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theagesthrough56

Guarded keyword and empty encounter deck

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What happens if I play a player card with the guarded keyword (e.g., The Arkenstone) and the encounter deck is empty? Since the encounter deck only gets reshuffled during the quest phase, my interpretation is that I get the card for free. I will reshuffle the encounter deck because I guess it’s unfair, but what’s the correct ruling?

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I cannot imagine this holds true. Most times the encounter deck does it, it asks you to shuffle in the discard pile. I dont have the guarded rules in front of me but I'd bet dollars to donuts you shuffle the discard in. 

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You shuffle the discard back automatically only during the questing phase. Otherwise you don’t do it (e.g., no more shadow card, you don’t reshuffle). But the guarded keyword might be an exception, but it isn’t written in the rules for guarded keyword on player cards.

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Page 2 of The Wilds of Rhovanion Rule sheet states that if the encounter deck is ever empty when resolving the Guarded (X) keyword to shuffle the encounter discard pile into the encounter deck and finish resolving it.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/hallofbeorn-resources/Images/LotR/Rules/The-Wilds-of-Rhovanion/Rules-02.jpg

Edited by stimpaksam

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2 hours ago, GrandSpleen said:

So how exactly do you resolve he effect if the type of your card does not exist in the encounter deck ?

I have the feeling if we ask Caleb he might say that then we cannot play that card since the Guarded (X) is kinda of a cost of the card.

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Heh. Seriously though. I had this thought long ago when playing Fog on the Barrow-downs.  There are not many enemies in that deck. You could feasibly trap them all or have them all in play in a 2-player game.  So then, when you advance to a barrow, you have to discard cards until you get an enemy. No enemies in the deck? Infinitely discard and reshuffle.  Guarded (X) creates the same problem.  Bring Sting to a quest with no enemies in the deck (Battle of Lake-Town), or few enemies but get them all in play (Lonely Mountain, We Must Away Ere Break of Day).  Then what? Sting needs an enemy.

I think I'll submit this one for clarification.

Edit: submitted. I remembered, after looking at the cards, that the Fog on the Barrow-downs scenario is OK. When you reveal a barrow, you immediately end your quest phase. Then you have to discard cards. If the encounter deck empties, I guess it won't refill (although: other players may still be at the quest phase, so how does that work!).  But there are others. In the Sands of Harad box, there are two treacheries that behave in this way, and those will come out during the quest phase. One for enemies (Nowhere to Hide) and one for locations (Mirage).

Edited by GrandSpleen

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1 hour ago, GrandSpleen said:

Heh. Seriously though. I had this thought long ago when playing Fog on the Barrow-downs.  There are not many enemies in that deck. You could feasibly trap them all or have them all in play in a 2-player game.  So then, when you advance to a barrow, you have to discard cards until you get an enemy. No enemies in the deck? Infinitely discard and reshuffle.  Guarded (X) creates the same problem.  Bring Sting to a quest with no enemies in the deck (Battle of Lake-Town), or few enemies but get them all in play (Lonely Mountain, We Must Away Ere Break of Day).  Then what? Sting needs an enemy.

I think I'll submit this one for clarification.

Edit: submitted. I remembered, after looking at the cards, that the Fog on the Barrow-downs scenario is OK. When you reveal a barrow, you immediately end your quest phase. Then you have to discard cards. If the encounter deck empties, I guess it won't refill (although: other players may still be at the quest phase, so how does that work!).  But there are others. In the Sands of Harad box, there are two treacheries that behave in this way, and those will come out during the quest phase. One for enemies (Nowhere to Hide) and one for locations (Mirage).

That's kind of interesting I always forget about no enemies in the battle for laketown.  It seems like when issues like this come up you just use your common sense, but it is interesting to consider the cases you bring up. 

I do agree that guarded is a cost and if you cannot fulfill it you cannot play the card 

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9 hours ago, stimpaksam said:

Page 2 of The Wilds of Rhovanion Rule sheet states that if the encounter deck is ever empty when resolving the Guarded (X) keyword to shuffle the encounter discard pile into the encounter deck and finish resolving it.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/hallofbeorn-resources/Images/LotR/Rules/The-Wilds-of-Rhovanion/Rules-02.jpg

Thanks. I was looking up the guarded keyword rule insert for The Black Serpent, and in this insert they don’t mention the reshuffling, but in this case the rule was for the encounter cards, so I got confused.

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Just now, player3351457 said:

Is there any way to "cheat" a guarded card into play? Vilya or galadriel come to mind.

The rules say that "when a Guarded (X) card enters play....", which covers both "play" and "put into play", so even with Vilya or Galadriel you would still have to find a card to guard it.

