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Happy December! Faction Themes

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Alright so this will basically be another wishlist/chat thread, but I'd like to focus more on overall themes (mechanical and fictional) more than individual units. Obviously there's lots of room to look at the fine details in these discussions, but the broader sense might be interesting to look at. As I understand it, the factions fall very roughly into these themes:

Daqan - heroic defenders of the realm. They probably have the most widespread access to high defense values, can make an excellent gunline with crossbows, and have two fairly support-oriented heroes. Now that worlds is over I'm starting to sink my teeth into what they can do when built for pure aggression with scouts, oathsworn, and offensive spearmen builds (3-speed turning charge at I4 is real) so they are definitely not a purely defensive faction. Units tend to operate pretty well independently, with support being a cherry on top more than an essential part of the gameplay.

Waiqar - inevitability, decay, spookiness. In my mind Waiqar should have access to strong attrition and morale builds, and to some extent they do. Wraiths, lancers, and Vorun'thul actually give them pretty good "weird" mobility, so they get to break some rules too. They sort of have morale game, though it's somewhat poorly supported at present, and can aim for control gameplay with blight. 

Latari - mobility, specialization, fragility. For the most part I love Latari design, and I think it feel the most cohesive of the factions. Each unit (bar perhaps Darnati, they're a bit weird) excels in its role, and the army supports itself very well. Good mobility options feature heavily, and terrain control with Overgrowth may or may not be a big deal. Collapsing under pressure is the classic elf tradeoff, but hedge shrouds may be a bit nuts.

Uthuk - aggression, cruelty, terror. Prior to the latest wave, Uthuk had in-your-face melee combat as their primary strength, with strong morale game. Also, incidentally, excellent terrain control, but that seems like an oversight more than their intended strength. Now, however, they get some pretty interesting control options - flexible blight generation, good blockers, position control, it's interesting to see how successful this side of things can be. Self-harm for additional effects is also a thing.

As a Daqan player, I'm interested in seeing more runic magic, and some kind of cleric unit (hero? figure upgrade? whole unit?). Buffing nearby units seems pretty spot on for Daqan, and magic and golems are cool and interesting.

What general themes would you like to see focused on?

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More necromancy for Waiqar.  Maro, Regeneration, and Necromancer are cool but turn out to be a little under-powered to feature heavily in a list.  I would like to see a new release that supports this unique theme of the Waiqar.  A couple of things that would help:

A new artifact or unique upgrade that compliments Maro's ability to raise dead.
A new siege/support unit that supports Necromancers and or Regeneration in some way, perhaps by adding empty trays to a unit.
A new infantry unit that makes use of regeneration and/or is a good target for Maro's skill, or a natural fit for Necromancers.

I'm sure there are some other ways to support this theme.

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I’d like some more self harm for Uthuk. 

 

I would also like some more necromancy and blight for Waiqar. I know they were being cautious as either mechanic could get badly out of hand, but I feel like a tiny bump is justifiable for both. 

Edited by Church14

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7 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

More necromancy for Waiqar.  Maro, Regeneration, and Necromancer are cool but turn out to be a little under-powered to feature heavily in a list.  I would like to see a new release that supports this unique theme of the Waiqar.  A couple of things that would help:

A new artifact or unique upgrade that compliments Maro's ability to raise dead.
A new siege/support unit that supports Necromancers and or Regeneration in some way, perhaps by adding empty trays to a unit.
A new infantry unit that makes use of regeneration and/or is a good target for Maro's skill, or a natural fit for Necromancers.

I'm sure there are some other ways to support this theme.

Addind full trays would be pretty crazy;  but addind wounds might work.  So you get 2 trays of reanimates, or 1 tray of death knights, or a carrion lancer with a wound on him.  L

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11 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

Addind full trays would be pretty crazy;  but addind wounds might work.  So you get 2 trays of reanimates, or 1 tray of death knights, or a carrion lancer with a wound on him.  L

I don't think any more adding full trays abilities are a good idea. Maro's ability as it is limits design space for Waiqar infantry.

