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Captain Ordo N-11

Admonition vs Foresight

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I keep seeing people say Admonition is better than Foresight and I am curious as to why. At med-long range it seems like Foresight is way better plus it basically gives you advanced projectors too. I could see Admonition being a bit better at close range since you can discard useless evades. Although if you are using Mothma I think Foresight is always better. Am I right in assuming you can spend an evade for its effect then discard the same evade for Admonitions effect? Personally it seems like they are at least equal, maybe one is better than the other in some situations. Am I totally wrong? Can someone that uses both a lot tell me why Admonition is so much better?

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As somebody who a while back asked that exact same question, here’s my take:

 

Admonition can always trigger so long as you have defense tokens left. Foresight can be stopped by enough accuracies. 

 

Admonition works at all ranges. Foresight works best at long, okay at medium, not well up close. Mon Mothma changes this math and does make Foresight a lot better. That being said, you can redirect to extra shields with Foresight which isn’t a joke, 

 

The theoretical upper limit on usefulness goes to Foresight. Being able to cancel two dice is awesome. Being able to do so twice a turn for multiple turns would be amazing. When push comes to shove, Admonition’s effect triggers more often as you wanted to get close anyway. Also, MC30s tend to not spend a lot of time in combat. 

Edited by Church14

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The BEST defense in the game is dice cancellation. Sure Foresight let's you cancel 2 at long range, but is then useless (rerolls = useless, you are still usually taking damage). Even Mothma you cancel 2 at medium, but then you get close and it's useless. Admonition lets you do it at your preferred combat range - close. It's the only effect that lets you do that.

When you are taking damage, ie not cancelling dice, you are running out of shields, when you are out of shields Foresights wanna be advanced projector effect is useless too.

What sets Admonition above Foresight is how this upgrade works in combination with double evades and double redirects as a suite to cancel dice and then discard tokens as they become useless so an Admonition never is defenseless. At long range you can spend your 2 evades to cancel damage, and redirects to flip shields around, as you come in closer and your evades start to lose effectiveness you can start to use then discard them. At close range you can redirect and spend any leftover evades, then discard them as you run out of shields. If you get the balance right, Admonition is one of the most durable ships bar none in the game.

Edited by BrobaFett

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18 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I think that new players will have better luck with Foresight as it's effects are very straight forward, but a more experienced player will end up getting more mileage out of Admonition.

There's not a huge skill curve. Use your tokens aggressively, ditch them when they are useless.

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6 hours ago, Captain Ordo N-11 said:

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I can see the use of Admonition and maybe not getting good use from Foresight. I'm not totally convinced one is better, maybe I'll try a dual MC30 fleet with one of each and see how they do comparatively. Very interesting either way. 

It is better.

WAY WAY WAY better.

Actually it's one of the truly good cards.

Foresight is just ok at best.

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Admonition complements the MC30 well. The ship almost always does a hit and run attack. It doesn't matter that you chewed through your defense tokens within 2 turns of combat, as once you get into their rear arc, going speed 4, you are generally out of danger.

Foresight would of course be better if you are trading damage for 4-5 turns, but this is just not how the MC30 flies.

Plus as others have stated, this ship is garbage outside of close range (except certain Ackbar or Sato builds). Foresight doesn't offer much at this range.

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Foresight might have the potential to be better in a longer game, that wasn't restricted to 6 turns.... or if the MC-30 didn't work best up close.   Foresight's best use is the ability to cancel TWO die right?   Well Admonition does the exact same thing, but also works up close!   Sure you lose the token... but by then how many more turns are there?   Game is only 6 rounds long so if it keeps you alive... spend ALL of them!   

Also... and this is huge.... admonition works against bombers.   BLACK dice bombers.  like Luke Skywalker.   Admonition can stop a TON of black crits at close range....   it's really nice, and I've actually cried a little this one time when Darth Vader boarding team removed my Admonition Title.  

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20 hours ago, Maturin said:

What @BrobaFett and @Church14 said.

 

The only MC30 build that might do better with Foresight is a Sato Scout 30 that wants to dance at long range, but that’s an extremely niche build, and even then Admonition is in the running.

I prefer Admonition for my Sato list, staying at long range for a turn or two is fine but they just don't do enough damage that way and eventually you need to close in. 

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20 hours ago, chr335 said:

It really depends on what you want your mc30s to do but if you are using mc30s at long range you might as well use cr90s cheaper and better suited for it.

