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1-2 Turn Wins

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On 12/5/2018 at 9:44 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Nepenthe seed is not an action so it needs to be set up a turn in advance.

Opening turn win is possible though. Hand is Full Moon or Hunting Witch, 2 Dust Pixies, Chota Hazel, 2 Nature's Calls. Play FM or HW, play 2 Pixies for 3 each, play chota for 1 getting up to 7, lose one and forge, NC to take chota and the Pixies back into hand, repeat.

there are literally 7 decks in the entire world that can do this right now...just sayin'

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:29 AM, debiant said:

1-2 Turn Hand Lock:

Restringuntus is powerful, and a lot of people hate this card. So. let's make it more powerful.  You don't necessarily need all of the pieces to pull this off. If they have a single faction in hand you only really need two of them. The more pieces you have, the more certain victory becomes. 

Card List

Primary:

  • A Fair Game
  • Restringuntus
  • Mind Control

Secondary:

  • Control the Weak
  • Tocsin

Tertiary:

  • Library of the Damned
  • Pit Lord
  • Additional Mind Control
  • Arise!

 

1 Turn Win:

Most Popular:

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Restringuntus

Most Likely to Succeed:

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Mind Control
  3. Restringuntus

 

2 Turn Win:

If you play A Fair Game and have the primary and secondary cards, this may be a better play:

Turn 1 (You don't want to play Mind Control because your opponent draw a card)

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Succubus
  3. Play Tocsin
  4. Control the Weak

Turn 2: 

  1. Mind Control
  2. Reap with Tocsin
  3. Restringuntus

 

 

there is no card called mind control in the game.  do you mean mind barb?  If so I don't see how this guarantees they have a hand of a single faction on turn 1.  how does this lock them down.  They just need to remove the creature with the other faction.

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51 minutes ago, Ebucklin said:

there is no card called mind control in the game.  do you mean mind barb?  If so I don't see how this guarantees they have a hand of a single faction on turn 1.  how does this lock them down.  They just need to remove the creature with the other faction.

With regards to Restringuntus combos, it is usually "Control the Weak", so it could be a translation issue here.

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On 12/10/2018 at 8:29 AM, debiant said:

1-2 Turn Hand Lock:

Restringuntus is powerful, and a lot of people hate this card. So. let's make it more powerful.  You don't necessarily need all of the pieces to pull this off. If they have a single faction in hand you only really need two of them. The more pieces you have, the more certain victory becomes. 

Card List

Primary:

  • A Fair Game
  • Restringuntus
  • Mind Control

Secondary:

  • Control the Weak
  • Tocsin

Tertiary:

  • Library of the Damned
  • Pit Lord
  • Additional Mind Control
  • Arise!

 

1 Turn Win:

Most Popular:

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Restringuntus

Most Likely to Succeed:

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Mind Control
  3. Restringuntus

 

2 Turn Win:

If you play A Fair Game and have the primary and secondary cards, this may be a better play:

Turn 1 (You don't want to play Mind Control because your opponent draw a card)

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Succubus
  3. Play Tocsin
  4. Control the Weak

Turn 2: 

  1. Mind Control
  2. Reap with Tocsin
  3. Restringuntus

 

 

What is the point of making arguments based on cards that don't exist? Pretty sure this guy is just trolling at this point.

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3 hours ago, Krashwire said:

What is the point of making arguments based on cards that don't exist? Pretty sure this guy is just trolling at this point.

The card is Mind Barb; I will fix it. Chill out. This is my thread to begin with, and there's been a fair bit of discussion here without people being jerks.

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:29 AM, debiant said:

1-2 Turn Hand Lock:

Restringuntus is powerful, and a lot of people hate this card. So. let's make it more powerful.  You don't necessarily need all of the pieces to pull this off. If they have a single faction in hand you only really need two of them. The more pieces you have, the more certain victory becomes. 

Card List

Primary:

  • A Fair Game
  • Restringuntus
  • Mind Control

Secondary:

  • Control the Weak
  • Tocsin

Tertiary:

  • Library of the Damned
  • Pit Lord
  • Additional Mind Control
  • Arise!

 

1 Turn Win:

Most Popular:

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Restringuntus

Most Likely to Succeed:

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Mind Control
  3. Restringuntus

 

2 Turn Win:

If you play A Fair Game and have the primary and secondary cards, this may be a better play:

Turn 1 (You don't want to play Mind Control because your opponent draw a card)

  1. A Fair Game
  2. Succubus
  3. Play Tocsin
  4. Control the Weak

Turn 2: 

  1. Mind Control
  2. Reap with Tocsin
  3. Restringuntus

 

 

I still don't get this as a 1 or 2 turn win.  If your opponent draws a hand of only 1 house, sure, a fair game, you see the hand, you use Restringuntus and lock it down.  But you are using Mind Barb (it does matter that you were calling it mind control, I couldn't figure out which card you meant for life of me) and then Tocsin.  That will cycle there hand for them, meaning you are helping them break the lock.  I don't understand the logic there that it is helping you win.  If their hand is not all 1 card you are, I assume, trying to draw out the cards that are not the locked house.  So if you locked down Brobnar, in  a hand that is mostly brobnar, you are hoping to Tocsin out the mars or logos (or whatever) but if the hand is mostly the restrained house, odds are you will pull that house and free up more space for other cards to be drawn.