However, adding empty trays to a unit might be an interesting way to compliment Necromancers and regeneration.  Something like a corpse wagon.  It can give regeneration [stable] to infantry within 1-3 and skill to add an empty tray to a nearby infantry unit.

For Maro, more reliable wound regeneration is necessary for his skill to shine.  Regenerative magic doesn't have enough opportunity to work. Half the time nothing will be in shooting range and the other half the time you can't shoot because there are no red runes.

 

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38 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

For Maro, more reliable wound regeneration is necessary for his skill to shine.  Regenerative magic doesn't have enough opportunity to work. Half the time nothing will be in shooting range and the other half the time you can't shoot because there are no red runes.

Just had an idea for a new unique upgrade for Maro:

Transfer Wounds - [Skill]  Choose a unit at range 1-3 and in line of sight.  Discard up to [stable] wounds from Maro and give them to the target unit.

This gives him the option of giving wounds out to a friendly unit to get some health back or to potentially get some damage onto a high armor enemy while healing even when there are no red runes.  It is also balanced a bit by the lower range and the fact that he needs to have wounds on him for it to work.  

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57 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

I don't think any more adding full trays abilities are a good idea. Maro's ability as it is limits design space for Waiqar infantry.

However, adding empty trays to a unit might be an interesting way to compliment Necromancers and regeneration.  Something like a corpse wagon.  It can give regeneration [stable] to infantry within 1-3 and skill to add an empty tray to a nearby infantry unit.

For Maro, more reliable wound regeneration is necessary for his skill to shine.  Regenerative magic doesn't have enough opportunity to work. Half the time nothing will be in shooting range and the other half the time you can't shoot because there are no red runes.

 

The problem with his wound recovery is that his shooting is based on runes that compete with his summoning; and that he cannot shoot and skill on the same turn.  He would have been so much better if he had a right dial skill.  

Since dials don't change, the best fix for him is going to be an artifact;  something that returns a wound without needing to shoot.  "If green runes are 2 or more, recover 1 wound in the end phase". 

 

 

 

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I'd like to see Latari able to be more threatening (maybe literally with brutal? It would be a thematic opportunity to mitigate their near-helplessness in the face of high defense units) near terrain. It's an interesting tension with their high mobility that has been lost in the mix as we've seen just one overgrowth-referencing card (by my count) come out since they had their core expansion units, and Uthuk's (likely accidental, I agree) dominance of terrain as a mobility and threat range enhancer has eclipsed any opportunity or incentive to use non-0 capacity terrain, much less stay close to it.

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7 hours ago, kaffis said:

I'd like to see Latari able to be more threatening (maybe literally with brutal? It would be a thematic opportunity to mitigate their near-helplessness in the face of high defense units) near terrain. It's an interesting tension with their high mobility that has been lost in the mix as we've seen just one overgrowth-referencing card (by my count) come out since they had their core expansion units, and Uthuk's (likely accidental, I agree) dominance of terrain as a mobility and threat range enhancer has eclipsed any opportunity or incentive to use non-0 capacity terrain, much less stay close to it.

A champion or equipment, if you are at range 1-green of overgrown terrain, gain brutal 1. I love latari overgrow tactics, and I want more!

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43 minutes ago, Jukey said:

A champion or equipment, if you are at range 1-green of overgrown terrain, gain brutal 1. I love latari overgrow tactics, and I want more!

Yep. I'd make it the infantry upgrade of the terrain ambush/scout sniper specialist hero I want to see. He'd have Brutal 1 while in 1-green of terrain, himself, with a 3-blue ranged attack. As I conceive him, he's my take on an infantry-only Latari hero; he'd perhaps have an alternate deployment option (with a second model perched in a tree or something to fit the "2-models per hero box" standard) that deploys directly into or touching terrain that upgrades him to Brutal Stable (exchanging a blue for a red?) but can't march or shift, and swaps out for his normal model with a skill action, unlocking his movement. Either way, he gives at least one non-unique unit in the army Scout.

