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LukeZZ

Kaito Shrine Keeper [Monk] School has no access to Kiho?!?

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Kaito Shrine Keeper [Monk] School has no access to Kiho?!?

Isn't a little strange?

 

Same thing for Shosuro Infiltrator School [Shinobi, Courtier]: no access to Ninjutsu.

Ehm... no school has access to Ninjutsu...

Edited by LukeZZ

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26 minutes ago, LukeZZ said:

Same thing for Shosuro Infiltrator School [Shinobi, Courtier]: no access to Ninjutsu.

Ehm... no school has access to Ninjutsu...

They do. They get privileged access to specific techniques at given ranks (Skulk at rank 1, Noxious Cloud at range 2).

They don't have 'ninjutsu' as a specific technique class because there are so few techniques in it that it'd be a touch unfair (there are only 4 in total).

 

26 minutes ago, LukeZZ said:

Kaito Shrine Keeper [Monk] School has no access to Kiho?!?

Isn't a little strange?

Not really. They're not so much the 'unarmed combat' style monk as a priestly type. Note that whilst they don't get universal access to invocations they get a LOT of specific invocations in their school curriculum (most of the air ones, in fact). Their main 'schtick' is "Magical Archer" - hence their school ability.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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I can accept the fact they did only a short list for the 2 "generic" technique groups (Rituals and Maho), but I don't like at all the fact they did not "complete" the Ninjutsu technique group (it only has 4 Air techniques).

The fact that the Hiruma Scout, Shosuro Infiltrator and Soshi Illusionist all get the Ninjutsu techniques as privileged access and no school gets the Ninjutsu group is simply an "escamotage" to cover that.

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I mean, it is like secret forbidden arts. Two involve poison directly, for instance, which is an item with the "Forbidden" quality. They're not really exactly popularized. Heck, Bayushi Yojiro didn't even know his clan did shinobi stuff, let alone they have access to weird *** shadow techniques (which will probably be in a title later since not even everybody in shinobi school gets them).

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"Shadow" techniques should be something completely different from "Ninjutsu" techniques: they should only be usable by someone with Shadow taint.

"Ninjutsu" are secret and forbidden arts practised by shinobi: this is way there are only 3 shinobi "professions" in the base manual. And all 3 these shinobi professions still get all those secret and forbidden arts... but not the group.

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6 minutes ago, LukeZZ said:

I can accept the fact they did only a short list for the 2 "generic" technique groups (Rituals and Maho), but I don't like at all the fact they did not "complete" the Ninjutsu technique group (it only has 4 Air techniques).

The fact that the Hiruma Scout, Shosuro Infiltrator and Soshi Illusionist all get the Ninjutsu techniques as privileged access and no school gets the Ninjutsu group is simply an "escamotage" to cover that.

None of those are pure "ninja" in the sense of black-clad assassins/saboteurs. The Infiltrators come closest, but they're "hide in plain sight" operators. The Hiruma are bushi who use guerilla tactics, the Soshi are shugenja with a penchant for misdirection. We might get a true ninja school later, with non-privileged access to a wider range of ninjutsu techniques, but for the shinobi schools we have so far it makes sense that they use limited ninjutsu only to supplement the main tools of their trade.

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9 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

None of those are pure "ninja" in the sense of black-clad assassins/saboteurs. The Infiltrators come closest, but they're "hide in plain sight" operators. The Hiruma are bushi who use guerilla tactics, the Soshi are shugenja with a penchant for misdirection. We might get a true ninja school later, with non-privileged access to a wider range of ninjutsu techniques, but for the shinobi schools we have so far it makes sense that they use limited ninjutsu only to supplement the main tools of their trade.

I would completely agree with you if they didn't give them the Shinobi descriptor, only the privileged access to ninjutsu techniques.

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1 minute ago, LukeZZ said:

I would completely agree with you if they didn't give them the Shinobi descriptor, only the privileged access to ninjutsu techniques.

