 

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4 hours ago, Maui. said:

36 for Jake. 33 for Arvel. 32 for Greens. All of them get a second talent slot.

28 for Phoenixes.

Edit: to answer your other question, Seventh Sister at maybe 45ish. Everyone else is fine. (Take this with a small grain of salt, because I think that most initiative 5-6 pilots should go up a bit, so me thinking that the Grand Inquisitor should stay where he is actually means that I think he should come down a few points relative to other i5/6 aces.)

You think the I3, 1 force Inquisitor is worth 4 points more than Jake? Granted, they can get force + evade, but is that really that much better than boost + focus at a higher initiative?

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58 minutes ago, Okapi said:

You think the I3, 1 force Inquisitor is worth 4 points more than Jake? Granted, they can get force + evade, but is that really that much better than boost + focus at a higher initiative?

Force is better than a linked red boost. It is basically a free Calculate action, that you get even if blocked, stressed, or gone through a rock.

So I think FFG is, for once, quite right on the price of a Force point.

However, TAPs may be a little bit overcosted.

Edited by Giledhil

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10 hours ago, ForceM said:

This part of the comparison is off, since both the ships you compare L’ulo to are really bad. Basically the only playable interceptor is Fel, and he still holds up to a 40pt L’ulo pretty well imho. The rebel A-Wing is just bad or overcosted, period. And the fact that it has no PS5 pilot is a scandal.

These ships see hardly any play. So if you took them as the gold standard for costing new ships, you would have a template for failure.

As far as i can see, they balanced Resistance Aces against actually successful pilots from other factions.

Vader vs Poe at similar cost seems pretty balanced to me, actually and the same goes for Poe vs. Luke.

Excuse me, sir! Sloane's 2 interceptors mingling with 2 strikers would like a word! Yeah, a striker is better than a squint, but mixing the two add some unpredictability. A squint still has decent value.

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58 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

Force is better than a linked red boost. It is basically a free Calculate action, that you get even if blocked, stressed, or gone through a rock.

So I think FFG is, for once, quite right on the price of a Force point.

However, TAPs may be a little bit overcosted.

That predictive shot tho.

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AND(Talli, L'ulo, OR(Rey, Poe)) is fun and all, but probably not close to top-tier.  Fun for sure, but just has not enough punch and too many vulnerabilities to go the distance.

I mean, can you give me a take-all-comers, super-threatening-looking Rebel list or archetype?  I've been racking my brain trying to find the glue and just can't.  Jess and three Crack Shot Black Squadron Aces?  Something with Finch and L'ulo?  Nothing really stands out as far as gobs of free actions like the dominant Imperial/Scum squads have right now.

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2 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Force is better than a linked red boost. It is basically a free Calculate action, that you get even if blocked, stressed, or gone through a rock.

So I think FFG is, for once, quite right on the price of a Force point.

However, TAPs may be a little bit overcosted.

It's not linked. Jake can boost/roll and focus without stress, as that's his pilot ability. He can also do an action (or two, if he decides to barrel roll and focus) and then perform a red boost, handing out a focus to a friendly at R1.

Edited by Okapi

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10 minutes ago, Okapi said:

It's not linked. Jake can boost/roll and focus without stress, as that's his pilot ability. He can also do an action (or two, if he decides to barrel roll and focus) and then perform a red boost, handing out a focus to a friendly at R1.

My bad, I was comparing with the A-wing chassis, not Jake's ability.
Anyway, Jake's ability still is conditionnal, when Force point is just an automatic gain, in any situation.

NB : note I'm not saying Inquisitor isn't overcosted, but the point difference has some sense IMO.

Edited by Giledhil

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'Wave 1' was really FFG's beta test. As much as they could argue it was as they intended, they could never accurately account for the player base as a whole in their alpha play-testing phase. They were bound to get stuff wrong and they did. They overcosted things like A-wings and TIE Aggressors, and undercosted things like TIE Bombers and Punishers. They thoroughly misjudged large base ships in general. Its not an excuse, but the cracks the playtesters couldn't find were bound to be found when the game was released to the masses. 

This is all to say I don't think they actually undercosted anything in the sequel factions, rather they've evaluated costings with this new information provided by the 3 months in the wild the game has had. It makes sense to me that they would re-adjust points with each new wave (which could still happen I guess, we still have a few days before full release), and I feel like they're releasing these sequel faction points with the first re-balance in mind, whenever that actually happens. 

Of course this does make them more enticing right now from a sales stand point, and it is a possibility that this was their intent. I do think the mining guild TIE is little on low side point wise considering its faction and the ships relative use in other factions. That may be to sell ships, or it may be due to the fact that they've decided the Imperial TIE fighter ace pilots are overcosted for example. I don't know what the actual deal is, but I would like to think its an acknowledgement of where changes need to be made in terms of ship archetypes in the other factions. 

There are other factors; like @Marinealver has mentioned like the Resistance not having a baby fighter at all, that need to be taken into account. This is also evident in how adaptable the TIE/sf is in the list building stage. The FO don't have a lot of different fighters so the TIE/sf is configurable to fill a few different roles at different point values.

Keep calm and carry on, at least until Thursday. We can all riot if need be once we all have the ships in our hands. Hopefully we might get an article tomorrow that sheds some light on the matter.

Edited by BVRCH

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22 hours ago, SOTL said:

The power creep in the new factions has to be enormous to make people not just sit and play Wave 1 forever.  Wait until you see the Jedi and Droids, they have to better again!

I sense some negativity there.

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37 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Or realism?

Why not give FFG a chance instead of just assuming the worst? They haven't even released one points update yet.

Also, if you really believe that is what is going on why are you still here? Why play the game? Why give money to people who you believe are just out to screw you?

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