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Muelmuel

Huge ships and ramming

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18 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Oh good, more complaining about The Last Jedi. Just what I wanted today.

Why so defensive of TLJ? Or just tired of the sheer magnitude of firepower? ;) It is a trend I've noticed among all the the 'third-party media people' in Armada that intrigues me.

Anyway. I'm not sure why berating people who express how they sincerely feel Disney destroyed one of the most important and influential IPs ever created is much better. Not that I'm saying YOU'RE doing so - but it often comes after the sentence you just postes.

I've at least never seen old school SW/EU fans assume the moral high ground on the topic, so I'm a bit unsure where all the dislike for people disliking TLJ and Disney Wars is about.

Edited by Cpt. Caine

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Tired of not being able to have a discussion on a game system without a movie that came out a year ago being brought up at every turn.  We get it, you don't like it.  That is fine.  We like it.  That is also fine.  Please stop bringing it up every time someone mentions something just barely remotely related.  It is exhausting, and derails discussion of the game.

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1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

As far as I know, there is no novelization of this and it's never been organized and put together in one place, but it's something I've pieced together from a variety of sources over the years given my interest in space combat in Star Wars, with the Battle of Endor being for a long time the only example of it.

A good starting point is YouTube, in that you can find deleted scenes from RotJ.  These include amongst them some additional pilot footage (namely a Sullustan and Mon Cal in B-Wing cockpits) and scenes of Madine swiveling around on the captain's chair of a Mon Cal as he directs his task force during the would-have-been battle with the SSD.  You can also find additional rough and unfinished pilot footage from RotJ.

Other sources have included things like a random behind the scenes specials of RotJ or special effects, snippets of original story drafts or storyboards (which I found by chance while on a forum about custom-building Rebel Flight Suit Costumes and Helmets ... I was trying to figure out some custom movie-accurate paintschemes for X-Wing), and old technical manuals that identify the domes on top of Star Destroyers not as shield generators/projectors (as they are now) but as specifically sensor and targeting array domes).

Even some scenes that did make it into the film contain some hints about this.  In scenes from the Executor's bridge when the battle has really gotten underway, you can see a slew of Mon Cals filling the view, typically in between the SSD and the other ISDs.  This would have been Madine's task force assaulting the SSD.  You can also see when Arvel's A-Wing crashes into the bridge of the SSD that both arrays are flaming and destroyed, even though we only ever see A-Wings destroy the port array.  Most importantly, as the Executor is crashing into the DSII, you can see flames protruding from underneath it by the engines... this is likely the damage done to particular engine ports to steer the SSD into the DSII.



 

I see, well, I'm glad you took the time to type it out. It definitely fills holes. I'd noticed some of those on screen clues and had been curious. 

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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20 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Tired of not being able to have a discussion on a game system without a movie that came out a year ago being brought up at every turn.  We get it, you don't like it.  That is fine.  We like it.  That is also fine.  Please stop bringing it up every time someone mentions something just barely remotely related.  It is exhausting, and derails discussion of the game.

I think you missed the mark, Buddy.

The topic had devloped into a discussion about how SSD overlapping could be thematic and thus discussions on the only canon instances of an SSD colliding with other objects we have.

The instance of Magic Hyperspace in TLJ is analogous and thus also relevant.

I'm not going to get cottonmouthed about my opinion on the topic when it is just an aside or when it ia relevant for the topic.

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3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I hate to be a broken record, so I'll keep this as brief as possible.

☹️  Don’t be a broken record - broken records are annoying.  Beat dead horses instead, it’s way more therapeutic.  And fun!

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31 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Get off my forums.

This isn’t your forum.  It’s our forum.

Its ok to be annoyed at stuff.

Its ok for a forum to include diverting opinions.

Its not ok to strawman everyone who disagrees with you.

It’s ok to rant about Star Wars.  It’s been ok since Ewoks, Leia is your sister, second Death Star.  It’s no more or less than people moaning about music/art trends, or politics, or a referees decision in a sports game, or a band selling out.  It’s just people blowing off steam.

Its ok to not like the militant agenda and laughable hypocracy of some people in upper management of the Star Wars franchise.

I hope no one leaves the forum, and more people join.

