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Multiple Phase Shift in a turn

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2 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Play: "For the remainder of the turn, each time you draw....."

Phase shift says

Play: You may play one non-Logos card this turn

"this turn" means right away? 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mushra93 said:

"this turn" means right away? 

 

 

You keep ignoring the rules 

Page 5

Action Cards

When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s “Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

 

So yeah according to the written rules.

Play Phase Shift, play non-Logos card, place Phase Shift into the discard pile

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19 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

This isn't mtg?

Why do you insist on linking mtg rules?

Strange concept? There are other ways to play card games then what mtg does.  

I honestly don’t care which rules FFG uses, as long as there are rules. I gave one example of how to fill an obvious void. And that example is Batman.

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4 hours ago, 10Ten said:

You keep ignoring the rules 

Page 5

Action Cards

When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s “Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

 

So yeah according to the written rules.

Play Phase Shift, play non-Logos card, place Phase Shift into the discard pile

The effect you resolved is "grant this ability for the remainder of this turn".

I have a better example proving lingering effects happen. Foggify: your opponent can't use creatures to fight on their next turn. Foggify (the card) doesn't stay in play during the rest of your turn and also the entirety of your opponents next turn. It creates a temporary rules change and is then discarded. Establishing the rules change IS the "do as much as you csn" part of the action card. Following those rules later doesn't need the card anymore.

Library access and phase shift are the same. "Here are dome new rules, and how long they last."

Edited by saluk64007

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If the basic rules state that you can only play cards from the house you chose during step 2, and cards like Phase Shift break that using the Golden Rule, does that also mean Phase Shift permits you to play that non-Logos card during steps 4 and 5? It doesn't say "you may play this during step 3," and the turn doesn't actually end until after step 5. That means you could, theoretically, draw into a non-Logos card when you go to re-fill your hand and play it then. 

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28 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If the basic rules state that you can only play cards from the house you chose during step 2, and cards like Phase Shift break that using the Golden Rule, does that also mean Phase Shift permits you to play that non-Logos card during steps 4 and 5? It doesn't say "you may play this during step 3," and the turn doesn't actually end until after step 5. That means you could, theoretically, draw into a non-Logos card when you go to re-fill your hand and play it then. 

The golden rule only allows card text to override the golden rule where they directly contradict the rules. Phase shift would have to be worded "you may play a non-logos card during any phase of the turn" to break the phase rule.

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39 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If the basic rules state that you can only play cards from the house you chose during step 2, and cards like Phase Shift break that using the Golden Rule, does that also mean Phase Shift permits you to play that non-Logos card during steps 4 and 5? It doesn't say "you may play this during step 3," and the turn doesn't actually end until after step 5. That means you could, theoretically, draw into a non-Logos card when you go to re-fill your hand and play it then. 

Technically the only phase you can play card is the 3rd one, so I don't think that's really a problem. I see what you questioned, but looking at the phases in the rulebook, the only one that permits you to play card is the 3rd.

But you can still argue that the card just say in this turn. It's so complicated to word effects and rules so tere is minimum to no doubts haha 

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Right, I was illustrating a point. The designer(s) need to flesh out the rules a bit better when it comes to constant effects and their limits within a given turn. Click the Batman for more information. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Right, I was illustrating a point. The designer(s) need to flesh out the rules a bit better when it comes to constant affects and their limits within a given turn. Click the Batman for more information. 

They'll need to do a better job with the rules if they realy want to build a competitive scenario for this game. For the most part the game is simple, but that doesn't mean the game should not have more sophisticated rules to cover some aspects of it

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3 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

The effect you resolved is "grant this ability for the remainder of this turn".

I have a better example proving lingering effects happen. Foggify: your opponent can't use creatures to fight on their next turn. Foggify (the card) doesn't stay in play during the rest of your turn and also the entirety of your opponents next turn. It creates a temporary rules change and is then discarded. Establishing the rules change IS the "do as much as you csn" part of the action card. Following those rules later doesn't need the card anymore.

Library access and phase shift are the same. "Here are dome new rules, and how long they last."

Foggify doesn't disprove my point about

ACTION CARDS
When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

core-117.jpg

People are tripping up on "this turn" as if it's some loophole for When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s“Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

 

Are you normally allowed to play cards outside of the chosen faction?

