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kiramode

Multiple Phase Shift in a turn

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341_117_HP2M3PV8GPJ7_en.png

Basic question: if I have 3 of these in my hand can I play 3 non logos cards? 

Also, does sequencing matter? If I play two of them in a row could i then play back to back non logos; or would I have to go phase shift then non logos then play another phase shift?

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1 hour ago, kiramode said:

Basic question: if I have 3 of these in my hand can I play 3 non logos cards? 

Also, does sequencing matter? If I play two of them in a row could i then play back to back non logos; or would I have to go phase shift then non logos then play another phase shift?

There is a great deal of debate around this. Until we get an official ruling it is going to remain a hotly contested debate. My interpretation is yes, if you play more than 1 Phase shift you can play more than 1 non-Logos card. Many others will say no.

One stance is that because of the wording people assume the game remembers the card being played and "one non-Logos card" is being read as literally '1 and only 1'. However, the card does not say 1 and only 1. It says 1. And a second copy of Phase Shift also says 1. That is (in my mind) two separate instances of 1. Thus two or three as the case may be.

You will need to either discuss this with your opponent on a game-by-game basis or ask your Event Organizer for a ruling that will be used for that event. Once we get an official ruling the debate will no longer matter. Until then we wait for an official response...

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1 hour ago, kiramode said:

341_117_HP2M3PV8GPJ7_en.png

Basic question: if I have 3 of these in my hand can I play 3 non logos cards? 

Also, does sequencing matter? If I play two of them in a row could i then play back to back non logos; or would I have to go phase shift then non logos then play another phase shift?

No, having three of these in your hand would not enable you to play three non-Logos cards. The card specifically says you can play one. If you were to play it again, you can still only play one. 

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23 minutes ago, RobertK said:

No, having three of these in your hand would not enable you to play three non-Logos cards. The card specifically says you can play one. If you were to play it again, you can still only play one. 

Somewhere in the Wilds of the Facebook group someone posted a response from Brad Anders saying multiple copies allow for multiple plays.  His reasoning?  Because it's more fun that way...

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1 minute ago, dperello said:

Somewhere in the Wilds of the Facebook group someone posted a response from Brad Anders saying multiple copies allow for multiple plays.  His reasoning?  Because it's more fun that way...

I personally avoid FB like the plague on society that it is. If you could find this and link it here that would be particularly helpful!

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30 minutes ago, RobertK said:

No, having three of these in your hand would not enable you to play three non-Logos cards. The card specifically says you can play one. If you were to play it again, you can still only play one. 

I am curious what your reasoning is behind your assertion here. Care to share?

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My reasoning is that the effect tells you specifically how many cards you are allowed to play this turn that are not Logos cards: up to one (the "up to" is from the "may"). You can therefore play that card at any time after you play the "Phase Shift" card; the sequence is up to you. The wording of the effect doesn't even offer a hint that it would stack with other copies of the card. Each of them says the same thing, "You may play one non-Logos card this turn." One is still one.

If the effect was intended to stack, it would have been worded..."Play: Play a non-Logos card." That would mean every time you play "Phase Shift", you get to play another non-Logos card.

But it doesn't say that.

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15 minutes ago, RobertK said:

My reasoning is that the effect tells you specifically how many cards you are allowed to play this turn that are not Logos cards: up to one (the "up to" is from the "may"). You can therefore play that card at any time after you play the "Phase Shift" card; the sequence is up to you. The wording of the effect doesn't even offer a hint that it would stack with other copies of the card. Each of them says the same thing, "You may play one non-Logos card this turn." One is still one.

If the effect was intended to stack, it would have been worded..."Play: Play a non-Logos card." That would mean every time you play "Phase Shift", you get to play another non-Logos card.

But it doesn't say that.

Hmmm.  That will impact other cards in the game than, like:

core-145.jpg

 

Also going to change my stance 

Page 5 Rulebook

Quote

ACTION CARDS
When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

Yes I would say sequence would matter.

Play Phase Shift, then immediately 'have to' play Non Logos card.

