Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
T_Kageyasu

Who marries into a family?

Recommended Posts

I would assume the answer depends on who has higher status, wealth, and prospects for bearing children. Who would lose their name if marriage was between a high ranking official in a minor clan vs a mid ranking member of a great clan? I appreciate any thoughts or suggestions! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally speaking, lower status marries into family of higher status. Clearly there are some exceptions, as the Unicorn Clan Champion was going to marry an Ikoma Somebody and join his family...

Your specific scenario, I would say the mid-rank GC guy marries into the High Rank MC lass's clan. Though it may boil down to who the nakado favors more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Generally speaking, lower status marries into family of higher status. Clearly there are some exceptions, as the Unicorn Clan Champion was going to marry an Ikoma Somebody and join his family...

This. A minor clan champion is higher status than a great clan samurai, so the great clan samurai would be expected to become a member of the minor clan.

But any marriage between high ranking individuals is generally political rather than romantic, and exceptions are often written into the terms of the deal - Shinjo Altansarai was happy to go along with grudgingly accepting being Mrs Ikoma because the wedding was one part of a treaty to 'shelve' the Lion Clan's claims to Unicorn territory, despite her higher status (until she found out the guy was already married, and the wife was going to kill herself and put the blood on the Unicorn's hands if she went through with it - something the Lion had 'sadly neglected to mention')

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's considered notable that men marry into the Matsu family.  because this situation is specifically noted, we could assume that "the norm" is for women to marry into the man's family.  As for the Otaku, I believe that non-battle maiden women generally leave the family, but the few battle maidens who actually get married tend to bring their husbands into the family (I don't recall this actually being stated anywhere though.) There are contracts that specifically state that the man will marry into the woman's family.. sometimes it's not even for political purposes.. but if this isn't mentioned I think it's generally expected for the woman to switch families.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By comparison, the idea that Shinjo Altarnsai would be compelled to marry into the Ikoma (even when it was a family daimyo as a groom) rather than the other way around causes much wringing of hands and "you what?!?!" from the Unicorn in Curved Blades.

With it being both Matsu and Ikoma tradition, I'd happily accept it as standard Lion Clan tradition, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot in other clans.

Shosuro almost always marry 'outwards' because that's basically their job. Ditto a lot of the Doji outside their 'core hierarchy'.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I understand of the setting, I would say that a lot of (if not most of) samurai marriages are arranged by the families, and that those arrangements are often made when the future couple are still quite young. I would also say that these arrangements will involve quite a bit of negotiations, and the leveraged terms almost certainly involve who will marry into which family. Of course, both families will try to find the "best" match for their child, whether for a family political/business alliance, real/perceived increase of status, repayment/establishment of debt/favor, infiltration/spying, etc. Both sides will want to "win" something in the arrangement.

That said, situations will often change between the arrangement and the actual marriage, or after the marriage happens. Death, war or disagreement before marriage, will push families to scramble to find a new match, in which case they may accept less favorable terms. A heir might die or get bypassed, suddenly increasing the status of other children. An "average child" might quickly get famous (topaz champion...), or a "promising child" might end up poorly (lack of talent, lack of ambition, sickness, disability, etc.).

In conclusion, beside the current status and situation of each, you might want to consider the backgrounds of each of the two people marrying. Try to imagine the situation as it was back when the marriage was arranged and how the negotiations went. And, finally, consider if the families tried to modify such arrangement after the fact, while circumstances changed around them.

To illustrate (I don't know the exact timing of the following events, but please consider it for illustration purpose rather than exact Lore value):

1) Isawa Ujina meets with Akodo Toturi's father to arrange marriage between Kaede and Toturi. Toturi is the eldest son and therefore heir as Akodo daimyo and Lion Clan Champion, while Kaede is daughter of Master of Void, but is just starting her education as a shugenja. Among other terms, Kaede is to marry into the Akodo family.

2) Kaede evolves to become a very promising student of Void, to the point she is expected to exceed her father's power and maybe to become the next Master of Void. In the meantime, Toturi gets bypassed for his younger brother Arasou as Akodo daimyo and Lion Clan Champion. I would say that some people might have a look at the original arrangement and have doubts about some of the terms... Maybe it's Toturi that should marry into the Isawa family after all...

3) Then Arasou gets killed without a heir and Toturi ends up becoming Akodo daimyo, Lion Clan Champion and even wins Emerald Championship. Doubts are cast aside after all and everyone rejoices!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2018 at 3:26 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

By comparison, the idea that Shinjo Altarnsai would be compelled to marry into the Ikoma (even when it was a family daimyo as a groom) rather than the other way around causes much wringing of hands and "you what?!?!" from the Unicorn in Curved Blades.