 

Right now we are in the race to find loopholes for the game  I guess some want to be able to name the loophole Spike or Batman or Snazzler

 

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:04 PM, RobertK said:

No, having three of these in your hand would not enable you to play three non-Logos cards. The card specifically says you can play one. If you were to play it again, you can still only play one. 

EACH card says you can play one.  Each card resolves seperatly.

It's like this;

Kid asks: "Mom, can I take a cookie?" Mom says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie. Then:

Kid asks: "Dad, can I take a cookie?" Dad says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie. Then:

Kid asks: "Grandma, can I take a cookie?" Grandma says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie.

In the end how many cookies did the kid take? THREE.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Foggify doesn't disprove my point about

ACTION CARDS
When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

core-117.jpg

People are tripping up on "this turn" as if it's some loophole for When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s“Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

 

Are you normally allowed to play cards outside of the chosen faction?

  

 Right now we are in the race to find loopholes for the game  I guess some want to be able to name the loophole Spike or Batman or Snazzler

  

"This turn" on phase shift makes all the difference. If they wanted you to immediately play a non-logos card after playing phase shift, it takes less words to write "Play one non-logos card". "This turn" isn't a mistake, and it wasn't added to attempt to make things more clear. It means something that they chose to write it.

My point in bringing up foggify, is that foggify creates an effect that is in place for a set amount of time, but is then immediately discarded. You do not leave foggify on the board until the end of the opponents turn - do you? That doesn't seem right to me. The rules never define a limbo area where these kind of cards sit.

You play phase shift. You resolve as much of the ability as is possible: by implementing the rules change that you can play a non-logos card. Then you discard phase shift.

Then, you can play any logos cards, and up to one non-logos card, in any order. I don't see why a second phase shift wouldn't allow a second non-logos card. Each one gives you permission for another one. If library access works the way it does (each one giving you a card draw) it seems like phase shift would work the same way.

I don't know about others trying to find loopholes - my goal is to understand the rules correctly and completely, and aid in the same happening for others. The game is better if we all understand and play it the same way.

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14 hours ago, 10Ten said:

I say sequence matters.

According to 'da rulez'

Except the game doesn't have this lingering effect

Page 5 of 'da rulez'

 

According to the rules

There is no "Lingering Effect" in the book

and According to the rules "You may play one non-logos card this turn" is a fully resolved effect

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9 hours ago, Talamare said:

According to the rules

There is no "Lingering Effect" in the book

and According to the rules "You may play one non-logos card this turn" is a fully resolved effect

Oh I see now

core-271.jpg

This card says Play: Archive a card.

So the Rule

ACTION CARDS
When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s “Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

kicks in I: 

  1. Play Hidden Stash,
  2. Immediately Archive a card,
  3. Place Hidden Stash in discard pile

From my gander through the cards I think only

core-177.jpg

has the wording somewhat similar

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16 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

EACH card says you can play one.  Each card resolves seperatly.

It's like this;

Kid asks: "Mom, can I take a cookie?" Mom says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie. Then:

Kid asks: "Dad, can I take a cookie?" Dad says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie. Then:

Kid asks: "Grandma, can I take a cookie?" Grandma says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie.

In the end how many cookies did the kid take? THREE.

 

 

Not if the kid is me. I would have cheated a few extra, especially on grandma's watch.

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21 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

EACH card says you can play one.  Each card resolves seperatly.

It's like this;

Kid asks: "Mom, can I take a cookie?" Mom says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie. Then:

Kid asks: "Dad, can I take a cookie?" Dad says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie. Then:

Kid asks: "Grandma, can I take a cookie?" Grandma says "Yes". Kid takes a cookie.

In the end how many cookies did the kid take? THREE.

 

 

Not analogous to the card and rules we are talking about with Phase Shift. A better analogy would be this answer from mom, “You may have one cookie today.” When dad and grandma repeat this allowance, it doesn’t change mom’s pronouncement, they are just reinforcing it.

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56 minutes ago, RobertK said:

Not analogous to the card and rules we are talking about with Phase Shift. A better analogy would be this answer from mom, “You may have one cookie today.” When dad and grandma repeat this allowance, it doesn’t change mom’s pronouncement, they are just reinforcing it.

How about combat pheromones?

