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debiant

1-2 Turn Wins

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I wanted to run this by everyone and just make sure that it would indeed be a turn two win.

 

Cards:

  • Reverse Time and/or Nepenthe Seed
  • Library Access
  • Phase Shift
  • Key Charge (7 Cost Keys) and/or Key Abduction (Free Keys) and/or Key of Darkness

The cards you really need in your starting hand are Nepethene Seed or Reverse Time and Library Access. Going 1st would be most advantageous with Nepenthe Seed, as you can pretty much mulligan down to nothing.* With Nepenthe Seed and Reverse Time by turn 2, you're drawing three cards for every card you play thereafter.  You will continue to cycle your deck until you Phase Shift -> Key Charge x 3. Although the Reverse Time/Napenthe Seeed/Library Access is ridiculous enough. There are a host of other cards that can aid in this. I'm thinking particularly of the Time Traveller combo.

Am I missing something, or is this as broken as it sounds?

Does anyone know of any other turn two wins?

A really cool single turn win is shown by @thespaceinvader using Untamed below.

As mentioned below, I missed the fact that you can only mulligan once. It changes the probability a bit, but it doesn't negate the combo.

 

Edited by debiant
Edited title and text for omissions, contributions, clarity, and spelling errors.

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53 minutes ago, debiant said:

Going 1st would be most advantageous, as you can pretty much mulligan down to nothing.

You cannot mulligan down to nothing.  From the rulebook:

Quote

Each player, starting with the first player, has one opportunity to mulligan their starting hand by shuffling it back into their deck and drawing a new starting hand with one fewer card in it.

 

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1 hour ago, debiant said:

Phase Shift should probably be limited to once per turn.

Phase shift's effect is already limited to once per turn - the text on it says 'You may play one non-Logos card this turn.' Even if you play this multiple times, you can still only play one non-Logos card.

 

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50 minutes ago, xloserfishx said:

Phase shift's effect is already limited to once per turn - the text on it says 'You may play one non-Logos card this turn.' Even if you play this multiple times, you can still only play one non-Logos card.

 

This is by no means an official ruling or even the consensus. The player base is quite divided on this point. 

 

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I think this sort of thing will be a game killer for a lot of people, myself included. Even with just library access and reverse time it can be auto win if you get them out early.

I think allowing cards to go back into the discard pile immediately is a bug mistake. If cards like library access were discarded only when the effect expired it would fix these issues.

I played a game last night where i played library access and reverse time in turn 1. I ended up lots of cards in my hand, loads of amber, and lots of my logos on the board. Using novu archaeologist I pulled reverse time out of the discards into my archive. Turn 2 I forged a key, and did the combo again - ended up with most of my deck in my hand or on the board, lots of amber, and wiped opponent's creatures.

My opponent then conceded because he hardly got to play a card, it wasn't fun, and it wasn't really a game. I didn't blame him and that's basically I deck I'll never play as it was no fun for me either if the opponent doesn't even get a look in. 

I really hope they fix these insane combos that auto-win, its just not fun for either player and puts people of playing the game. When I play games like this I want a good back and forth where players of equal skill have closely fought games, not one-sided slaughter-fests - I thought KeyForge was meant to be different than this?

Edited by Ghost Dancer

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Nepenthe seed is not an action so it needs to be set up a turn in advance.

Opening turn win is possible though. Hand is Full Moon or Hunting Witch, 2 Dust Pixies, Chota Hazel, 2 Nature's Calls. Play FM or HW, play 2 Pixies for 3 each, play chota for 1 getting up to 7, lose one and forge, NC to take chota and the Pixies back into hand, repeat.

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@Suttkus Good point on Mulligans, sometimes MtG glues my brain shut.

@TheSpitfired To answer your questions:

1. I don't, but you can look up decks that do have this combo on the keyforge-compendium, or a decent variant, plenty exist. I have a deck with a single copy of Library Access and Nepenthe Seed and am able to draw out my deck roughly 1 in 4 games thus far—not on turn 2. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any of the out of phase Key generators.