With it being both Matsu and Ikoma tradition, I'd happily accept it as standard Lion Clan tradition, but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot in other clans.

Shosuro almost always marry 'outwards' because that's basically their job. Ditto a lot of the Doji outside their 'core hierarchy'.

Hence Altansarnai relinquishing her positiion as Champion unto her son, eschewing her superior status.

 

That was such a clumsy contrivance...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Hence Altansarnai relinquishing her positiion as Champion unto her son, eschewing her superior status.

 

That was such a clumsy contrivance...

A clan champion relinquishing their position isn't unique to the Khan of Khans, though. We're told Doji Hotaru became Crane Clan champion not after Doji Satsume's death but after he abdicated the position in her favour (although presumably due to Kakita Yoshi and Kakita Toshimoko repeatedly bugging him about it than feeling she was actually ready for it, because the Grinning Crane apparently never felt she was ready for anything).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

A clan champion relinquishing their position isn't unique to the Khan of Khans, though. We're told Doji Hotaru became Crane Clan champion not after Doji Satsume's death but after he abdicated the position in her favour (although presumably due to Kakita Yoshi and Kakita Toshimoko repeatedly bugging him about it than feeling she was actually ready for it, because the Grinning Crane apparently never felt she was ready for anything).

Are we sure it was actually the Championship or just the Doji family Daimyoship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Are we sure it was actually the Championship or just the Doji family Daimyoship?

Her Father's Daughter:

"Doji Satsume, who had stubbornly kept the clan championship for years even as he held the office of Emerald Champion: the Emperor’s personal champion, commander of the Imperial Legions, and most senior magistrate of Rokugan. Satsume, who had only reluctantly passed the Crane Clan championship to her at the urging of his brothers-in-law, Kakita Toshimoko and Kakita Yoshi. Satsume, who was now dead, and just when the Empire needed its Emerald Champion the most."

Honestly, I think the Crane championate is one of those locked to the Kami bloodlines (in this case the Doji family), so the one implies the other anyway.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Her Father's Daughter:

"Doji Satsume, who had stubbornly kept the clan championship for years even as he held the office of Emerald Champion: the Emperor’s personal champion, commander of the Imperial Legions, and most senior magistrate of Rokugan. Satsume, who had only reluctantly passed the Crane Clan championship to her at the urging of his brothers-in-law, Kakita Toshimoko and Kakita Yoshi. Satsume, who was now dead, and just when the Empire needed its Emerald Champion the most."

Honestly, I think the Crane championate is one of those locked to the Kami bloodlines (in this case the Doji family), so the one implies the other anyway.

Not necessarily, IIRC the old lore Satsume abdicated the Doji family Daimyoship unto Hoturi while remaining Clan Champion. That why I was in doubt if he had truly abdicated all his Crane Clan titles and not just the Doji titles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Not necessarily, IIRC the old lore Satsume abdicated the Doji family Daimyoship unto Hoturi while remaining Clan Champion. That why I was in doubt if he had truly abdicated all his Crane Clan titles and not just the Doji titles.

By the current lore, "Clan Champion" and "Daimyo of the Kami's family" are the same thing.  I also thought there were some exceptions in the old lore, but this doesn't seem to carry over.  This is why Toturi was forced out of being Akodo Daimyo so that his brother could take his place as clan champion.  The Akodo themselves largely seem to support Toturi, but the clan as a whole wanted someone who was more decisive to be their champion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the Clan Champion in each clan is also the daimyo of the ruling family. In each clan, the ruling family is the family directly descended from the founding Kami i.e. Hida in Crab, Doji in Crane, Togashi in Dragon, Akodo in Lion, Shiba in Phoenix, Bayushi in Scorpion and Shinjo in Unicorn. So, Doji Hotaru is both the Clan Champion and the daimyo of the Doji family. Now, this may change in the future (or not...I really don't know) but that's the current state of the art.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

By the current lore, "Clan Champion" and "Daimyo of the Kami's family" are the same thing.  I also thought there were some exceptions in the old lore, but this doesn't seem to carry over.  This is why Toturi was forced out of being Akodo Daimyo so that his brother could take his place as clan champion.  The Akodo themselves largely seem to support Toturi, but the clan as a whole wanted someone who was more decisive to be their champion.

