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Countering Sense

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1 hour ago, LordBritish said:

Because I can have very polarising thoughts about particular people and subjects that I would rather keep to myself, and I would feel angry if someone started exposing what I really felt about something, rather then what I portray as a mild and neutral persona.

View of those possessing Sense: So your anger is at my ability to penetrate your Deception. Perhaps the your anger should be directed back at yourself for a lack of Discipline in controlling your surface thoughts. (Note "your" is just general because I'm responding to a post using "I" and it's not a personal jab at your self-discipline.)

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2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

View of those possessing Sense: So your anger is at my ability to penetrate your Deception. Perhaps the your anger should be directed back at yourself for a lack of Discipline in controlling your surface thoughts. (Note "your" is just general because I'm responding to a post using "I" and it's not a personal jab at your self-discipline.)

Any Force users who would think of it this way would be dangerously close to the dark side.

"Too bad that you are not prepared to face my unnatural power, I'm now going to take advantage of it, no matter what you say, because I'm strong, and it is the strong who get to decide"

This kind of contemptuous ideas definitely looks like the Siths' ways of acting

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1 hour ago, AbsatSolo said:

Any Force users who would think of it this way would be dangerously close to the dark side.

"Too bad that you are not prepared to face my unnatural power, I'm now going to take advantage of it, no matter what you say, because I'm strong, and it is the strong who get to decide"

This kind of contemptuous ideas definitely looks like the Siths' ways of acting

Sensing someone's thoughts isn't unnatural, it's just using the Force. And the Force is entirely natural.

 

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3 hours ago, AbsatSolo said:

Any Force users who would think of it this way would be dangerously close to the dark side.

"Too bad that you are not prepared to face my unnatural power, I'm now going to take advantage of it, no matter what you say, because I'm strong, and it is the strong who get to decide"

This kind of contemptuous ideas definitely looks like the Siths' ways of acting

Having accurate information is never an evil thing. What you do with the information can be good or evil (or some of each). This applies to typical human senses, use of technologically granted/enhanced senses, use of Sense, use of Seek, and even use of Foreseeing.

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Sensing someone's thoughts isn't unnatural, it's just using the Force. And the Force is entirely natural.

 

Of course. When I said unnatural, I meant from the point of view of someone who doesn't know anything about the Force, and for whom reading minds IS therefore unnatural (except for some exotic species)

47 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Having accurate information is never an evil thing. What you do with the information can be good or evil (or some of each). This applies to typical human senses, use of technologically granted/enhanced senses, use of Sense, use of Seek, and even use of Foreseeing.

Wrong. The means used to get the information are also important. Invading someone privacy is always at least debatale when it comes to ethics, and even more when we are talking about our most private sanctuary, our mind.

That is not something a Force user should take lightly, and it certainly cannot be handwaved the way you did in your post

Anaway, that's just how I feel, I'm not here to start another thread about ethics and morality ^_^

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17 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

Wrong. The means used to get the information are also important. Invading someone privacy is always at least debatale when it comes to ethics, and even more when we are talking about our most private sanctuary, our mind.

That is not something a Force user should take lightly, and it certainly cannot be handwaved the way you did in your post

Anaway, that's just how I feel, I'm not here to start another thread about ethics and morality ^_^

If I can see your immediate future, should that too be protected by privacy concerns?

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34 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If I can see your immediate future, should that too be protected by privacy concerns?

That's hardly the same issue to me

In fact it depends what you call immediate future. If that is just seeing what will happen in the next few seconds, well you would have been able to see it anyway, with your "regular" senses. You are not invading anything

If you are reading his intents, that's a bit more tricky, but as it is mostly used it for self-defense, to detect aggression, you could say it's ok. In fact reading intents just gives you better reflexes, it doesn't really give you information that you could use

If you can see the next minutes or hours of someone's life, it is basically the same as having someone following him during this time and spying everything he does. And here we are back to the issues of the previous posts. That must only be done when necessary

Edited by AbsatSolo
correcting typo

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8 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

If you are reading his intents, that's a bit more tricky, but as it is mostly used it for self-defense, to detect aggression, you could say it's ok. In fact reading intents just gives you better reflexes, it doesn't really give you information that you could use

Oh, there are plenty of ways to use that sort of momentary prediction. Knowing how the dice in a game of chance will fall. Or using your predictive reflexes (preflexes!) and foresight to win a difficult race and secure the prize. If you know which way a person you're following will turn, you can cut them off even when you're in territory unknown to you.

