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Poe Is Weird

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1) Can Poe use his ability to perform a Daredevil boost?

2) After performing an ion maneuver, during the Perform Action step, Poe takes a Focus action. Can he now use his ability to perform another action?

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Just now, thespaceinvader said:

1 personally I think not but I've seen it argued both ways.

2 no. You can only take the focus action and no linked or otherwise queued actions during your Perform Action step after doing the ion move.

 

That 2 is mostly correct, but not quite.  It doesn't necessarily limit multiple or linked actions, but does limit you to only taking the focus action.  This would only theoretically matter if you had the ability to take the same action multiple times, but it could come up in the future.

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42 minutes ago, Maui. said:

1) Can Poe use his ability to perform a Daredevil boost?

2) After performing an ion maneuver, during the Perform Action step, Poe takes a Focus action. Can he now use his ability to perform another action?

1) YES

2) NO... per the rules reference.. "During the Perform Action step, the ship can perform only the focus action."

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57 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

1) Can Poe use his ability to perform a Daredevil boost?

1) YES

Is there something I'm missing which makes you think this would work? 

His ability reads: "After you perform an action, you may spend 1 charge  to perform a white action, treating it as red. "

Daredevil reads: "While you perform a white boost action, you may treat it as red to use the [1-hard left] or [1-hard right] template instead."

The action you get from his ability is treated as red, so when Daredevil trigger is checked, it's a red boost action, not a white one which Daredevil requires to work.

 

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Hrm.

Both Daredevil and Poe require you to be performing a White action, and then treat it as red.

Thinking about older 1e effects (Dalan Oberos Starviper + Stay On Target), it worked.  Both effects transformed a white maneuver into a red one, and didn't interfere with each other.

By extension, I think I'm kind of leaning towards Daredevil Poe working. 

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19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Hrm.

Both Daredevil and Poe require you to be performing a White action, and then treat it as red.

Thinking about older 1e effects (Dalan Oberos Starviper + Stay On Target), it worked.  Both effects transformed a white maneuver into a red one, and didn't interfere with each other.

By extension, I think I'm kind of leaning towards Daredevil Poe working. 

I've been assuming it doesn't work.  If it did work, would it result in one or two stress?  Cuz if someone tells me I can 1-hard boost with Poe and come out with only one stress, I've found my newly stapled Poe talent.

Edited by gennataos

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9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I've been assuming it doesn't work.  If it did work, would it result in one or two stress?  Cuz if someone tells me I can 1-hard boost with Poe and come out with only one stress, I've found my newly stapled Poe talent.

If it works it's definitely only one stress. It's still just a red action, there's no such thing as a double-red-action.

And, agreed. I'm reasonably sure the ion maneuver thing doesn't work but I'm really wondering about that Daredevil Poe.

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Yup.  IIRC Dalan/SoT worked because SoT didn't care what colour the revealed action for it was - you could SoT from a red move to another move, treating it as red.  So it's not a complete analogy.  Treating a red move as a red move still results in a red move.  it doesn't answer what happens when two different things try to treat a white move as red with different triggers.

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2 hours ago, gennataos said:

Is there something I'm missing which makes you think this would work? 

His ability reads: "After you perform an action, you may spend 1 charge  to perform a white action, treating it as red. "

Daredevil reads: "While you perform a white boost action, you may treat it as red to use the [1-hard left] or [1-hard right] template instead."

The action you get from his ability is treated as red, so when Daredevil trigger is checked, it's a red boost action, not a white one which Daredevil requires to work.

 

this is all solid reasoning.

Poes ability triggers to preform a white action treating it as red, daredevil is while you preform it and poe has made it red while you preform it so daredevil cant work.

I cant see any other way this interaction can possibly work.

 

 

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I think the combo of Poe's ability and DD does work. Per the rules you don't receive the stress until the action is completed or you fail a red action. Poe can spend a charge to perform a white action treating it as red. He opts to perform the DD action and after completing it, or failing to complete it, gains stress. 