2. Even if you don't have the trinity (Library Access, Reverse Time, and Nepenthe Seed) this still has a good chance of going off turn 2 with Library Access and one of the other two cards. The key—nudge, nudge—to winning turn 2 is the eventual use of Phase Shift and one of three Key gens x 3 (Key of Darkness, Key Abduction, Key Charge). Ideally you would have Key Abduction or Key Charge as you can end up getting your keys for free with Abduction and with Charge you have Untamed for solid amber generation and maybe reaching into your discard for combo pieces.

If you have all 3 of the set pieces (Library Access, Reverse Tme, and Nepenthe Seed)

Turn 1

  • Play Nepenthe Seed

Turn 2

  • Play Library Access
  • Use Nepenthe Seed Ability
  • Play Library Access (Draw 1 random card)
  • Play Reverse Time (Draw 2 random cards. Your entire deck will then consist of Nepenthe Seed and Library Access.)
  • Play any Logos card (draw 2 - this gets you back Library Access and Nepenthe Seed. Your deck now has no cards.)
  • Play Library Access (shuffle and draw 2 random cards)
  • Hold Nepenthe Seed for next turn or play with Phase Shift,. Just in case you whiff early this turn, you will be able to recover Reverse Time and play Library Access twice)
  • Play any Logos card (draw 3)
  • Do this until your deck is drawn out completely. Eventually play Library Access x 6 for 6 cards each turn.
  • Play Phase Shift and Key Abduction x 3 (It's important not to play Phase Shift more than 3 times if you want to win turn 2).

Phase Shift will help you in a pinch as it will end up netting you 6 cards, and it's how you play your Key generator. At this point you're drawing 3 cards for every card you play. Obviously, if you don't have at least a couple of Logos cards, it may be best to hold off a turn or two.

A Little About the Odds

Note: These odds were calculated using dbtoolkit.com 

So, going first, you have a 6.18% chance of getting Library Access and at least one Reverse Time or Nepenthe Seed. If you're forced to mulligan, you still end up with another chance of 4.48%. More than 1 in 10 hands you have a good chance of winning outright turn 2. If you go second, your odds decrease to 7.51% total with Mulligan to start with a turn 2 win, but your odds go up dramatically for drawing into it by turn 2. I'm not going any further with the odds here. It's not a guaranteed turn 2 victory by any means, but the likliehood that you will eventually pull it off are very good.

There are some alternative builds, but I won't go into that today. I'm not sure the odds of pulling most of them off are any better, but I'l continue to look at this combo and hope to get a deck with at least 2 of the 3 set pieces, phase shift, and a key gen.

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11 hours ago, debiant said:

I wanted to run this by everyone and just make sure that it would indeed be a turn two win.

 

Cards:

  • Reverse Time and/or Napenthe Seed
  • Library Access
  • Phase Shift
  • Key Charge (7 Cost Keys) and/or Key Abduction (Free Keys)

The cards you really need in your starting hand are Napathene Seed and Library Access. Going 1st would be most advantageous, as you can pretty much mulligan down to nothing. If you manage Reverse Time by turn 2, you're drawing three cards for every card you play thereafter.  You will continue to cycle your deck until you Phase Shift -> Key Charge x 3 all on the same turn. This is why Phase Shift should probably be limited to once per turn. Although the Reverse Time/Napenthe Seeed/Library Access is ridiculous enough. There are a host of other cards that will fill  in nicely: Time Traveller, Dust Pixies, Wild Wormhole, pretty much anything that gets you amber.

Am I missing something, or is this as broken as it sounds?

Does anyone know of any other turn two wins?

 

don't forget you have 0.005% chance of having the following combination of cards in your deck (at least one of each): Library Access, Phase Shift, Nepenthe Seed, Reverse Time, Key Charge

 

good luck with that

Edited by Palpster

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6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nepenthe seed is not an action so it needs to be set up a turn in advance.

Opening turn win is possible though. Hand is Full Moon or Hunting Witch, 2 Dust Pixies, Chota Hazel, 2 Nature's Calls. Play FM or HW, play 2 Pixies for 3 each, play chota for 1 getting up to 7, lose one and forge, NC to take chota and the Pixies back into hand, repeat.

