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paganeagle2001

Can these be used for keys?

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On 12/7/2018 at 6:28 AM, paganeagle2001 said:

Just a quick question.

i have some dice bases that I want to use as keys. Then use the red, blue yellow dice as the forged keys.

would thus break the no dice rule?

i want to paint the bases as well.

 

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Functionally, yes. RAW, no. However, it would be a very slim number of events that would say no I suspect.

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For what it's worth, from the tournament regulations:

Typically, players use the cardboard tokens included in official product as indicators. However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification, and their purpose of use is clear to both players. The marshal is responsible for determining the legality of an indicator and its reasonable use during a match if objected to by its owner’s opponent. NOTE: The use of dice of any kind is not permitted in KeyForge Organized Play.

Legal Products Players may use only official KeyForge components in tournament play, with the following exceptions for thirdparty replacements: • Tokens that do not obscure card information • Power/Stun cards (or tokens) that are clearly distinguishable • Key tokens in red, blue, and yellow that have distinct, easily-discernable differences between their “A” and “B” sides • A chain tracker card and its associated token, so long as the former is clearly legible and does not omit any information compared to the official component.

As you are using them in the capacity of tokens.  They are can not be accidentally modified as their facing does not matter.  They are in Red, Blue and Yellow.  They are discernible in that they are only in a forged state when they are in the holder.  They fit all the criteria of being legal components, except of course for the bit they highlighted in bold (emphasis is theirs).  

Of course this brings us back to the start.  I thing any rational person would agree these fit the spirit of the rules in every possible way, and most marshals should allow them, even at a premier tournament.  But if I were you I'd bring a backup in case some one decides to get overly rules lawyerly and ban them on the basis of them being dice even if they are not being used for their facings at all.  

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So the reason dice are banned is because they are not sufficiently resistant to accidental modification? I assume spin down counters would have the same problem, then. (Or worse; it's easier to knock over a twenty sided spin down than a six sided die).

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20 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I am an Ork, sir, not a Troll. We space-fungoid types have very different senses of humor, but in this case I'm being quite earnest. Calling them something different is well and beside the point, since they are functionally different. Or do official Magic tournaments bar them from use for no good reason? 

Who cares what mtg does

This isnt mtg

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1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

Who cares what mtg does

This isnt mtg

Putting your fingers into your ears and shouting "NAH NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU" every time someone else makes a comparison to another card game isn't going to help this card game grow. I care about that, and I presume others do too. If this conversation isn't of value to you, feel free to participate elsewhere, or at least make an attempt to control your bias. 

In this particular instance the point is valid, since spin-down counters were specifically designed, produced, and marketed by WotC for Magic. Hence, the way those are implemented as a tool (i.e. not a die), in that game or others, is relevant here. 😀    

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12 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Putting your fingers into your ears and shouting "NAH NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU" every time someone else makes a comparison to another card game isn't going to help this card game grow. I care about that, and I presume others do too. If this conversation isn't of value to you, feel free to participate elsewhere, or at least make an attempt to control your bias. 

In this particular instance the point is valid, since spin-down counters were specifically designed, produced, and marketed by WotC for Magic. Hence, the way those are implemented as a tool (i.e. not a die), in that game or others, is relevant here. 😀    

MTG doesn’t ban the use of dice, KeyForge does.

How’s that for a comparison?

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10 minutes ago, Derrault said:

MTG doesn’t ban the use of dice, KeyForge does.

How’s that for a comparison?

Don't go all sensible like that, it may confuse and confound...

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14 minutes ago, Derrault said:

MTG doesn’t ban the use of dice, KeyForge does.

How’s that for a comparison?

MTG doesn't ban the use of dice, correct. It bans the use of spin-down counters as dice, because they don't function the same. Hence (again) why the ban on dice in KeyForge doesn't currently affect spin-down counters. 

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13 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

MTG doesn't ban the use of dice, correct. It bans the use of spin-down counters as dice, because they don't function the same. Hence (again) why the ban on dice in KeyForge doesn't currently affect spin-down counters. 

What’s a spin down counter? Is it a wheel that you spin?

I’ve only ever heard of spindown dice. Which are dice that you turn to the facing of your hit point total or whatever. Those would be exactly what the rule is banning. 

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2 minutes ago, Derrault said:

What’s a spin down counter? Is it a wheel that you spin?

I’ve only ever heard of spindown dice. Which are dice that you turn to the facing of your hit point total or whatever. Those would be exactly what the rule is banning. 

First hit on Google should be informative for you.

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The rule says you may only use indicators that "are resistant to accidental modification." Dice fall under a blanket ban because they fall foul of this. So spin downs have the same problem, and also cannot be used.

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That's an awfully subjective litmus test. If I brush a bead off of a card, or drop a key on the floor, is that "resistant to accidental modification"? 