On the matter of gaing stress, I think it's possible for him to come out of the turn with two stress. Once for using his ability and once for DareDevil. This I'm less sure about. If he used his ability to take a white action, say the Lock action, it's obvious that he'd only pick up one stress. Using his ability and DD, to me atleast, is like doing a red maneuver through a debris field. One stress for the maneuver and one for the debris field. 

Another reason I think he'd gain two stress from using his ability and DD is that you gain a stress from a failed red maneuver. As an example, Poe uses his ability and DD and juuussst kisses an asteroid. He's failed the maneuver. Per the rules and DD, chooses he gains stress. At this point he should finish paying the cost of using his ability and gain a second stress.

This is just my thoughts on the combo.

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5 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I think the combo of Poe's ability and DD does work. Per the rules you don't receive the stress until the action is completed or you fail a red action. Poe can spend a charge to perform a white action treating it as red. He opts to perform the DD action and after completing it, or failing to complete it, gains stress. 

On the matter of gaing stress, I think it's possible for him to come out of the turn with two stress. Once for using his ability and once for DareDevil. This I'm less sure about. If he used his ability to take a white action, say the Lock action, it's obvious that he'd only pick up one stress. Using his ability and DD, to me atleast, is like doing a red maneuver through a debris field. One stress for the maneuver and one for the debris field. 

Another reason I think he'd gain two stress from using his ability and DD is that you gain a stress from a failed red maneuver. As an example, Poe uses his ability and DD and juuussst kisses an asteroid. He's failed the maneuver. Per the rules and DD, chooses he gains stress. At this point he should finish paying the cost of using his ability and gain a second stress.

This is just my thoughts on the combo.

The stress has nothing to do with it... poe makes the ability red, DD says while you perform a white action... the action is not white while you perform it, its red from poes ability so DD cannot trigger as you are performing a red action.

stress literally has nothing to do with this interaction or why it works or does not work.

Edited by Icelom

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Yeah, I couldn't possibly see two stress, I don't think that'd be a decent argument.

So.

Clearly, Poe or Daredevil could not work with red actions.  Poe with Squad Leader, for example, doesn't work.  Or Daredevil on a HWK, or an A-Wing using Vectored Thrusters.  Those are red actions, start-to-finish.

But this is a fairly different situation.

At what point in time is there a difference between a red action which is itself red, and a white action you're treating as red?  At the beginning, it is a white action.  By the end, it is a red action.  Is there time to treat it as white for multiple effects in the middle?  Is it possible to apply two "treat a white action as red" effects?

The more I think about it, no.

But why?

Because no two things in X-Wing happen at the same time.  I feel like the Ability Queue rule is the most relevant here.

The ability Queue is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of the ability queue using the following rules:

  1. If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.
  2. If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.
  3. If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

If they could be applied simultaneously, I totally think Daredevil and Poe could stack.  But I don't think we can apply both effects simultaneously.

But even this isn't completely certain.  The triggers for Daredevil and Poe aren't the same.  The best answer remains, I believe, @thespaceinvader's: a FAQ would be ideal.

On 12/3/2018 at 11:52 AM, gennataos said:

I've been assuming it doesn't work.  If it did work, would it result in one or two stress?  Cuz if someone tells me I can 1-hard boost with Poe and come out with only one stress, I've found my newly stapled Poe talent.

If it does work, it'd be 1 stress.  There's no such thing as a double-red action, like how Damaged Engine increasing the difficulty of your manuevers and already-red maneuvers stay at red and 1 stress.

Edited by theBitterFig

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23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, I couldn't possibly see two stress, I don't think that'd be a decent argument.

So.

Clearly, Poe or Daredevil could not work with red actions.  Poe with Squad Leader, for example, doesn't work.  Or Daredevil on a HWK, or an A-Wing using Vectored Thrusters.  Those are red actions, start-to-finish.

But this is a fairly different situation.

At what point in time is there a difference between a red action which is itself red, and a white action you're treating as red?  At the beginning, it is a white action.  By the end, it is a red action.  Is there time to treat it as white for multiple effects in the middle?  Is it possible to apply two "treat a white action as red" effects?

The more I think about it, no.

But why?

Because no two things in X-Wing happen at the same time.  I feel like the Ability Queue rule is the most relevant here.

