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I'm leaning towards it being fixed at the time of response [courtesy of the lasting effect ruling], which means that Bilbo could get the boost even if Argalad not only reduces the enemy's threat, but if he actually kills the enemy in question.  But since that would work out well for the players, perhaps I'm optimistic on that point.

What about picking an immune enemy for the willpower boost?  It's clearly "choosing" an enemy, but it does not affect the enemy in any way.  Cards that boost based on being lower than engagement cost "interact" with a specific immune enemy, but work just fine -- why should it be OK to interact with the engagement cost but not OK to interact with the threat?  (The direct damage wouldn't work, of course.)

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24 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

I'm leaning towards it being fixed at the time of response [courtesy of the lasting effect ruling], which means that Bilbo could get the boost even if Argalad not only reduces the enemy's threat, but if he actually kills the enemy in question.  But since that would work out well for the players, perhaps I'm optimistic on that point.

What about picking an immune enemy for the willpower boost?  It's clearly "choosing" an enemy, but it does not affect the enemy in any way.  Cards that boost based on being lower than engagement cost "interact" with a specific immune enemy, but work just fine -- why should it be OK to interact with the engagement cost but not OK to interact with the threat?  (The direct damage wouldn't work, of course.)

I would expect ruling being: not possible to choose immune enemy. 

I also relaized that immune enemy would be discarded if triggered by guard  effect on player cards correct? Or not?

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Hard to say, the FAQ clearly states "that player card effects cannot directly influence or interact with a card that is immune to player card effects." But it also says "you may still use Pippin's Response to draw a card, because this response is not affecting the enemy in any way."

And even though I see drawing a card due to engagement cost as interacting, it is allowed due to not affecting the enemy in any way and the same applies to Bilbo's response. So I would vote for allowed.

As far as modifying an enemy's threat goes (or even killing him), the FAQ writes: "A lasting effect created by a player card ability must be calculated at the time the ability is triggered, and that effect is not recalculated if the game state changes." So Bilbo gets a willpower boost as soon as he commits to the quest and keeps it to the end of the phase.

 
Edited by Amicus Draconis
mixed willpower and threat

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1 hour ago, dalestephenson said:

What about picking an immune enemy for the willpower boost?  It's clearly "choosing" an enemy, but it does not affect the enemy in any way.  Cards that boost based on being lower than engagement cost "interact" with a specific immune enemy, but work just fine -- why should it be OK to interact with the engagement cost but not OK to interact with the threat?  (The direct damage wouldn't work, of course.)

FYI, I submitted an official query about this and will post when resolved.

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The question is whether it is "the target" when only Bilbo is affected.  Pippin's response *does* work when engaging an immune enemy with engagement > threat, after all, and that's not possible without interacting with the immune enemy's threat.

Does Robin Smallburrow's response work with immune locations?

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FWIW I'm in general agreement with @dalestephenson's interpretation here, that we have "read access" to encounter cards, regardless of Immune status. What's problematic for Tilbo is that he uses the word "choose", which, as has been pointed out, is specifically called out in the FAQ on Immunity.

We'll see what Caleb says. I suppose this could've come up before in the setting of Fatty and a player who wanted to raise his threat off an Immune enemy, but shockingly, I couldn't find anyone bringing up that particular issue before… ;)

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9 hours ago, player1683311 said:

Love of tales could make a comeback

It doesn't need a comeback. It's still a high power card in the right deck even after the errata. A popularity resurgence would be welcome, though.

6 hours ago, Halberto said:

Today he is the only character with that trait.

Nope! :Phttp://hallofbeorn.com/LotR/Details/Bilbo-Baggins-THOtD

Edited by Wandalf the Gizzard
-

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9 hours ago, Halberto said:

Let's see if we get an event card played only if you control a burglar hero to detach a player guarded card by attached encounter cards without need of defeating it...

Lol, poetic justice if that guarded card is attached to a pickpocket...

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I think Bilbo will be pretty much just a niche character: trap decks or something where a big enemy stays in the staging area? Even then, 9 threat really works against him.

Tactics seems like a bad sphere for the ability too: they have the tools to just kill stuff, not leave it and out quest it.

 

Not unplayable, but definitely lacking.

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1 hour ago, ColinEdwards said:

I think Bilbo will be pretty much just a niche character: trap decks or something where a big enemy stays in the staging area? Even then, 9 threat really works against him.

Tactics seems like a bad sphere for the ability too: they have the tools to just kill stuff, not leave it and out quest it.

 

Not unplayable, but definitely lacking.

Bilbo is clearly an hero working differently from his sphere colleagues.