I will agree yes, IF you have both Restringuntus and A Fair game in hand (there are 274 decks that have both of these cards), and IF your opponent had a hand of all 1 house (Succubus would up the odds, but we are down to 108 decks with all 3) and IF the card you pulled for a fair game was not the house they have in hand causing their hand to reset... You could lock them into a state in which they could no longer play a card.

And you want to do all of that on the first turn?  

I'm not saying there aren't combos that could effectively (or literally) end the game in a single or 2 turns.  But the odds of it occurring are off the charts low. 

I got blasted for agreeing that shady resellers could open decks, look for high value ones and then reseal and resell the low value ones at full prince. Because the number of dealers doing it is so low that I was apparently chicken little claiming the sky was falling for agreeing that it happens.  These 1 turn wins are fun to come up with from a theory crafting side, but claims the game is in danger or broken because they could occur is far fetched.  These are win-the-lottery odds.  

Edited by xbeaker

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1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

I still don't get this as a 1 or 2 turn win.  If your opponent draws a hand of only 1 house, sure, a fair game, you see the hand, you use Restringuntus and lock it down.  But you are using Mind Barb (it does matter that you were calling it mind control, I couldn't figure out which card you meant for life of me) and then Tocsin.  That will cycle there hand for them, meaning you are helping them break the lock.  I don't understand the logic there that it is helping you win.  If their hand is not all 1 card you are, I assume, trying to draw out the cards that are not the locked house.  So if you locked down Brobnar, in  a hand that is mostly brobnar, you are hoping to Tocsin out the mars or logos (or whatever) but if the hand is mostly the restrained house, odds are you will pull that house and free up more space for other cards to be drawn.

I will agree yes, IF you have both Restringuntus and A Fair game in hand (there are 274 decks that have both of these cards), and IF your opponent had a hand of all 1 house (Succubus would up the odds, but we are down to 108 decks with all 3) and IF the card you pulled for a fair game was not the house they have in hand causing their hand to reset... You could lock them into a state in which they could no longer play a card.

And you want to do all of that on the first turn?  

I'm not saying there aren't combos that could effectively (or literally) end the game in a single or 2 turns.  But the odds of it occurring are off the charts low. 

I got blasted for agreeing that shady resellers could open decks, look for high value ones and then reseal and resell the low value ones at full prince. Because the number of dealers doing it is so low that I was apparently chicken little claiming the sky was falling for agreeing that it happens.  These 1 turn wins are fun to come up with from a theory crafting side, but claims the game is in danger or broken because they could occur is far fetched.  These are win-the-lottery odds.  

I'm sorry if my intentions were unclear. The thread was not meant to claim the game was broken, only to get people thoughts on the Nepenthe Seed-Library Access combo. As far as the quoted post being a first turn win, I meant it to be viewed as a single or two turn win. I enjoy these types of combos and the challenge that comes with finding answers. I was only trying to contribute to the conversation.

It's clear to me now, that this combo would not work the way I thought. I apologize for the confusion and will strikethrough my post so that it won't lead to any more confusion. My intent was to find a way to make Restringuntus more certain of locking the opponent down: revealing their hand, forcing them to discard cards and preventing them from drawing back up the next turn. My mistake with the card title, and my wording caused a lot of confusion, but my misunderstanding some card effects probably caused much of it as well.

This thread has lead to a good discussion concerning the nepenthe seed-library access combo, discussion of the Untamed combo, and the potential for single or two turn wins. I still don't understand why the quoted post was viewed as trolling.

 

For what it's worth, I played Magic in the 90s where resealing magic packs or finding other unethical ways to hunt chase cards occurred. It's not out of the question that this could occur if decks are going for hundred or thousands of dollars.

Edited by debiant

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2 minutes ago, debiant said:

This thread has lead to a good discussion concerning the nepenthe seed-library access combo, discussion of the Untamed combo, and the potential for single or two turn wins. I still don't understand why the quoted post was viewed as trolling.

I would just forget about the one comment. Agreed it has been an interesting discussion, though at times people get a little hung up on odds. Case in point on Library Access + Reverse Time / Nepenthe Seed + Phase Shift + Keycharge... You don't need to draw all of the cards. You only need two of them. Library Access and the Seed or Reverse Time. The rest will be drawn as a result of the combo.