The ability Queue is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of the ability queue using the following rules:

  1. If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.
  2. If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.
  3. If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

If they could be applied simultaneously, I totally think Daredevil and Poe could stack.  But I don't think we can apply both effects simultaneously.

But even this isn't completely certain.  The triggers for Daredevil and Poe aren't the same.  The best answer remains, I believe, @thespaceinvader's: a FAQ would be ideal.

If it does work, it'd be 1 stress.  There's no such thing as a double-red action, like how Damaged Engine increasing the difficulty of your manuevers and already-red maneuvers stay at red and 1 stress.

Poe says to treat it as red, daredevil says while you preform a white action.

Poe says do it and treat it red, daredevil is while you are doing a white. Daredevil clearly does not work on poes ability it's a red boost and daredevil needs it to be a white.

How is this not clear?

Edited by Icelom

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7 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Poe says to treat it as red, daredevil says while you preform a white action.

Poe says do it and treat it red, daredevil is while you are doing a white. Daredevil clearly does not work on poes ability it's a red boost and daredevil needs it to be a white.

How is this not clear?

Because, at the start, either Poe or Daredevil starts with a White action, and eventually turns it Red at some point in the process.  How is that not clear?  That's the literal card text.

Since in both cases, it's a white Boost to begin with, it's not unclear thinking to consider the possibility that both these "treat a white as a red" effects could stack.

But go ahead and insult me after I just make a long post that's 95% agreeing with your position.

Great idea.

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Because, at the start, either Poe or Daredevil starts with a White action, and eventually turns it Red at some point in the process.  How is that not clear?  That's the literal card text.

Since in both cases, it's a white Boost to begin with, it's not unclear thinking to consider the possibility that both these "treat a white as a red" effects could stack.

But go ahead and insult me after I just make a long post that's 95% agreeing with your position.

Great idea.

Daredevil does not start with a white action.

Card_Upgrade_2.png

Daredevil is WHILE you preform a white boost not before. 

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1  to perform a white action, treating it as red. "-poe

Poe says to treat it as red, daredevil is while you preform it... It's red so daredevil does not work.

No part of those 2 ability start at the same time.

Treat the action as red. So you do the now red action daredevil has no white action to trigger off.

This is not complicated.

 

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4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, I couldn't possibly see two stress, I don't think that'd be a decent argument.

So.

Clearly, Poe or Daredevil could not work with red actions.  Poe with Squad Leader, for example, doesn't work.  Or Daredevil on a HWK, or an A-Wing using Vectored Thrusters.  Those are red actions, start-to-finish.

But this is a fairly different situation.

At what point in time is there a difference between a red action which is itself red, and a white action you're treating as red?  At the beginning, it is a white action.  By the end, it is a red action.  Is there time to treat it as white for multiple effects in the middle?  Is it possible to apply two "treat a white action as red" effects?

The more I think about it, no.

But why?

Because no two things in X-Wing happen at the same time.  I feel like the Ability Queue rule is the most relevant here.

The ability Queue is used to resolve the timing of multiple abilities that trigger during the same timing window. Abilities are resolved from the front of the queue to the back of the queue. These abilities are added to the back of the ability queue using the following rules:

  1. If both players have abilities that triggered from the same event, the abilities are added to the ability queue in player order.
  2. If a player has multiple abilities that triggered from the same event, that player chooses the order that those abilities are added to the ability queue.
  3. If resolving an effect from the ability queue triggers additional effects, they are added to the front of the ability queue using the above rules.

If they could be applied simultaneously, I totally think Daredevil and Poe could stack.  But I don't think we can apply both effects simultaneously.

But even this isn't completely certain.  The triggers for Daredevil and Poe aren't the same.  The best answer remains, I believe, @thespaceinvader's: a FAQ would be ideal.

If it does work, it'd be 1 stress.  There's no such thing as a double-red action, like how Damaged Engine increasing the difficulty of your manuevers and already-red maneuvers stay at red and 1 stress.

Thank you for copying over the ability que text for direct reference and I agree with your position that it probably doesn't work. Unfortunately ffg did not spell out in the rules whether resolving one ability can/cannot block further abilities in the que.