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor keyforge omni

 

You have 1 brobnar creature, 3 mars creatures, 1 mars artifact  and two combat pheromones (all ready). How many cards can you use that turn (when you choose brobnar)?

1, 3 or all?

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, Robin Graves said:

Or how about Tentacus?

Tentacus

 

If your opponent has 3 Aember and 3 artifacts, if he wants to use them all, how much aember must he pay you?  3 (one for each artifact) or 1 to use artifacts this turn?

 

<JK> Well, Obviously your opponent HAS to pay you 1 {it is a MUST ability, not a MAY} and then can use "an" artifact this turn, so they can only use 1 artifact this turn.  ALSO if they have no artifacts to use they must still "Do as much as you can" and pay you 1. ;)</JK>

Having played Destiny and X-Wing in addition to lots of non FFG games, I really wish game companies had better rules editors and maybe an AI to play several games with pure Rules as Written to catch some of this sort of stuff. ALSO play testers should work way harder at breaking stuff before the rulebook is completed.

I think Multiple Phase Shifts, Mothers, etc should grant 1 per card, but I will play it however it gets ruled. And of course the answer to Tentacus, is that they pay 1 per use as long as they have artifacts they wish to use and ember to pay.

Edited by jimtullis
Bolding the JOKE Tag

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11 hours ago, jimtullis said:

<JK> Well, Obviously your opponent HAS to pay you 1 {it is a MUST ability, not a MAY} and then can use "an" artifact this turn, so they can only use 1 artifact this turn.  ALSO if they have no artifacts to use they must still "Do as much as you can" and pay you 1. ;)</JK>

Having played Destiny and X-Wing in addition to lots of non FFG games, I really wish game companies had better rules editors and maybe an AI to play several games with pure Rules as Written to catch some of this sort of stuff. ALSO play testers should work way harder at breaking stuff before the rulebook is completed.

I think Multiple Phase Shifts, Mothers, etc should grant 1 per card, but I will play it however it gets ruled. And of course the answer to Tentacus, is that they pay 1 per use as long as they have artifacts they wish to use and ember to pay.

I can talk a bit about playtesting.

I can say with absolute authority, it's not the play-testers fault.

My one big beef with Keyforge's "rulebook" it's 24 pages long and the actual rules+glossary is only 12 pages, the other twelve pages is fluff.

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22 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

I can talk a bit about playtesting.

I can say with absolute authority, it's not the play-testers fault.

My one big beef with Keyforge's "rulebook" it's 24 pages long and the actual rules+glossary is only 12 pages, the other twelve pages is fluff.

I wonder if having high level MtG deckbuilders, judges, or players take the cardpool and pour through the text on the cards with the rules as written. It seems like this would've eliminated a lot of edge cases and timing issues.

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42 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

I can say with absolute authority, it's not the play-testers fault.

That would certainly be true, if said playtesters already caught all of these issues, passed them back to development, and then FFG refused to fix the rulebook anyway.

So where do you think the blame lies?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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49 minutes ago, debiant said:

I wonder if having high level MtG deckbuilders, judges, or players take the cardpool and pour through the text on the cards with the rules as written. It seems like this would've eliminated a lot of edge cases and timing issues.

You think so?  Even with all the issues that continues to plague mtg?

34 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

That would certainly be true, if said playtesters already caught all of these issues, passed them back to development, and then FFG refused to fix the rulebook anyway.

So where do you think the blame lies?

Read page 23 of the Rulebook under Credits.

We have no ideas if the Play-Testers had access to all of the cards.  They can't catch something if they didn't have it in the first place.

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1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

You think so?  Even with all the issues that continues to plague mtg?

Without a doubt. Whatever its faults, Magic has far and away the strongest rule book of any game. For any given situation there's one correct answer, no need for interpretation. At the design level, FFG should have hired a team that does nothing but examine other games, so as to learn from them and avoid the same pitfalls. Alas, they simply have too many properties - all of which appear to be managed independently - to be able to give any one of them the focus they deserve. 

 

1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

We have no ideas if the Play-Testers had access to all of the cards.  They can't catch something if they didn't have it in the first place.

I agree, but I'm trying to reconcile this statement of uncertainty with "I can say with absolute authority, it's not the play-testers fault." They simply don't jibe. 

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