Very nice combo! With your combo it's 100% reliable when you get it, you would have to wait until your second turn half of your games, and you would have to draw a very specific hand, but the possibility of a one turn win is nice. You could also use Fuzzy Gruen instead of Dust Pixies. I love it.

When I referred to Turn 2, I really meant your second turn. It would be Turn 3 of the game. I'll change the title to clarify.

 

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15 minutes ago, debiant said:

Very nice combo! With your combo it's 100% reliable when you get it, you would have to wait until your second turn half of your games, and you would have to draw a very specific hand, but the possibility of a one turn win is nice. You could also use Fuzzy Gruen instead of Dust Pixies. I love it.

When I referred to Turn 2, I really meant your second turn. It would be Turn 3 of the game. I'll change the title to clarify.

 

All the elements of this combo are great individually and the reason untamed is by far my favourite faction.

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28 minutes ago, Palpster said:

don't forget you have 0.005% chance of having the following combination of cards in your deck (at least one of each): Library Access, Phase Shift, Nepenthe Seed, Reverse Time, Key Charge

 

good luck with that

Not all of the cards are required. There are 3 Key gens that you can use for this, you don't need both Nepenthe Seed and Reverse Time to pull it off. I'm describing what is required for an optimal build for a two turn win. I explained much of that, this morning; you may have missed it. 

Edited by debiant

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1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

No? The idea is that your deck can generate enough aember by playing cards to forge a key when all cards are played. Then repeat.

Yes, but it said in 2 turns. That gives your opponent a turn to break a key and take the amber.

The question was rhetorical, it’s definitely vulnerable to that, or cards that limit your hand size, number of cards you can play. (Ie Dis)

Edited by Derrault

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12 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

Thanks for the clarification.

It sounds good in theory but my honest doubt is in its ability to generate 21 aember in one turn. That part I’m not seeing.

Otherwise that does sound like a tough play to beat!

If you have your entire deck to revolve through over and over you will be able to generate the needed amber easily enough. I don't think there's anything preventing that, unless I'm misunderstanding Library Access. With Key Abduction you can do it without any amber at all, unless I misunderstand that card.

@Derrault - I'm not saying it's a guaranteed win. Your opponent will have one full turn to react and break the combo if you need Nepenthe Seed, which you don't necessarily (odds decrease). Or two turns if you you play second, one of those being only a single card without the potential for stealing.

This is all just theory crafting at the moment, but I think a deck with this kind of build has a lot of potential.

Edited by debiant

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First, I don't have a problem with crazy combos. They are fun to see go off. Even if I lose... unless it's a competitive event. (Anyone remember the Urza block in MTG? I loved those crazy combos even though I never had a deck to play them. They were fun to see.)

Second, if it is a competitive event this still isn't a problem. They already have a build in system to handle this. They can retire decks. If this truly is a problem any deck with a specific combination of cards can be retired.

I have had people try to argue that that would not be fair to the people who had those decks. That's not at all true. FFG has already said that if a deck is retired you can exchange it for 2 sealed or keep it for casual play.

Local TOs also can just ban or chain said decks if they are not running OP events. There are plenty of tools in place that this isn't the boogeyman some people make it out to be.

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19 minutes ago, debiant said:

Not all of the cards are required. There are 3 Key gens that you can use for this, you don't need both Nepenthe Seed and Reverse Time to pull it off. I'm describing what is required for an optimal build for a two turn win. I explained much of that, this morning; you may have missed it. 

I thought you said:

12 hours ago, debiant said:

Am I missing something, or is this as broken as it sounds?

I personally wouldn't call it broken if it  could happen in roughly 6% of the opening hands of 0,005% of all decks (and I didn't fill in the requirements for generating enough aember).

If it's just an exercise in finding the fastest way to win a game of Keyforge, then sure...enjoy

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27 minutes ago, Palpster said:

I thought you said:

I personally wouldn't call it broken if it  could happen in roughly 6% of the opening hands of 0,005% of all decks (and I didn't fill in the requirements for generating enough aember).