I also expect that for every deck registered there's an unregistered deck (at least), so this "only XXX in the world with that combo" isn't entirely accurate.

But back on topic...

Last night I had what was effectively a first-turn win played against me:

1a. Opening turn I declared Untamed and play Snufflegator.
1b. My opponent plays Restringuntus (naming Untamed) and Control the Weak (naming Untamed).
2a. I can't declare a house and do nothing.
2b. My opponent plays a couple of 5+ power creatures... and the game is now effectively over.

Any creature I put into play is going to get killed by my opponent via fighting, and therefore the only way I can get rid of the Restringuntus is to draw non-Untamed elimination. But I already have a hand full of mostly Untamed cards, and by turn 5 I've played everything else and have nothing but Untamed. It was brutal, and hardly dumb lucky by my opponent... By playing a creature on turn one (normally the sensible play) I took all guesswork out of the equation. My opponent knew exactly what house I would prefer to declare and shut me out of immediately.

Restringuntus + Control the Weak is bad enough on the first turn, but there are plenty of cases where even just a turn one Restringuntus by itself can be a game-ender.

The official company line might be "the game is intended to have these kinds of combinations" but I know in casual play I'm always going to use the house rule that when declaring no house, you can discard cards from any house. Lockdowns are no fun for the person played against, and from the times I've pulled them off on my side, not particularly fun to engineer either.

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34 minutes ago, debiant said:

I'm sorry if my intentions were unclear. The thread was not meant to claim the game was broken, only to get people thoughts on the Nepenthe Seed-Library Access combo. As far as the quoted post being a first turn win, I meant it to be viewed as a single or two turn win. I enjoy these types of combos and the challenge that comes with finding answers. I was only trying to contribute to the conversation.

It's clear to me now, that this combo would not work the way I thought. I apologize for the confusion and will strikethrough my post so that it won't lead to any more confusion. My intent was to find a way to make Restringuntus more certain of locking the opponent down: revealing their hand, forcing them to discard cards and preventing them from drawing back up the next turn. My mistake with the card title, and my wording caused a lot of confusion, but my misunderstanding some card effects probably caused much of it as well.

This thread has lead to a good discussion concerning the nepenthe seed-library access combo, discussion of the Untamed combo, and the potential for single or two turn wins. I still don't understand why the quoted post was viewed as trolling.

 

For what it's worth, I played Magic in the 90s where resealing magic packs or finding other unethical ways to hunt chase cards occurred. It's not out of the question that this could occur if decks are going for hundred or thousands of dollars.

I was thinking back to the response msieder had to when I first read this post "Yes, so if this game ever had pretense to be competitive, can u see a live stream of that game at worlds? lol. smh "  Sorry that had me thinking this was  gripe thread that the game is broken because there is an outside possibility of these lock/instant win combos.  That had me in the wrong mindset when I read your comb.  I do apologize for that.  

And I was really confused with your combo, both the accidental mis-labeling of Mind Barb, and using discard actions to hold a person in lock.

That being said, I did once play against a Pitlord, and boy did I make my opponent pay for putting that thing out!  Between Control the weak, and Foggify, and blinding light I had 4 turns where you opponent did nothing or only gained a single aember reaping with his Pit-lord.  He couldn't get that thing killed fast enough! hahaha 

The Deck I used:
https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/916d82a4-414c-4687-822d-ee25ba388e8c

And I do look forward to having a Restinguntus and seeing a Pitlord opposite me
 

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1 hour ago, Jeff Hannes said:

I would just forget about the one comment. Agreed it has been an interesting discussion, though at times people get a little hung up on odds. Case in point on Library Access + Reverse Time / Nepenthe Seed + Phase Shift + Keycharge... You don't need to draw all of the cards. You only need two of them. Library Access and the Seed or Reverse Time. The rest will be drawn as a result of the combo.

I also expect that for every deck registered there's an unregistered deck (at least), so this "only XXX in the world with that combo" isn't entirely accurate.

But back on topic...

Last night I had what was effectively a first-turn win played against me:

1a. Opening turn I declared Untamed and play Snufflegator.
1b. My opponent plays Restringuntus (naming Untamed) and Control the Weak (naming Untamed).
2a. I can't declare a house and do nothing.
2b. My opponent plays a couple of 5+ power creatures... and the game is now effectively over.

Any creature I put into play is going to get killed by my opponent via fighting, and therefore the only way I can get rid of the Restringuntus is to draw non-Untamed elimination. But I already have a hand full of mostly Untamed cards, and by turn 5 I've played everything else and have nothing but Untamed. It was brutal, and hardly dumb lucky by my opponent... By playing a creature on turn one (normally the sensible play) I took all guesswork out of the equation. My opponent knew exactly what house I would prefer to declare and shut me out of immediately.