Ok, lets make clear what I'm saying. I'm not saying the The Crane champion doesn't need to be from the Doj family. I'm saying that it is appropriate for a Lord to divest his lower titles unto his children. IE Satsume could bequeath the Doji Tittle on the heir apparent, Hotaru while keeping the higher title. This is a common feature on lots of nations and time periods. Witness Hideyoshi bequeathing the title of Kanpaku on Hidetsugu or Ieyasu granting Edo and the Shogunate to Hidetada is using strictly Japanese examples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Note, Phoenix are actually run by the Isawa and their Elemental Council, - the Phoenix Champion is from Shiba but is subservient to the Council

Indeed, the Phoenix are aberrant that way. The Shiba SHOULD be the ruling family, but because the Shiba long ago made themselves subservient to the Isawa, it's the Isawa (who usually also make up most of the Elemental Council) who run the clan...generally. The Shiba actually are much more the face of the clan to the rest of the Empire, and tend (along with the Champion) to be more involved in the clan's secular and military affairs. It makes for an interesting dynamic, with sometimes significant tension between the Shiba and the Isawa...not that they'd ever air their dirty laundry where those from outside the clan could see it, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Ok, lets make clear what I'm saying. I'm not saying the The Crane champion doesn't need to be from the Doj family. I'm saying that it is appropriate for a Lord to divest his lower titles unto his children. IE Satsume could bequeath the Doji Tittle on the heir apparent, Hotaru while keeping the higher title. This is a common feature on lots of nations and time periods. Witness Hideyoshi bequeathing the title of Kanpaku on Hidetsugu or Ieyasu granting Edo and the Shogunate to Hidetada is using strictly Japanese examples.

Sure, I guess a Clan Champion COULD choose to name someone else the daimyo of that clan's ruling family. The Champion being both sounds like another one of those (many) things in Rokugan that's not strictly codified in law or edicts or anything, but rather happens because it's customary...it's always the way it's been done. Whether it actually HAS happened, I'm not sure. Maybe? Buried somewhere amid a bazillion pages of L5R lore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Emerald Empire goes a long way to answering the original question: which is that status is the ultimate point of consideration. Gender doesn't matter as much (and indeed, the book goes out of the way to point out that matchmakers will match same-sex relationships, with the goal of avoiding potential strife/embarrassment from an altogether too incompatible marriage) as it used to, though some families have their traditions. Status seems to matter more than children 'for my clan' (which makes sense, if children are a goal, you can always find someone of lower status to marry into your family, to give you more kids), and since older/more experienced samurai tend to have higher status, I'm sure a workaround for political marriages is to marry old/oldest heirs to young/youngest ones in another family of generally higher status, which would be 'super' effective if the older individual is a full samurai, ideally with some political appointment, and the other is still a child.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/20/2018 at 5:50 PM, Isawa Miyu said:

Emerald Empire goes a long way to answering the original question: which is that status is the ultimate point of consideration. Gender doesn't matter as much (and indeed, the book goes out of the way to point out that matchmakers will match same-sex relationships, with the goal of avoiding potential strife/embarrassment from an altogether too incompatible marriage) as it used to, though some families have their traditions. Status seems to matter more than children 'for my clan' (which makes sense, if children are a goal, you can always find someone of lower status to marry into your family, to give you more kids), and since older/more experienced samurai tend to have higher status, I'm sure a workaround for political marriages is to marry old/oldest heirs to young/youngest ones in another family of generally higher status, which would be 'super' effective if the older individual is a full samurai, ideally with some political appointment, and the other is still a child.

Emerald Empire also brings up the topic of adult adoptions in their brief description of marriage. I've never read about this in past editions, but am I correct in thinking it's more about assistance living or social partnership where offspring are not the expected outcome? If so, why is it called an "adoption"? Are there any examples in L5R or outside references to help put this in historical or non-historical context?

Also, while it might be the case that older established samurai could maximize the number of progeny by marrying young as you suggested, I'm not touching that topic with a ten meter pole!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/23/2018 at 9:02 PM, T_Kageyasu said:

Emerald Empire also brings up the topic of adult adoptions in their brief description of marriage. I've never read about this in past editions, but am I correct in thinking it's more about assistance living or social partnership where offspring are not the expected outcome? If so, why is it called an "adoption"? Are there any examples in L5R or outside references to help put this in historical or non-historical context?

I assume you're referring to pages 52-53. Since matchmakers are involved, I would say it's possible that family lords will occasionally seek out to adopt when they have no heir, to continue their line. In this case, I would say they might agree with another lord who was blessed with many children, to adopt one of them deemed worthy and make them the heir.

Other than that, we have the "The Rising Wave" story in core set fictions which mentions adoption in the first page, which may even include heimin children being adopted into samurai families.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Agasha Kanetake said:

I assume you're referring to pages 52-53. Since matchmakers are involved, I would say it's possible that family lords will occasionally seek out to adopt when they have no heir, to continue their line. In this case, I would say they might agree with another lord who was blessed with many children, to adopt one of them deemed worthy and make them the heir.

Other than that, we have the "The Rising Wave" story in core set fictions which mentions adoption in the first page, which may even include heimin children being adopted into samurai families.

Thanks for your reading suggestion, I'm not yet caught up with the new storyline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...