If it's just an exercise in finding the fastest way to win a game of Keyforge, then sure...enjoy

I hear what you're saying, but it doesn't need to go off turn 1 or turn 2 or even early in the game to win. I realize that your opponent has a higher probability of breaking the combo the longer you go on, but if you can get Library Access and Reverse Time in any given turn, it still has a decent chance of going off, especially if you have some Logos in your discard. If you already have a Key or two forged, later in the game, it's even easier to pull off with a single Key Abduction and Phase Shift. Reverse Time is better if you discard is small or has a fair bit of Logos, and Nepenthe Seed or Witch of the Eye is better if your discard is larger, but the combo will be negated more often.

If you go second and have Reverse Time you can win in your first turn, or in two turns. My combo isn't 100% of the time like @thespaceinvader offers, but it doesn't require the entire combo be in hand.

But yes, most of this is just an excercise.

Edited by debiant
Edited to make last sentence it's own paragraph and revise statement in second paragraph.

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It's not theory-craft... I have a deck with the combo, and I won a tournament with it at PAX last weekend. Though ironically, in my last game my Untamed / Sanctum draw was so good that I managed to win without ever declaring Logos. Eventually had a hand of only Logos cards, but I just kept reaping with what I had on the board. Weird game aside, the deck changes the way I play KeyForge when I use it... Until I have the combo I avoid Aember generation (if my opponent is playing Shadows) and just stall until I have it set up. As long as my opponent doesn't get to that third key, it doesn't much matter what I do until then. Honestly, it's not very fun to play, but it is by far the most powerful deck archetype I've seen.

Also, as I've noted elsewhere, the Phase Shift / Key Charge gets style points, but it's unnecessary. All that matters is playing Library Access twice in one turn (usually with Nepenthe Seed or Reverse Time, though with a lucky draw it's even possible to do this without either card if you play Library Access with an empty deck), and then you're off to the races. Once you have your entire deck in your hand you can play any card in your deck up to 6 times, because every card play will draw the other card in your discard pile. Even if you can't forge a key, you're all but guaranteed a win within three turns.

I really do hope FFG fixes this by either issuing errata to Library Access to limit it to being played once per turn (just add "You cannot play Library Access again this turn" or somesuch), or by changing the Rule of 6 to apply to triggered effects as well. Personally I'd prefer the latter, as it will shut down future chicanery on cards that don't even exist yet, but the community will undoubtedly find a way to break.

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4 hours ago, Palpster said:

I thought you said:

I personally wouldn't call it broken if it  could happen in roughly 6% of the opening hands of 0,005% of all decks (and I didn't fill in the requirements for generating enough aember).

If it's just an exercise in finding the fastest way to win a game of Keyforge, then sure...enjoy

The fact that it can happen at all is the difference between taking this game as a casual game, or a competitive game. 

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5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nepenthe seed is not an action so it needs to be set up a turn in advance.

Opening turn win is possible though. Hand is Full Moon or Hunting Witch, 2 Dust Pixies, Chota Hazel, 2 Nature's Calls. Play FM or HW, play 2 Pixies for 3 each, play chota for 1 getting up to 7, lose one and forge, NC to take chota and the Pixies back into hand, repeat.

There are 6 registered decks that could theoretically pull this off. Wow would that be a demoralizing game!  "Um, Ok, I am first, I call Dis, I play a The Terror and gain 2 Aember.  Pass" "I call Untamed ... [yadd yadda] .. and forge my 3rd key.  Good game." lol

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7 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

There are 6 registered decks that could theoretically pull this off. Wow would that be a demoralizing game!  "Um, Ok, I am first, I call Dis, I play a The Terror and gain 2 Aember.  Pass" "I call Untamed ... [yadd yadda] .. and forge my 3rd key.  Good game." lol

Yes, so if this game ever had pretense to be competitive, can u see a live stream of that game at worlds? lol. smh 

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1 minute ago, msieder said:

Yes, so if this game ever had pretense to be competitive, can u see a live stream of that game at worlds? lol. smh 

if one of those 6 decks made it to worlds, and got that infinitesimally small chance draw to pull those exact 6 cards.. we would have witnessed one of the most unlikely things to ever occur in the history of man

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