Restringuntus + Control the Weak is bad enough on the first turn, but there are plenty of cases where even just a turn one Restringuntus by itself can be a game-ender.

The official company line might be "the game is intended to have these kinds of combinations" but I know in casual play I'm always going to use the house rule that when declaring no house, you can discard cards from any house. Lockdowns are no fun for the person played against, and from the times I've pulled them off on my side, not particularly fun to engineer either.

Or, upon seeing your oppone t is play Dis, you could have mulliganed into a hand that was a little less Untamed heavy.  Or maybe not played out your Untamed to start.

Unless I know Restringuntus is not in their list, I try to muligan for removal and or balanced hands to give me some way to prevent from getting locked out.

It doesn't mean it's not going to happen from time to time, but the chances are decreased.

And there are always going to be decks/cards that pose problems for other decks.  What happens if your first turn play was Auto-Cannon and your opponent doesn't have any artifact removal? It your opponent's deck was light on any real strategy outside of Restringutus lock, them they are pretty much done for.

Don't let one bad game define the entirety of your experience 

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1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

I was thinking back to the response msieder had to when I first read this post "Yes, so if this game ever had pretense to be competitive, can u see a live stream of that game at worlds? lol. smh "  Sorry that had me thinking this was  gripe thread that the game is broken because there is an outside possibility of these lock/instant win combos.  That had me in the wrong mindset when I read your comb.  I do apologize for that.  

And I was really confused with your combo, both the accidental mis-labeling of Mind Barb, and using discard actions to hold a person in lock.

That being said, I did once play against a Pitlord, and boy did I make my opponent pay for putting that thing out!  Between Control the weak, and Foggify, and blinding light I had 4 turns where you opponent did nothing or only gained a single aember reaping with his Pit-lord.  He couldn't get that thing killed fast enough! hahaha 

The Deck I used:
https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/916d82a4-414c-4687-822d-ee25ba388e8c

And I do look forward to having a Restinguntus and seeing a Pitlord opposite me
 

Wow. That's a killer follow up. Was this with friends? Was your opponent salty or did they take it okay?

I had a somewhat similar experience with Restringuntus, but on the losing end and without Pit Lord.

I was playing a Nepenthe Seed-Library Access deck without Key Charge of Phase Shift.  My son's Restringuntus just destroyed me. He caught me a few turns before the shuffle, and played Shadow Self. I discarded to help put it down, and drew into 3 Sanctum. I thought I would be able to work with that.

He asked to see my discard and I knew I was in trouble. He called Dis and played Succubus and Restringuntus, then declared Sanctum off limits. I took my turn, and drew into 4 Sanctum. At some point we just kept playing to see if I could eventually escape. I did, but just before he forged his third key. He loved that game.

I would've lost anyways. I failed to connect with Nepenthe Seed and Library Access and made some bad plays early on thinking I could power my way through. I played a few cards too early, and archived some that didn't need to be. But it was epic play by my son. 

Edited by debiant

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2 hours ago, debiant said:

Wow. That's a killer follow up. Was this with friends? Was your opponent salty or did they take it okay?

I had a somewhat similar experience with Restringuntus, but on the losing end and without Pit Lord.

I was playing a Nepenthe Seed-Library Access deck without Key Charge of Phase Shift.  My son's Restringuntus just destroyed me. He caught me a few turns before the shuffle, and played Shadow Self. I discarded to help put it down, and drew into 3 Sanctum. I thought I would be able to work with that.

He asked to see my discard and I knew I was in trouble. He called Dis and played Succubus and Restringuntus, then declared Sanctum off limits. I took my turn, and drew into 4 Sanctum. At some point we just kept playing to see if I could eventually escape. I did, but just before he forged his third key. He loved that game.

I would've lost anyways. I failed to connect with Nepenthe Seed and Library Access and made some bad plays early on thinking I could power my way through. I played a few cards too early, and archived some that didn't need to be. But it was epic play by my son. 

It was against a friend.  He wasn't salty.  I just managed to catch him on the tail end of the Pitlord's usefulness.  He played it while having a Dominator bauble in play.  He had 2 or 3 turns where he really did some damage.  I don't remember the exact details exactly.  I turned it around with Blinding light.  And it was all down hill from there.  Once I saw how much the Pitlord was hindering him (I managed to whittle his creatures down to almost nothing at that point) I saw the light.  The following turns I was strictly playing to hinder his ability to get that creature to kill itself.  On the flip side when he did manage to get it off the table, he had a hand of logos.  It ultimately came down to a reasonable race of a game.  But those turns of him doing nothing were too much of a handicap and I did win.

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