Edited by kaffis

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I want to see a porcupine formation training upgrade for Daqan. Infantry only. At the end of an activation in which the unit did not march or shift, they may exhaust this card to add an inspiration token to this upgrade. While this upgrade has inspiration on it,  treat all edges of this unit as their front edge, and it has Precise X, where X is the number of inspiration tokens on this card. When this unit reveals a dial with a march or shift, ready this upgrade and the unit gains any inspiration tokens on this upgrade.

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About latari heroes, I was thinking about the fact that each other faction essentially got two heroes this last time (gorgemaw and beastmaster, vampire and beast vampire vorunthul, and savior or betrayer zach). I want a two part latari hero who isnt just a figure upgrade as the second figure.

I'm not complaining about faolan, he's amazing, just saying... however, daqan only sort of got a double.

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As much as I'd love to see more heroes, one of the funnest parts of the game is how you build a list that tailors to a given a hero, and how integrated into your army they feel.  When I am going to have the time to have lists built for every hero?  For the longest of time, I had a Maegan and an Aliana list.  Now, I've got mostly Faolan lists.  But I still love how Maegan and Aliana play would love to keep putting them on the table.   So while we're busy proposing new units, can someone invent a way to multiply time so that we can all play more games with these new units?

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Thematically, I think Waiqar has the same dichotomy as Nurgle from warhammer lore.

Yes, outwardly one would see skellingtons and think "decay" but, in truth, his legions are utterly unchanging. On the day he brought the black rain, he stripped the potential decay from his legion and remade them for eternity. Furthermore, his core motives could be defined as absolute order and peace, at least in his own mind.

So really, I'd replace "decay" with "stagnation and order".

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11 hours ago, Jukey said:

A champion or equipment, if you are at range 1-green of overgrown terrain, gain brutal 1. I love latari overgrow tactics, and I want more!

I feel like this is what Hunter's Guile was supposed to be (or at least should have been).  I'm a bit disappointed that FFG seems to have overvalued replacing a blue dice with a white dice in multiple upgrades.  I'm not sure I would even want Hunter's Guile at 1 point considering the opportunity cost of missing out on the other awesome Latari training upgrades.  But if it were +1 threat for 4 points I'd really consider building around it.

I also think it would be cool to give Scions a cheap unique upgrade that makes them a living overgrowth token.  That would go a long way to support overgrowth strategies in a more controllable way that isn't dependent on winning a bid and getting the terrain you want, where you want it.

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11 hours ago, kaffis said:

I want to see a porcupine formation training upgrade for Daqan. Infantry only. At the end of an activation in which the unit did not march or shift, they may exhaust this card to add an inspiration token to this upgrade. While this upgrade has inspiration on it,  treat all edges of this unit as their front edge, and it has Precise X, where X is the number of inspiration tokens on this card. When this unit reveals a dial with a march or shift, ready this upgrade and the unit gains any inspiration tokens on this upgrade.

I think the inspiration token thing is a bit convoluted, but I like the idea of something that rewards them for setting up and taking a charge. 

A Daqan only equipment upgrade that gives them a bonus for setting up somewhere and saying come get me would be nice.  Maybe something like: 

"If an enemy unit collides with your front edge while your dial is revealed, it takes damage equal to the distance it traveled this turn." 

Would be thematic to Daqan and would have some decent synergy with file leader.

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2 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

A Daqan only equipment upgrade that gives them a bonus for setting up somewhere and saying come get me would be nice.  Maybe something like: 

"If an enemy unit collides with your front edge while your dial is revealed, it takes damage equal to the distance it traveled this turn." 

Would be thematic to Daqan and would have some decent synergy with file leader.

Pikemen. Available as a stand-alone unit or as an upgrade to melee-only infantry. (Replace the front row of figures with pikemen figures, doesn't change toughness/wounds, multiple figures counts as a single upgrade).

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2 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

I think the inspiration token thing is a bit convoluted, but I like the idea of something that rewards them for setting up and taking a charge. 