I'm not an experienced Ackbar player. But in an Ackbar list, looking at the numbers, I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer an MC30 Foresight (69+8 points in the case of a Foresight MC30) over an Assault Frigate Mark IIB (72points + upgrades) as the front ship of a line for redundant tokens, a much better title in an Ackbar list, 2 less hull, better front arc (when people try to close down your line from the front) and 1 less engineering and die in the side.

The single red die of the CR90 makes it vulnerable to obstruction and 3 red dice as its total armament isn't substantial enough. You can put TRCs on both ships to the same effect after all. You may well argue with me that two TRC90s for a price not substantially above the MC30 Foresight is a better deal, but that's a different story I think - and the vulnerability to obstruction is very real for the CR90s still.

I will also note, that as a newer player, I overvalue my defense tokens in general. I've only recently learned to understand that ships generally don't get many chances to shoot at each other, which is why external racks, disposable capacitors and defense token discarding are respectively relatively better or less bad than I first thought. My heuristic at first in Armada was to never ever discard a defense token that wasn't redundant until turn 6, and to generally never discard defense tokens.

On 11/30/2018 at 7:22 AM, Green Knight said:

It is better.

WAY WAY WAY better.

Actually it's one of the truly good cards.

Foresight is just ok at best.

I respect your opinion Green Knight, since you're a player I know to be skilled and experienced.

But. Calling Foresight 'ok at best' to me appears really off. I think we all agree it is worse than Admonition (due to its defense token suite, the existence of officers like Walex Blissex, its speed and manoeuvrability profile and the current game states current rather limited number of shots most ships like the MC30 Frigate will end up taking if you fly them decently well), but if you take two MC30s - Foresight for its cost is a good cards by all accounts as far as I can see. And among titles it is better than average at the very least. I guess it depends partly on XI-7s and their presence in the meta. But do you not believe that Foresight is a good title - great with Mon Mothma - whilst Admonition is arguably on of the best titles in the game?

Edited by Cpt. Caine

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11 hours ago, teeseeuu said:

Under Mothma, I think a foresight build with Derlin is the talkiest small base in the game. 

Derlin being just damage reduction doesn't save you from crit effects like apt which are crippling to the low hull mc30. Admonition being a dice discard can save you from 3 damage if it discards a hit crit with apt.

Only instance foresite vs admo and foresight wins is against the one big shot at red range, like a cymoon or ackbar mc80. Every other situation admonition is tankier.

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On 11/30/2018 at 6:22 AM, Green Knight said:

It is better.

WAY WAY WAY better.

Actually it's one of the truly good cards.

Foresight is just ok at best.

Man, this SO much. I bleed defence tokens from Admo like it's going out of fashion and almost never lose the ship to enemy fire. I've flown it off the board way more than it's ever been destroyed by fire.

The only time I dislike it is when I see it across the board from me. In that respect it's like an ISD. You have to decide early whether of not you want to concentrate it down, or there's just no point in shooting at it.

Edit: forgot to clarify that with Admo you can both spend AND discard the same token against the same attack: spend a green evade to reroll a die at medium range and then use the same token to cancel a die. At long range that's two cancellations, if you need that against a big red barrage.

I cram Admo into every list I can. Crutch? Totally. Effective? It's SUPER effective!

Admo is the rebel Demo. Make no mistake.

Edited by ManInTheBox

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I played in a tourney recently where my opponent had two MC30s, a Admonition and foresight, both built 100% for defense. I literally could not kill either with a Vader Commander 2 ISD and a 1 VSD list, built 100% for offense. I had multiple attacks from multiple ships over the course of the game and neither died, although both were a hull or two away from dying and neither had many shields left.

I can't recall the exact upgrades but I do recall:

  • Mothma
  • Early Warning Systems
  • Lando/Derlin
  • Projection experts lending

He had first player, so lots of last in, first out and good flying (around obstacles), and repair commands. Uhg, was brutal to face.

 

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23 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

Derlin being just damage reduction doesn't save you from crit effects like apt which are crippling to the low hull mc30. Admonition being a dice discard can save you from 3 damage if it discards a hit crit with apt.

Only instance foresite vs admo and foresight wins is against the one big shot at red range, like a cymoon or ackbar mc80. Every other situation admonition is tankier.

Except when you fly Landmonition, then lando that shot and admo the evade you used to dodge one hit already... 

Admo is always better. 

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