*cough*Kaito*cough* 😛 

Do school descriptors serve a function? Are there mechanical consequences for having/not having a given descriptor?

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1 hour ago, LukeZZ said:

"Shadow" techniques should be something completely different from "Ninjutsu" techniques: they should only be usable by someone with Shadow taint.

It's much shorter for me to say you should read the back of Whispers of Shadow and Steel than explain the whole thing.

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11 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

*cough*Kaito*cough* 😛 

Yes, Kaito too...

A school that grants access to some techniques from a profession it doesn't have can be acceptable.

A school that doesn't grant access to techniques from a profession it has is "very strange" (from my point of view).

Bushi > Kata --- Shugenja > Invocations --- Courtiers > Shuji --- Monk > Kiho --- Shinobi > Ninjutsu

11 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Do school descriptors serve a function? Are there mechanical consequences for having/not having a given descriptor?

Anyway that is a very good question: it seems profession descriptors serve no function. There could be a Bushi school without access to Katas...

 

Edited by LukeZZ

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7 hours ago, LukeZZ said:

Yes, Kaito too... but in a lesser way.

A school that grants access to some techniques from a profession it doesn't have can be acceptable.

A school that doesn't grant access to techniques from a profession it has is "very strange" (from my point of view).

Bushi > Kata --- Shugenja > Invocations --- Courtiers > Shuji --- Monk > Kiho --- Shinobi > Ninjutsu

Anyway that is a very good question: it seems profession descriptors serve no function. There could be a Bushi school without access to Katas...

 

You realize the topic of this thread is that the Kaito Shrinekeepers are [monks] that don't get access to kiho (not even privileged!), right?

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The assumption that Monks = Kiho was false.  Two Phoenix schools not tagged monk get a couple privelaged Kiho access. Monk is a tag for characters with supernatural affinity, who are not shugenja, meant to let players know what their characters can get up to or are suited for.  Cast aside your preconceptions and study the text anew. 

Not everything has to be a "mechanic" jeez guys. Players still need to understand concepts with their human reading brains. 

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Just now, UnitOmega said:

The assumption that Monks = Kiho was false.  Two Phoenix schools not tagged monk get a couple privelaged Kiho access. Monk is a tag for characters with supernatural affinity, who are not shugenja, meant to let players know what their characters can get up to or are suited for.  Cast aside your preconceptions and study the text anew.

The social differences are pretty important too. If this edition is like the previous ones, monks stand somewhat aside from the responsibilities of the samurai caste. They don't necessarily gain honor, status, or glory the same way, aren't expected to take up arms in service to a daimyo, etc...

Your typical samurai is a minor but higher-than-average caste person in a very hierarchical organization. Think junior officer. Monks are more like the non-profit aid workers that work along beside the junior officer. The kiho is the fantasy element, but it's not what makes a person a monk.  Taking vows and serving a temple rather than a clan is. The Ize Zumi, as always, being the wierd exception to all rules...

 

 

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Yeah, the text does actually bring that up a fair bit, but it's still kind of weird in core because the only two Monk schools are from samurai families, but it'll be very applicable when Disciples of Shinsei and Fortunist Monks are out in Emerald Empire. 

The nature of the Kaito school is still in that vein though, they train priests and caretakers of shrines. Your Duty as a Kaito Shrinekeeper is something spiritual and respected, but not as valuable or prestigious as a Shugenja. 

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2 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

You realize the topic of this thread is that the Kaito Shrinekeepers are [monks] that don't get access to kiho (not even privileged!), right?

Sorry, the "but in a lesser way" part was a leftover from another phrase (I didn't completely erase).

 

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Monks are about enlightenment. That's the long and short of it. Doesn't matter which path they choose to try and achieve it.

Some tags are tenuous at best. Hiruma scouts aren't really shinobi. Kakita Duelists get the [artisan] tag while Doji Diplomats don't - yet their curricula are identical in terms of artisan skills and aesthetics and the Diplomats' greater focus on shuji arguably gives them a slight edge in that regard. Soshi Illusionists being [courtiers] is a stretch and I'm really interested in the difference between a shugenja's relation to the kami and that of a Shrine Keeper, given that the latter don't get that tag.