I've legitimately never had a problem with spin-down counters being knocked around. I wonder who all of these clumsy card players are that are trying to spoil my fun. 🤔

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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9 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

First hit on Google should be informative for you.

First hit on Google is the suggestion “Spindown Counter Dice”.

Yes, very helpful for indicating it’s a die. Also, based purely on the marketing of the product, that is clearly the case. 

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https://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1505

My first hit, and pretty much the same for every other business selling them. Didn't see anyone marketing them as rollable dice, but then it's been a while since I hung with the D&D crowd. 

Did you guys know that genuine dice are supposed to have opposite faces add up to 1 + the total number of sides on that die? 

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15 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

That's an awfully subjective litmus test. If I brush a bead off of a card, or drop a key on the floor, is that "resistant to accidental modification"? 

I've legitimately never had a problem with spin-down counters being knocked around. I wonder who all of these clumsy card players are that are trying to spoil my fun. 🤔

I haven't personally either, but hey, their game, their rules. I've been using dice in casual play because I have a bunch of dice, but don't have many counters, unless I dig out my old Pokémon glass beads.

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8 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1505

My first hit, and pretty much the same for every other business selling them. Didn't see anyone marketing them as rollable dice, but then it's been a while since I hung with the D&D crowd. 

Did you guys know that genuine dice are supposed to have opposite faces add up to 1 + the total number of sides on that die? 

first, that 1 + the total number of side is wrong.  That only applies to most 6 sided dice, and all dice used in casinos for craps.  
second, per the Keyforge tournament reference (which I already quoted above): 

Tokens and Status Cards Tokens are representations of information about the game or game state. The presence of tokens is marked by one or more indicators. Indicators may also be used to represent multiple tokens, or other open or derived information. Typically, players use the cardboard tokens included in official product as indicators. However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification, and their purpose of use is clear to both players. The marshal is responsible for determining the legality of an indicator and its reasonable use during a match if objected to by its owner’s opponent. NOTE: The use of dice of any kind is not permitted in KeyForge Organized Play. Similar to tokens, Power and Stun status cards are used as indicators for certain information throughout the course of the game. Players may choose to use other items (except dice) to represent these as well, and once again the marshal is responsible for determining the substitutes’ legality and reasonable use.

Emphasis is mine.  But your "spindown counter" is not resistant to accidental modification,  A bump of the table could change it's facing.  That is what FFG is trying to prevent.  So even if we agreed that a spindown counter is not a die (I don't, it is in every functional way that matters.) it still does not fit the criteria set fourth by the regulations.  

Please do not come back with "well if I upend the table your tokens would go everywhere and that is also accidental modification" or some other silliness.  A 20 sided polyhedron of any name if much easier to disturb than tokens which are separated on opposite side of a play area.  And if my tokens get jumbled up and put back, they are still all of the same value. That WotC defines them differently does not have any bearing in the discussion.  I don't know Magic tournament rules.  But each company is allowed to make the rules for their game as they see fit.  If FFG says no red tokens, it wouldn't matter that you can use them in Magic.  It also wouldn't that you consider the token to be more of a 'burgundy' and that by your definition it fits.   

... though to be honest, I am certain you know all of this, and continue on this crusade to amuse yourself by annoying others.

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WotC doesn't just make the rules, they make the product. Them branding it as one thing is no more silly than other people trying to brand it as something else; they say it's not a functional die, and I agree. And however much the two of us may disagree, it's genuinely poor form to insist that I can only argue in a manner conducive to your sensibilities. If I want to play at reductio ad absurdum, well, that's my prerogative, and you're welcome to call me out for it. 

To be fair, however, I don't think it's ridiculous or extreme to point out that all of the materials FFG provides are prone to accidental manipulation, no table flipping required. To make yet another comparison to [that other game], at higher level events both players are supposed to use pen and paper to track each other's life totals, because that's the best and most certain way to avoid manipulation - accidental or otherwise. If what FFG really wants to do is prevent abuse of their cardboard gimmicks, perhaps they should stop printing so many of the darn things.     

By the way, that last sentence of yours? Totally unnecessary. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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6 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

WotC doesn't just make the rules, they make the product. Them branding it as one thing is no more silly than other people trying to brand it as something else; they say it's not a functional die, and I agree. And however much the two of us may disagree, it's genuinely poor form to insist that I can only argue in a manner conducive to your sensibilities. If I want to play at reductio ad absurdum, well, that's my prerogative, and you're welcome to call me out for it. 

To be fair, however, I don't think it's ridiculous or extreme to point out that all of the materials FFG provides are prone to accidental manipulation, no table flipping required. To make yet another comparison to [that other game], at higher level events both players are supposed to use pen and paper to track each other's life totals, because that's the best and most certain way to avoid manipulation - accidental or otherwise. If what FFG really wants to do is prevent abuse of their cardboard gimmicks, perhaps they should stop printing so many of the darn things.     