A Daqan only equipment upgrade that gives them a bonus for setting up somewhere and saying come get me would be nice.  Maybe something like: 

"If an enemy unit collides with your front edge while your dial is revealed, it takes damage equal to the distance it traveled this turn." 

Would be thematic to Daqan and would have some decent synergy with file leader.

 

2 hours ago, Xelto said:

Pikemen. Available as a stand-alone unit or as an upgrade to melee-only infantry. (Replace the front row of figures with pikemen figures, doesn't change toughness/wounds, multiple figures counts as a single upgrade).

 

One if Daqan’s current themes appears to be dial manipulation. Either changing initiative or upgrades that change effect depending on dial reveal or not. Think Coiled Stance. This “thorns if dial is revealed and didn’t move” kind of fits. 

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I'd love to see a suite of Daqan upgrades that encourage more rigid and regimented formations of multiple units.  There would be different upgrades for different "positions" in a formation that would bolster the unit in diverse ways allowing various units to work in a given position, albeit with different benefits.

For example,

Vanguard: If this unit is within range 1-2 of at least 2 (maybe 3?) other friendly units, add 1 surge to its ranged attack rolls, gain impact 1, and gain protected 2 while engaged with an enemy.  
Rearguard: If this unit is withing range 1-2 of at least 2 (maybe 3?) other friendly units, those friendly units, do not block this unit's line of sight, gain [Skill]: "perform a 2-shift".
Flank (I know this name doesn't match with the other names, but bear with me, I am not that clever): If this unit is withing range of 1-2 of at least 2 other friendly units, increase the speed of this unit's march actions by 1, and gain steadfast [Fear, Doubt].

I know these exact cards would probably suck a lot, but the idea is that you would try (and hopefully do better than I did in the last 5 minutes that I tried to articulate this idea) to create upgrades that match with certain positions in a formation but are flexible enough in their function to make most of them good on ranged and melee units.  I would probably make different formation/position cards for certain factions since their formation abilities really should be a bit different.

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13 hours ago, Willange said:

I'd love to see a suite of Daqan upgrades that encourage more rigid and regimented formations of multiple units.  There would be different upgrades for different "positions" in a formation that would bolster the unit in diverse ways allowing various units to work in a given position, albeit with different benefits.

For example,

Vanguard: If this unit is within range 1-2 of at least 2 (maybe 3?) other friendly units, add 1 surge to its ranged attack rolls, gain impact 1, and gain protected 2 while engaged with an enemy.  
Rearguard: If this unit is withing range 1-2 of at least 2 (maybe 3?) other friendly units, those friendly units, do not block this unit's line of sight, gain [Skill]: "perform a 2-shift".
Flank (I know this name doesn't match with the other names, but bear with me, I am not that clever): If this unit is withing range of 1-2 of at least 2 other friendly units, increase the speed of this unit's march actions by 1, and gain steadfast [Fear, Doubt].

I know these exact cards would probably suck a lot, but the idea is that you would try (and hopefully do better than I did in the last 5 minutes that I tried to articulate this idea) to create upgrades that match with certain positions in a formation but are flexible enough in their function to make most of them good on ranged and melee units.  I would probably make different formation/position cards for certain factions since their formation abilities really should be a bit different.

I like the idea of position related upgrades in Daqan, but the execution would have to be pretty simple. Currently there is a fair amount of bookkeeping in Runewars. Having to make multiple measurements and track multiple effects from a single upgrade is probably too much.

There is one positional upgrade in the game already for Waiqar that works well:  

Upgrade%20-%20Profane%20Banner%20Bearer.

Single effect with one measurement. It's good but not oppressive because it's a figure upgrade with clear counter play.  That's probably the best example of where to start.  

Also, Hawthorne and Rallying Cornicen have the effect you are looking for to a lesser extent. You often deploy them in the center of your army to get the maximum effect from them.  Just adding one or two more positional benefits might get it to the point you are looking for.

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