Which sometimes can be great, think of T-Eowyn or S-Beregond

Early to say as we did not have the time yet to try him in practice but i consider him quite good in hobbit deck as alternative to merry or Tom cotton to splash tactic to access to some key cards (dagger of westernesse , feint, handling determination,  etc..).

And if he finally works with argalad then things can get really interesting...  Bilbo and argalad strikes for 2. Add in a gondorian superman with a spear and you kill 1 4hitpoints enemy every round without needs to defend. Not considering Thalin, goblin cleaver or any other dire t damage effect.

Not a powerhouse but a fun hero not made for all decks . 

 

Edited by Halberto

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18 hours ago, dalestephenson said:

I think Bilbo's 9 would be easier to take if he could also find Guarded cards in your deck.  As is he's overcosted again, and since the neutral card is known it won't be a Bilbo-specific attachment that reduces the threat of both versions. 

We have Open the Armory, so finding Sting in a Bilbo deck is going to be pretty easy.

I think people are going to be surprised at Bilbo's power, as it's clear that his ability was designed in part to make up for his high threat cost. Personally, I think he'll be incredibly fun and thematic to play, which is what I want out of the character. People that by default compare every questing hero to Eowyn are going to be frequently disappointed.

Quote

OTOH, the neutral card *does* at least allow Bilbo to partake in Hobbit secrecy decks, since Bilbo+Shirefolk+Hobbit+Hobbit is <20 threat.  Both Bilbo's extra card and Bilbo's direct damage to staging are especially welcome to Hobbit decks -- and guarded cards also work best for turtle decks, which secrecy decks generally are.

Bilbo can already start in Hobbit secrecy decks: Bilbo+Folco+Any hobbit under 8 threat

Edited by Seastan

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2 hours ago, ColinEdwards said:

I think Bilbo will be pretty much just a niche character: trap decks or something where a big enemy stays in the staging area? Even then, 9 threat really works against him.

Tactics seems like a bad sphere for the ability too: they have the tools to just kill stuff, not leave it and out quest it.

 

Not unplayable, but definitely lacking.

I would not say, Bilbo requires a high threat enemy to work. Essentially he negates the threat of one enemy and damages him in the process. Imagine a solo game with an enemy in the staging area, only Bilbo commits to the quest and a treachery is about to be revealed (one that does not increase threat in any way). If the enemy has 1 threat, Bilbo will have 2 willpower, quest succesfully, deal 1 damage and place 1 progress. If the enemy has 5 threat, Bilbo will have 6 willpower, quest succesfully, deal 1 damage and place 1 progress. If there is an empty staging area, Bilbo will have 1 willpower, quest succesfully and place 1 progress.

So in the end, it does not matter how much threat the enemy has, the result will be the same(save for the damage). It's more like a repeatable Radagast's Cunning without cost, but a damage component instead.

And why would Tactics be bad for him? Most direct damage cards are in this sphere anyway. And every enemy you can kill without a defender saves you actions, resources or cards.

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What do you think Round Shield’s “attach to” restriction is? It looks like there is not much room for the hidden text, so it is probably either “attach to a character,” or “attach to a <sphere icon>” character, almost certainly tactics in that case. Nice little piece of armor, good on allies who would only die if the enemy gets +attack. I know I’ve been in that situation often.

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I want to make a 3 player fellowship where one deck has Thalin, one has Argalad, and one has Bilbo. We are now in the very easy range of killing enemies with 3 to 5 HP immediately after they come out of the encounter deck. You could of course put all of those heroes in the same deck, but all 3 of them require exhaustion. Really hems in your deck building options. I think a multiplayer project will be more fun to build.

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15 minutes ago, GrandSpleen said:

I want to make a 3 player fellowship where one deck has Thalin, one has Argalad, and one has Bilbo. We are now in the very easy range of killing enemies with 3 to 5 HP immediately after they come out of the encounter deck. You could of course put all of those heroes in the same deck, but all 3 of them require exhaustion. Really hems in your deck building options. I think a multiplayer project will be more fun to build.

In my experience, Argalad-Thalin is already a pair that works even down to the 2-player count quite well, e.g., http://ringsdb.com/decklist/view/2719/direct-damage-zone-1.0. Putting Tilbo across the table seems quite plausible, or perhaps making it Tilbo-Thalin with Argalad across the table…

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1 hour ago, Amicus Draconis said:

I would not say, Bilbo requires a high threat enemy to work. Essentially he negates the threat of one enemy and damages him in the process

Yeah, but it still requires an enemy to be in the staging area; 9 threat really works against the whole secrecy thing.

Bilbo + Folco is .... OK, but Merry or Pippin work better with more hobbit heroes in play so that feels like it is working against some of the more common heroes a  Bilbo deck might use.