Edited by 10Ten
clarification

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1 minute ago, 10Ten said:

Hmmm.  That will impact other cards in the game than, like:

core-145.jpg

 

Mind you I believe each card is a separate instance because play one is met when you play one then you play another and it’s a new effect you have yet to mee till you play another.

That said mother does say “additional” suggesting +1 so it is technically different.

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17 minutes ago, RobertK said:

But it doesn't say that.

It also doesn't say "up to." With your templating the other card could only be played immediately after the Phase Shift, but if multiple Phase Shifts actually do allow more than one other card to be played then you could do them in any order.

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3 hours ago, 10Ten said:

Hmmm.  That will impact other cards in the game than, like:

core-145.jpg

 

Also going to change my stance 

Page 5 Rulebook

Yes I would say sequence would matter.

Play Phase Shift, then immediately 'have to' play Non Logos card.

As @TwitchyBait said, "Mother" says an ADDITIONAL card. That's different since it doesn't tell you exactly how many cards to draw (or how many to draw up to). For each "Mother" in play, you gain 1 additional card in your draw. If you worded "Mother" like "Phase Shift", it would read something like: "During your 'draw cards' step, refill your hand to 7 cards" (i.e. it would tell you exactly how many cards to draw to). As for sequence, you are probably right. I think you should generally resolve each card's effect completely before moving on to another choice.

3 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

It also doesn't say "up to." With your templating the other card could only be played immediately after the Phase Shift, but if multiple Phase Shifts actually do allow more than one other card to be played then you could do them in any order.

You're right that it doesn't say "up to", but the use of "may" in the wording of the card means you could choose to play 1 non-Logos card this turn or you could not to play the allowed 1 non-Logos card. That's why I said "up to" in my reasoning. And you're absolutely right that my revised wording on the card to show contrast would mean the non-Logos card would have to be played right after "Phase Shift". But it DOES succeed in showing the contrast in meaning.

Cheers all!

Edited by RobertK

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7 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

It also doesn't say "up to." With your templating the other card could only be played immediately after the Phase Shift, but if multiple Phase Shifts actually do allow more than one other card to be played then you could do them in any order.

Quibble: It would be nonsensical to use “additional” on Phase Shift as it is on Mother because you don’t get to play non-Logos cards on a Logos card normally. You do draw cards normally.

Also, if it said up to that would actually prohibit any other non Logos cards getting played beyond the one, which would be a trap. The intent reads clear: Playing a phase shift lets you play a non-Logos card, but it doesn’t force you to, and it doesn’t limit your ability to use other cards/abilities to play non-Logos cards.

This last part is critical when you consider that it’s possible to play a Phase Shift without doing so on purpose (See: Wild Wormhole)

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Sequence doesn't matter

If you play Phase Shift, you can then play a dozen other cards THEN play the out of house card

It doesn't say "Play a out house card", which would need to be immediate

It says "You may play an out of house card this turn"

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This one I feel (unlike some of the others we had long multi page arguments over) could use a clarification. I can see both sides be it a singular card or multiple with multiple plays. The former because “a non logos card thus turn” could literally just mean a non logos card period but it could also just very easily be a way of letting you play one for each instance of the card without forcing you to do so immediately. Don’t have any real hard opinion on how this one should be resolved one way or the other.

The only way I see it playing out with multiple cards is: 

-Play Phase shift, the effect is in play 

-Complete the effect by playing a non logos card

-Play 2nd phase shift, the effect is in play again until resolved with another non-logos card

 

granted if someone played a second phase shift without playing a card in between it would seem one out of house card would satisfy both effects.

Granted even if this was the way it worked it hardly would be that insanely powerful as you’d not only need multiple copies of phase shift in your hand but you’d also need multiple copies of other house cards that you actually wanted to play as well and without archieving or getting some absurd hand size you’ll get at most what 2-3 non house cards if your lucky?

Dont know, anyone have the contact link to get an official ruling?