Edited by Bakura83

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1 hour ago, geek19 said:

The following is not an attack against you, specifically. The problem is that everyone who hates TLJ turns any reason to talk about it into another diatribe. New ship? I hated the ships in TLJ! Thoughts about how game mechanics will work with the SSD? Man, I'm sure glad the game mechanics of TLJ aren't here! Who's your favorite character on the Rebels TV show? No one from TLJ, that's who!

It doesn't relate to the topic at hand because someone hated a movie, and it's the same stupid whining reiterated over and over again. We get it, (the general) you didn't like the hyperspace ram because it messes with how you thought the magic button works that moves people at the speed of plot. I DON'T CARE. I liked the scene, I liked the characters, the message, and the movie itself. I had a good time at the theater, and then I went home and didn't obsessively yell at everyone until Rian Johnson was never allowed to look at Star Wars again because it's the only way I can be happy. 90 percent of the complaints involve not liking how the new Star Wars didn't science the space magic well enough to blah blah blah. How dare Holdo not tell my magic space boyfriend Poe Dameron her super plan because he's my surrogate! Why didn't Luke come in and save everyone like he was supposed to in my fan fiction! How DARE a story writer make a choice I didn't agree with? Who does he think he is?

I don't care. It doesn't relate to Armada the game, and I've been hearing it for a year now because some nerd can't shut up and thinks if they yell at me on the internet loud enough I'll suddenly realize that I hated TLJ all along. The true hatred were the friends we made along the way!

Why are people leaving the forums? Because garbage nerds won't shut up about hating TLJ. It's like hanging out with a vegan CrossFit fan who's also anti-vax. That's how often we hear it.

And I'm not even mentioning when someone mentions "SJW" or "feminist" in their criticism that proves they aren't worth listening to at all, with respect to anything ever.  Get off my forums with that, you're not welcome here.

Hmm. This is off-topic to the meta-discussion on whether what was said was on-topic for the discussion at hand. But I think it is worthwhile and relevant to debate - if nothing else, then in the hope that I (and perhaps others) will gain some understanding of the perspective you're presenting and representing here. I also actually think I might be able to explain to you why my position (as I represent the 'other side') is actually much more worthwhile and rational than you appear to believe.

I will, however, first reiterate that I find it highly on-topic to discuss Star Wars on a forum about a simulation of the universe in a capacity or another. Highly so for a game that is so strictly thematic.

I see a few angles to address your reply from. I sincerely hope you will read past part A, which is perhaps a bit more contentious than I would have liked.

A) I'm not sure I see anything in your text that in any way implies that you're not equally guilty of sidedness and at that, as someone who believes the other side holds an untenable or - as you express it yourself - worthless position. I haven't been an active part of the Armada forums for long, but I haven't noticed anyone as prickly, obstinate or disrespectful as people who either defend TLJ or who - without defending TLJ - attack people critiquing TLJ.

I'm sincerely a bit surprised by you (you ARE one of the writers of CGYSO, right? I'm just making sure here. I kind of feel like I know you since I've read all your stuff and all) saying you don't find that one - for an example - needs to respect people who critique feminism or the SJW-concept? That's, apologise my french here, ****** up.

I personally sincerely lament that the Star Wars community (the first sociologically significant unit of fandom perhaps ever established) haven't made a greater effort to help guide Disney away from their current course (well, before Solo flunked completely in the aftermath of TLJ) and perhaps more generally, that so few people in the community had developed a thorough understanding of the canon system and the Expanded Universe. I halfway feel people who call themelves Star Wars fans, and who are not helping in trying to get Disney to respect what they purchased, are betraying the community. I also, as a scientist and for a myriad of reasons I won't get into here, find the political correctness, third wave feminism et cetera to be one of the most troubling (if non-existential like for an example climate or nuclear warfare) threats against Western society of the last (and probably coming) decade.

Does that mean I would find people who would speak of such things, or people who confess to liking TLJ or, indeed, defend it's qualities as 'not worth listening to at all, with respect to anything ever'? Nope. And being of the the opposite opinion (which I highly doubt you sincerely are) is anathema to any form of civilised discourse and sound development of ideas.

B) Bear with me here. If you found the last section annoying, I'm sure this will sit better with you as it departs from more contentious topics.

On a more technical level, I notice in your reply that you position yourself quite far out on the spectrum of "Fantasy Realism". Do you know the term? I find that it is often a primary source of conflicts between "nerds" (I'll gladly pin that term on me any day in relation to things I care about, by the way) and what we could call non-nerds but sometimes also just people who think differently.