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2 hours ago, Alonewolf87 said:

The rules say that "when a Guarded (X) card enters play....", which covers both "play" and "put into play", so even with Vilya or Galadriel you would still have to find a card to guard it.

And yet this makes me think guarded isn't part of "the cost", as much as it is an effect of the card.  It may only apply to Sting and a handful of quests, but until they errata it I'd say no enemy means ignore guarded.

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If you're got a situation where all enemies in the encounter deck are in play, you wouldn't know that necessarily.  So you don't even know that "you can't pay the cost."  How far do you go? Discard until the deck is empty, reshuffle once, then discard it entirely again (necessarily shuffling it a 2nd time)?  That would ensure that you've looked at every card in a game-legal way.

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And then there is the Master Ironsmith.  It tells you to attach to the hero.  The guarded keyword and this game text straight contradict each other, unless it attaches to one then the other.  In that case which would go first?  I personally think I am going to avoid that situation all together.

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35 minutes ago, JusticeLizard said:

And then there is the Master Ironsmith.  It tells you to attach to the hero.  The guarded keyword and this game text straight contradict each other, unless it attaches to one then the other.  In that case which would go first?  I personally think I am going to avoid that situation all together.

10 to 1 that Caleb will rule the Guardex (X) overrides the Master Ironsmith ability.

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1 hour ago, GrandSpleen said:

If you're got a situation where all enemies in the encounter deck are in play, you wouldn't know that necessarily.  So you don't even know that "you can't pay the cost."  How far do you go? Discard until the deck is empty, reshuffle once, then discard it entirely again (necessarily shuffling it a 2nd time)?  That would ensure that you've looked at every card in a game-legal way.

Well, if you came into that situation, you would have to reshuffle the deck for all eternity.;)

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58 minutes ago, Alonewolf87 said:

10 to 1 that Caleb will rule the Guardex (X) overrides the Master Ironsmith ability.

If I was forced to guess how it works I would say the same, but the Ironsmith doesn't say play or put into play.  It only says attach.

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2 hours ago, JusticeLizard said:

And then there is the Master Ironsmith.  It tells you to attach to the hero.  The guarded keyword and this game text straight contradict each other, unless it attaches to one then the other.  In that case which would go first?  I personally think I am going to avoid that situation all together.

There is an extant ruling on this. Essentially, you cannot cheat around Guarded (X), although I suppose the card is attached for an instant before the guard yoinks it away:

 

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47 minutes ago, Amicus Draconis said:

Well, if you came into that situation, you would have to reshuffle the deck for all eternity.;)

My opinion on this is that a game that cannot be won due to forced endless reshuffling is essentially lost.

It is somewhat akin to that funny situation in Encounter in Amon Din: 

 

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25 minutes ago, sappidus said:

There is an extant ruling on this. Essentially, you cannot cheat around Guarded (X), although I suppose the card is attached for an instant before the guard yoinks it away:

 

Seems arbitrary to say "It just always works" no matter the situation, but it is definitive which is nice.  I suppose since it has to get guarded that also answers the Sting + no enemy in deck question.  The card just simply couldn't be played.  Maybe its like when a unique character tries to enter play with another card with that name already there.

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With a unique you can't actually put it in play.  With a guarded card, you put in play *before* you know if it can possibly be satisfied.  So what happens if it can't?  get your money back and put the card in your hand?

I'm OK with a guarded card not being guarded if it *can't* be guarded.

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Here is another weird question about guarded cards. The hobgoblin guy in the Wilds box makes you discard a card from your deck and attach it to him. What if that card is a unique card which is already in play? The guarded card is “in play” right? Does that mean the encounter deck’s attempt to bring it into play “fails” and nothing gets attached, or what?

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Also here is the reply about Sting  and an encounter deck with no enemies. Prepare to be pleased :

 

In most cases, when you are instructed to discard cards from the encounter deck until you discard the appropriate card, you will reshuffle and continue discarding until you find that card. If you go through the entire deck, and there is no viable target in the deck at all, then you resolve the card to the best of your ability. In the case of Sting, you would immediately take control of it.

Cheers,

Caleb

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7 hours ago, GrandSpleen said:

Also here is the reply about Sting  and an encounter deck with no enemies. Prepare to be pleased :

 

In most cases, when you are instructed to discard cards from the encounter deck until you discard the appropriate card, you will reshuffle and continue discarding until you find that card. If you go through the entire deck, and there is no viable target in the deck at all, then you resolve the card to the best of your ability. In the case of Sting, you would immediately take control of it.

Cheers,

Caleb

Wow, unexpected.

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