Luckily there is an example in the appendix! To further attempt to explain your point about the que I'll reference p.19 where there's an appropriately convoluted example involving Jake Ferrell's ability. At the end of the example there are still two instances of his ship ability (VT) left in the que:

""The only abilities remaining in the ability queue are two instances of Jake Farrell’s ship ability. Since he is stressed, he cannot perform an action so neither ability has an effect and the ability queue empties."" -rules reference p.19

Their statement that the stress blocks these further actions (instead of the more obvious reason that they were already performed) leads me to believe that DD cannot be completed because the Poe ability will que up first and turn the boost red before DD gets to look at it.

At the end of the day though I agree with you @theBitterFig and @thespaceinvader that this will only truly be settled by FAQ/RR update, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised by a 'cuz we said so' ruling 😐

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32 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

You actually do start with a white boost with DareDevil. The card restrictions are Small Base and White Boost.

You guys are focusing on the wrong card. Re-read Poe's ability.

swz19_a1_poe-dameron.pngCard_Upgrade_2.png

The additional action Poe's ability enables becomes RED. In this case it would be a RED BOOST. Daredevil requires a WHITE BOOST to be performed for it to trigger. You cannot Daredevil a Poe PTL Boost...

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46 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

You actually do start with a white boost with DareDevil. The card restrictions are Small Base and White Boost.

That is the pre requisite to equip daredevil... omg. Has nothing to do with triggering it.

Wtf.

Edited by Icelom

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4 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Thank you for copying over the ability queue text for direct reference and I agree with your position that it probably doesn't work. Unfortunately ffg did not spell out in the rules whether resolving one ability can/cannot block further abilities in the que.

Luckily there is an example in the appendix! To further attempt to explain your point about the que I'll reference p.19 where there's an appropriately convoluted example involving Jake Ferrell's ability. At the end of the example there are still two instances of his ship ability (VT) left in the que:

""The only abilities remaining in the ability queue are two instances of Jake Farrell’s ship ability. Since he is stressed, he cannot perform an action so neither ability has an effect and the ability queue empties."" -rules reference p.19

Their statement that the stress blocks these further actions (instead of the more obvious reason that they were already performed) leads me to believe that DD cannot be completed because the Poe ability will que up first and turn the boost red before DD gets to look at it.

At the end of the day though I agree with you @theBitterFig and @thespaceinvader that this will only truly be settled by FAQ/RR update, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised by a 'cuz we said so' ruling 😐

Oh, and looking again, Daredevil isn't part of the ability queue.  I was wrong on that.

It's a Replacement Effect (Ability, p.2).

Some abilities are substitutive in nature—they replace how an effect would normally resolve. These abilities use the words “would” and “instead.”

• Replacement effects are not added to the end of the ability queue as they are resolved at the timing of the effect they are replacing.

• When a replacement effect resolves, the replaced effect is treated as having not occurred.

So what then?  There's this:

If there are multiple replacement effects that could substitute for the same effect, only one effect can be substituted for the original effect.

◊ For example, a ship is about to gain a focus token and has both the ability “Before you would gain a focus token, gain an evade token instead” and the ability “Before you would gain a focus token, gain a calculate token instead.” Only one of those abilities could be resolved.

Is Poe a Replacement effect?  I think there's a case that Poe replaces a white action with a red version of the same action.  "Treating as" isn't in the rules text as an example of a replacement effect, but common sense says this is a replacement.

//

Here's the thing. There's an obvious real-world analogy.  Daredevil says to Poe "We're both in the small town of White Boost, and we're both headed to the city Red Boost, let's share a ride."

7lMC.gif

giphy.gif

So our task is to explain why Poe and Daredevil can't carpool together (no matter how tempting that fic would be). 

Saying "Daredevil doesn't start with a white boost" does not do that, because obviously it does.  A white boost treated as red isn't exactly the same thing as a red boost... it was white to start, but is it white long enough for Daredevil to hitch a ride?

I guess the answer is that there isn't room on the motorcycle.  Not that Daredevil and Poe are different, but that by being the same, they cannot both happen.

21Iq.gif

How the **** did Nic Cage get in here?!?!

giphy.gif

 

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