I have spent the majority of my hobby life engaging in hobbies involving what I will call 'campaign worlds'. Be it Star Wars, Tolkien's universe, Faerûn (the largest fantasy setting I know of, tied to D&D), White Wolf's The World of Darkness, and so forth. To people, like me, who've spent hours and hours learning the intricacies not only of character building in D&D or fleet building in Armada but the tiniest facts in the lore of the campaign world/universe - there is an inherent value in the consistency of the internal realisms of the world.

Fantasy and realism are not in any sort of way conflicting concepts from the viewpoint of the other end of the spectrum than you seem to land at. To me - and I assure you for a lot of other people who believe Disney is ruining Star Wars and tearing it apart piece by piece - the blatant disrespect is not just something they pull out of their ***, nor are the strict realism they (we) believe applies in Star Wars.

I think you might perhaps completely disregard the 'lore' or 'nerd' perspective because you might not comprehend it. To me personally, the Magic Hyperspace completely ruins the Star Wars canon as it is and take away all possible pleasure I could derive from Star Wars stories written in the Disney Wars canon. Many people feel this way. They are not stupid or trolling. They consider the strict and intricate lore-derived rules of fantasy realism in Star Wars to be INTEGRAL to the experience of Star wars. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that Star Wars is first of all a universe and secondarily as story/a series of movies. It is enjoyable BECAUSE it has internal consistency and because it adheres by its own rules.

I don't love Star Wars because of Luke, Han or Leia (although I did as a child). I love it because it is the most developed universe that exists. Where does it primarily exist? In the Expanded Universe. Which Disney threw out and which no official products from anywhere is supporting. It was then supplanted by a new universe that is establishing major plot holes even within the very limited canon and rehashing (basically by the very word) various things from the Expanded Universe (I don't think a single character/plot line - with the exception of most things in TLJ - isn't things take from the EU, but often applied in a way that conflicts with Star Wars fantasy realism).

Star Wars, I should mention, is one of the least strict campaign worlds I've ever loved. And therefore I have more sympathy than in many other cases for people holding that there isn't any realism in the world. I also know that the very first counter-argument those contrarians who're knowledgeable of the greater Star Wars universe that is the EU and what not will use, is that the Star Wars canon was deeply internally inconsistent before the canon wipe when Disney purchased Star Wars. What those people don't understand, is that an intricate system of canon levels existed in the old Star Wars system that also involved an almost free-market capitalist freedom for writers, gamer developers and others to do 'official fan-fiction' in the shape of books, comics and what not. It meant a lot of content existed, but some of it also didn't count - or was effectively more fan fiction than canon due to higher levels of canon being supreme.

Thus, the old Star Wars canon did hold explanations for just about anything that one could posit as to being a plot hole or internal consistency problem in the Star Wars world - many of the worst ones present in either the original or prequel trilogy, but fixed with later releases. It did NOT contain problems like the Magic Hyperspace incident (or other major, major discrepancies in the Disney Wars films), which sunders the entire Space battle logic (that is unrealistic with the physics we know, but is per definition completely realistic within the Star Wars fantasy realism) of Star Wars apart.

You may not agree with that, but insisting on disrespecting that a major portion of the Star Wars fanbase finds meaning in something you do not is - I find - a rather unappealing trait of character. I, again, hope your position stems from a misunderstanding or a lack of understanding rather than intent.

 

EDIT:

@Bakura83 pretty much said most of part A in a very good and also much funnier TL;DR version :D

 

Edited by Cpt. Caine

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1 hour ago, Cpt. Caine said:

I halfway feel people who call themelves Star Wars fans, and who are not helping in trying to get Disney to respect what they purchased, are betraying the community

Well, I read the whole post, and I'm sure other responses are forthcoming, but I'd like to address this.  Because we all want the same things out of Star Wars, all perceive Disney's interpretation as "wrong," all swore allegiance to a group of people because we thought they liked the same things, and are basically the Borg.  If this were in any way true, no argument would exist in the first place.

Here's the kicker: I don't like TLJ either.  I think the plot is bad, the writing is bad, the character decisions are odd, and important opportunities get thrown in the gutter; but the more I hear other arguments against TLJ, the more I end up defending it.  Not just because of the pathetic "diversity sux" claim sometimes thrown around (yes, SJW is used as a derogatory term now, and yes, people will think less of you if you use it,) but because I'm sick of hearing about it, and nobody shoves how much they love it in my face.

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