 

Edited by TwitchyBait

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You play Phase Shift and it gives you a "lingering" effect. Than you play another one and now get 2 of these that say "You may play one non-Logos card this turn". Does it mean you are getting the same effect in a redundant way or they do their effect separately? Apparently they answered with the latter.

That "one" will be tricky specially for players that don't have english as their 1st language. It would be clear if it was "you may play A non-Logos card this turn"? Or you could still argue that with 2x "you may play a" would be satisfied by the first card you play?

Or maybe it could be just "You may play one non-Logos card" meaning you must play the non-Logos card right away to complete the effect. 🤔

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8 hours ago, Talamare said:

Sequence doesn't matter

If you play Phase Shift, you can then play a dozen other cards THEN play the out of house card

It doesn't say "Play a out house card", which would need to be immediate

It says "You may play an out of house card this turn"

I say sequence matters.

According to 'da rulez'

7 hours ago, Mushra93 said:

You play Phase Shift and it gives you a "lingering" effect. Than you play another one and now get 2 of these that say "You may play one non-Logos card this turn". Does it mean you are getting the same effect in a redundant way or they do their effect separately? Apparently they answered with the latter.

That "one" will be tricky specially for players that don't have english as their 1st language. It would be clear if it was "you may play A non-Logos card this turn"? Or you could still argue that with 2x "you may play a" would be satisfied by the first card you play?

Or maybe it could be just "You may play one non-Logos card" meaning you must play the non-Logos card right away to complete the effect. 🤔

Except the game doesn't have this lingering effect

Page 5 of 'da rulez'

Quote

 

PLAYING CARDS
The active player is permitted to play any number of cards that belong to the active house during step three of their turn.

PLAY ABILITIES
Some cards have a bold “Play:” ability. Such abilities resolve after the card’s Æmber bonus is collected, if it has any, and immediately after the card enters play.

CARD TYPES
There are four types of cards in the game: action cards, artifacts, creatures, and upgrades. There are different rules describing how each card type is played.

ACTION CARDS
When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s “Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Except the game doesn't have this lingering effect

How about Library Acess? Does it stays off the discard pile for the whole turn? And I used "" between lingering. And even Phase Shift... You can play it, then play a bunch of Logos cards and do the non-Logos last, right? But the Phase Shift card would be already in the discard pile.

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2 minutes ago, Mushra93 said:

How about Library Acess? Does it stays off the discard pile for the whole turn? And I used "" between lingering. And even Phase Shift... You can play it, then play a bunch of Logos cards and do the non-Logos last, right? But the Phase Shift card would be already in the discard pile.

Lets look at what you are saying

core-118.jpg

According to you, When I play this card I can Play: deal 3 damage to a creature, play another card, play another card, deal 2 damage, play another card, deal 1 damage

Do you really think it works like that?

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1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

Lets look at what you are saying

core-118.jpg

According to you, When I play this card I can Play: deal 3 damage to a creature, play another card, play another card, deal 2 damage, play another card, deal 1 damage

Do you really think it works like that?

Really?

 Library Access

This is a "lingering" effect. You play and it goes to the discard pile. It gives you that effect for the rest of the turn.

Phase Shift

Same thing here. You don't need to play the non-Logos Right away. You play Phase Shift, it will give you this effect and then it goes to the discard pile. It's already resolved. Your exemple with Positron Bolt is not the same, come on.

Edited by Mushra93

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To be fair, KeyForge is very confused about whether or not effects can persist after the card they're linked to goes away. Some cards, but not the rules, seem to imply that there's an inherent game memory. This is why I tend to rail about how FFG manages triggered effects (poorly, if at all), because if an action card in your discard pile can affect the rest of your turn there's no reason why a creature or artifact shouldn't be able to as well. 

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Yes you do.

ACTION CARDS
When an action card is played, the active player resolves the card’s "Play:” ability and, after resolving as much of the ability as possible, places the card in their discard pile.

Library Access says

Play: "For the remainder of the turn, each time you draw....."

Phase shift says

Play: You may play one non-Logos card this turn

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