There is some synergy with traps, but his ability just doesn't complement ranger spikes. the way I read it, the -2 threat from spikes cancels out any Bilbo gain.

He's in tactics, the sphere best suited to engaging and killing enemies.

Not only is he 9 threat for 6 stats, but 2 defense with 2 hp? pretty fragile for a defender - or even a quester in a lot of missions. Due to poor stat allocation, he's probably a bit more over-costed than adding up his stats might indicate.

His damage is done to the same enemy his threat is against, which means he is torn between killing something weak or canceling something high threat.

I don't see any real synergy with Sting - any version of it.

Not unplayable by any means, but it feels like a lot of missed opportunities.

If he was in the same sphere as "Hobbit Pony" and "Fastred", Bilbo would be better. If his stats were 2-1-1-2 for 8 cost AND spirit, he'd be something to be a bit excited about.

(He's not horrible by any means; he is comparable to Leadership-Eomer - who also feels like a hero who doesn't work as well as he should.)

 

(and give me a Hobbit Slingshot: 0 cost. Tactics. Restricted. Attach to a Hobbit character. Combat Action: Exhaust slingshot and attached character to do 1 damage to an enemy not engaged with you.)

Edited by ColinEdwards

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5 minutes ago, ColinEdwards said:

Yeah, but it still requires an enemy to be in the staging area; 9 threat really works against the whole secrecy thing.

There is some synergy with traps, but his ability just doesn't complement ranger spikes. the way I read it, the -2 threat from spikes cancels out any Bilbo gain.

He's in tactics, the sphere best suited to engaging and killing enemies.

Not only is he 9 threat for 6 stats ... 2 defense with 2 hp? pretty fragile for a defender - or even a quester in a lot of missions.

If he was in the same sphere as "Hobbit Pony" and "Fastred", Bilbo would be better. If his stats were 2-1-1-2 for 8 cost and spirit, he'd be something to be a bit excited about.

Not unplayable by any means, but it feels like a lot of missed opportunities.

There are enemies in this game with high engagment cost that you do not want to/cannot engage early or never at all. Something like a Goblin Sniper, Orc Vanguard, Cave Eel, Umbar Assassin, Carn Dûm Garrison, Island Watcher etc. Trolls, Giants and Mumâks tend to have too many hitpoints to kill them this way. You could also compare Bilbo to Thalin: The former provides potentially more willpower and damage over time, while the latter can deal more damage per round.

And let's be honest, while a hero like Beravor has a 10 statpoints, most likely they will not be used, as Beravor will draw cards. So this would also be 10 threat for effectively 4 hit points and some card draw.

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3 minutes ago, dalestephenson said:

I've had great fun with LeEomer and Fastred.  I wish Bilbo were less threat, but with Shirefolk being added to the card pool I can't see 9 threat as a dealbreaker for including TaBilbo in an all-hobbit deck. 

Yeah, but if you take Fastred (or Damrod for traps), you don't have all-hobbit or (hobbit-ranger), which removes some of the stuff you can do - like Shirefolk. (I think Shirefolk is a great card: but does it work well with Bilbo + Dwarves or anything thematic?)

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9 minutes ago, ColinEdwards said:

Not only is he 9 threat for 6 stats, but 2 defense with 2 hp? pretty fragile for a defender - or even a quester in a lot of missions. Due to poor stat allocation, he's probably a bit more over-costed than adding up his stats might indicae.

It's really ridiculous how Bilbo -- one of the most famous and iconic of all Hobbits -- gets the complete shaft in this game. He's outperformed by all but SpPippin and Fatty! I mean,  flippin' Folco Boffin has a 2-2-0-2 stat line, and an incredible utility ability as well! Sometimes I just don't get the LotR LCG design team at all...

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1 minute ago, Amicus Draconis said:

And let's be honest, while a hero like Beravor has a 10 statpoints, most likely they will not be used, as Beravor will draw cards. So this would also be 10 threat for effectively 4 hit points and some card draw. 

sure... and Beravor is 'OK'. Not exactly setting the world on fire, the corner stone of the "Other" One-Deck. Solid ability, all-around stats, I haven't seen her hit the table in months?  maybe once in the last two years? If i was playing with people I didn't know, I probably am not thinking "I better bring a backup hero in case someone else is using Beravor"

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1 minute ago, ColinEdwards said:

sure... and Beravor is 'OK'. Not exactly setting the world on fire, the corner stone of the "Other" One-Deck. Solid ability, all-around stats, I haven't seen her hit the table in months?  maybe once in the last two years? If i was playing with people I didn't know, I probably am not thinking "I better bring a backup hero in case someone else is using Beravor"

Beravor is the 10th most common hero in the game according to RingsDB usage.

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