By the way, that last sentence of yours? Totally unnecessary. 

They make the product?  Wow, yeah, there is obviously no incentive for them to insist they are functionally different and that only their version is tournament legal then.  

I am not saying you can only "argue to my sensibilities" but you are claiming you believe that a 20 sided polyhedron with individually numbered sides is functionally different than a 20 sided die because it is called something different by the manufacturer, and the number are not printed in the same order as other dice.  Yes, I get that this die makes counting up and down from 20 easier with it's number placement easier.  But I could still roll it on the table and not know what number would come up.  It still has the geometric proportions of a 20 sided die which are notoriously easy to roll.  It still is being used for the number facings to represent a value.  I don't care if the person who sold it says it is their great aunt Girtrude.  It is in all ways that matter in regards to KeyFogre a die, and thus will not be allowed not mater how much you shout "spindown counter" at us.  

"Don't say I would respond with 'tokens could be moved around too!' ... but tokens could be moved around too!"  The point is if my sleeve catches a token, it is not going to turn that token into 5 tokens.  And my opponent can't say "Um you bumped the table when you shifted your chair, and your 3 tokens there turned into 6." 

As for your giant SDT, that also breaks the rule of obscuring significant portions of the card should I capture some of your aember.   Also forbidden by the rules.  

And the person who has responded to multiples of my posts with "mi mi mi 😢" (which I assume to be some kind of insult?) is saying my last sentence is totally unnecessary? ha!

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31 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

They make the product?  Wow, yeah, there is obviously no incentive for them to insist they are functionally different and that only their version is tournament legal then.  

They hand them out like candy in almost every sealed package, and at every pre-release event. There's no money on the line for them to compete with actual d20s. I think you also somehow missed the fact that their own product is banned, not the other way around.

 

31 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I am not saying you can only "argue to my sensibilities" but you are claiming you believe that a 20 sided polyhedron with individually numbered sides is functionally different than a 20 sided die because it is called something different by the manufacturer, and the number are not printed in the same order as other dice.  Yes, I get that this die makes counting up and down from 20 easier with it's number placement easier.  But I could still roll it on the table and not know what number would come up.  It still has the geometric proportions of a 20 sided die which are notoriously easy to roll.  It still is being used for the number facings to represent a value.  I don't care if the person who sold it says it is their great aunt Girtrude.  It is in all ways that matter in regards to KeyFogre a die, and thus will not be allowed not mater how much you shout "spindown counter" at us. 

That is not what I am arguing, that is what you are arguing. I've already outlined how they are, in fact, functionally different. And yes, you most definitely did just tell me how to argue (or not argue, as the case may be).

31 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

"Don't say I would respond with 'tokens could be moved around too!' ... but tokens could be moved around too!"  The point is if my sleeve catches a token, it is not going to turn that token into 5 tokens.  And my opponent can't say "Um you bumped the table when you shifted your chair, and your 3 tokens there turned into 6."

You made the mistake of assuming that I would respond with an extreme counter-example. Clearly, I did not. I've bumped many an X-Wing base in my day, but I've never seen a spin-down counter get "accidentally manipulated" on the level that people here, or FFG, are suggesting is possible. 

31 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

And the person who has responded to multiples of my posts with "mi mi mi 😢" (which I assume to be some kind of insult?) is saying my last sentence is totally unnecessary? ha!

You perceive me to be a bear. You are upset that I act like a bear, and yet you continue to poke the bear. No, not necessary or productive. 

I'm sorry that my Orkish sense of humor holds no appeal for you, and that your childhood was somehow deprived the benefit of Jim Henson's wonderful creations. Can we go back to being civil now anyways?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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2 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

MTG doesn't ban the use of dice, correct. It bans the use of spin-down counters as dice, because they don't function the same. Hence (again) why the ban on dice in KeyForge doesn't currently affect spin-down counters. 

Hang on, hang on. You're implying that the Keyforge tournament rules allows something specifically because the Magic tournament rules do not? How does that even work? Isn't this comparing apples and oranges?

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10 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

You perceive me to be a bear. You are upset that I act like a bear, and yet you continue to poke the bear. No, not necessary or productive. 

I'm sorry that my Orkish sense of humor holds no appeal for you, and that your childhood was somehow deprived the benefit of Jim Henson's wonderful creations. Can we go back to being civil now anyways?

You perceive yourself as an orc.  I perceive you as a troll.  I expect you to act like a troll.  I treat you like a troll.  You act offended at being called out as a troll.  Yet continue to troll by insulting me then immediately ask if we can be civil.  

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Just now, twinstarbmc said:

Hang on, hang on. You're implying that the Keyforge tournament rules allows something specifically because the Magic tournament rules do not? How does that even work? Isn't this comparing apples and oranges?

They allow something specifically because that is not what is being banned. 

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