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2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I'm really interested in the difference between a shugenja's relation to the kami and that of a Shrine Keeper, given that the latter don't get that tag.

Read The Sword & The Spirits. E-book is like 4 bucks on DriveThru. 

Or I really hope they reprint the fluff stuff in the back in an RPG sourcebook someday, because that's how it's written. But for now, it's in the novella. 

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7 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Read The Sword & The Spirits. E-book is like 4 bucks on DriveThru. 

Or I really hope they reprint the fluff stuff in the back in an RPG sourcebook someday, because that's how it's written. But for now, it's in the novella. 

Been looking to pick it up in book form, but it's out of stock. That fluff is another item on the Emerald Empire content wish list, I guess.

Edited by nameless ronin

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11 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Some tags are tenuous at best. Hiruma scouts aren't really shinobi. Kakita Duelists get the [artisan] tag while Doji Diplomats don't - yet their curricula are identical in terms of artisan skills and aesthetics and the Diplomats' greater focus on shuji arguably gives them a slight edge in that regard. Soshi Illusionists being [courtiers] is a stretch and I'm really interested in the difference between a shugenja's relation to the kami and that of a Shrine Keeper, given that the latter don't get that tag.

I completely agree.

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12 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Read The Sword & The Spirits. E-book is like 4 bucks on DriveThru. 

Or I really hope they reprint the fluff stuff in the back in an RPG sourcebook someday, because that's how it's written. But for now, it's in the novella. 

Didn't find it on drivethru, but located a physical copy. Should be arriving in a week or so. Note: there's a Kaito Shrine Keeper (Kaito Kosori) card for the CCG included in the book, and apparently she has both the monk and shugenja tags.

7666899763387418513.jpg

edit: only just now noticed the Shrine Keepers carry a wakizashi, making them ostensibly samurai even if they're monks. I really need to read what weird place these guys and gals have in Rokugani society.

Edited by nameless ronin

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6 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Didn't find it on drivethru, but located a physical copy. Should be arriving in a week or so. Note: there's a Kaito Shrine Keeper (Kaito Kosori) card for the CCG included in the book, and apparently she has both the monk and shugenja tags.

7666899763387418513.jpg

edit: only just now noticed the Shrine Keepers carry a wakizashi, making them ostensibly samurai even if they're monks. I really need to read what weird place these guys and gals have in Rokugani society.

They were created by FFG. You have your answer :)

They are bushi, who can cast spells, and are living like monks near shrines, and are anime AF.

aint that CoOL ??

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On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:05 PM, nameless ronin said:

 Soshi Illusionists being [courtiers] is a stretch and I'm really interested in the difference between a shugenja's relation to the kami and that of a Shrine Keeper, given that the latter don't get that tag.

 Soshi are known for using their spells in courtly situations to assist the other scorpion courtiers, which means they have the same basic reason for being "courtiers" that the Shiba Yojimbo do.  What actually surprises me here is the Daidoji not getting the courtier tag, as if Crane Yojimbo aren't trained in proper court etiquette.  To me, the Kakita duelist should have been [Bushi] and the Iron warrior should have been [Bushi, courtier].  Shinjo outriders getting the courtier tag is a little weird also, as they are mostly meant to be scouts.. they have exactly one "courtier" duty, which is delivering messages..  Other than that, the Unicorn would hand all of their official courting to the Ide.

  While not canon, I think when it comes to the Kaito we could assume that the Kami listen to them because the Kaito fight to defend the Kami. As an off-shoot of the Isawa, we can assume that the Kaito have the "Innate magical bloodline" that all shugenja have, but they seem to spend more of their time with the practical matters of caring for temples and protecting the spirits rather than studying how to manipulate the spirits like most shugenja.

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