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29 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Oh, there are plenty of ways to use that sort of momentary prediction. Knowing how the dice in a game of chance will fall. Or using your predictive reflexes (preflexes!) and foresight to win a difficult race and secure the prize. If you know which way a person you're following will turn, you can cut them off even when you're in territory unknown to you.

You seem to be better than me at finding exemples ^_^

But none of those requires to extract personal  information from another person's mind.

You are just anticipating what will happen, with the help of the Force, and acting in consequence

As for seeing where the dice will fall, that's another issue, really

Edited by AbsatSolo

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11 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

You seem to be better than me at finding exemples ^_^

But none of those requires to extract personal  information from another person's mind.

Don't they? I'm not sure it makes sense to differentiate between sensing someone's thoughts and knowing what action they will take next. On some level they are one and the same. Where is the future knowledge coming from? If you say "the Force", all you've done is add a stopover on the route. Where did the Force get this information, if not that person's mind?

What do you think competing racers would think about you knowing what they will do before they decide to do it? You're looking into their personal future as much as you're looking into yours.

(Just to be clear, those are mostly rhetorical questions. I don't intend to bombard you with questions I expect you to answer! It's just how I think. :D )

 

Edited by Stan Fresh

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19 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Don't they? I'm not sure it makes sense to differentiate between sensing someone's thoughts and knowing what action they will take next. On some level they are one and the same. Where is the future knowledge coming from? If you say "the Force", all you've done is add a stopover on the route. Where did the Force get this information, if not that person's mind?

 

You are right to say that it is close, you indeed take it from his mind. I'll try drawing a parallel :

When reading intents you are reading the person's neural impulses, the task monitor of his computer if you want, what actions he is going to run.

While when reading his toughts, you are digging in his personal files to find what you want

That is two different things to me, but I understand that you might think otherwise 

Edited by AbsatSolo

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11 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

You are right to say that it is close, you indeed take it from his mind. I'll try drawing a parallel :

When reading intents you are reading the person's neural impulses, the task monitor of his computer if you want, what actions he is going to run.

While when reading his toughts, you are digging in his personal files to find what you want

That is two different things to me, but I understand that you might think otherwise 

The power in the game only allows reading surface thoughts--open files--not your stored files. The person with Sense doesnt decide which files you open in front of them, you do. If you don't have a screen protector (Discipline) for your mental monitor, then that's on you.

What TFA shows is more of an invasive mind probe, and that's not what we're talking about here.

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7 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

You are right to say that it is close, you indeed take it from his mind. I'll try drawing a parallel :

When reading intents you are reading the person's neural impulses, the task monitor of his computer if you want, what actions he is going to run.

While when reading his toughts, you are digging in his personal files to find what you want

That is two different things to me, but I understand that you might think otherwise 

But thought comes after action. When a person moves a limb, they only form the thought to move it AFTER the movement has occurred! It's a wild concept, but that's how it's currently understood, as far as I can tell from reading the occasional bit of pop science. What is generally considered thought or intent is apparently more of an after-the-fact record of events, a story our minds tell themselves to make sense of decisions we have made on some other level.

So if you can predict what someone will do, you can predict what they will think. How's that for an invasion of privacy? :huh:

Not that I would put that type of consideration into a SW game. It's as out of place as thinking too hard about the physics and logistics of that universe. Mostly, I just have to fill a couple of hours until my early morning shift starts and I prefer not to go to bed at all tonight. :D

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56 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

But thought comes after action. When a person moves a limb, they only form the thought to move it AFTER the movement has occurred! It's a wild concept, but that's how it's currently understood, as far as I can tell from reading the occasional bit of pop science. What is generally considered thought or intent is apparently more of an after-the-fact record of events, a story our minds tell themselves to make sense of decisions we have made on some other level.

If what you say is true, then reading intents is interpreting the electric impulses in the nerves of the target and know what will be their next action even before they do. That's not reading thoughts or memories. Two different things. No problem. End of story

But what you describe is not really the intent as I conceive it.

Exemple : you try to grab someone's attention on the street. You don't think "i'll raise my arm and call his name". You just do it, and get feedback, just like you said. But before that, you DID think "let's have him look my way". And THAT is what you're reading when reading intents.

"Let's turn right and fly under this arch"

"Let's blow his f****** face"

These are conscious toughts you're reading, and that is why it is a tricky issue

Some of these decisions, when they must be taken quickly (race context) and/or when dicted by experience, can be unconcious, but they still exist, and are being read by the Force user

Edited by AbsatSolo

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

The power in the game only allows reading surface thoughts--open files--not your stored files.

True, thanks for correcting my exemple

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

The person with Sense doesnt decide which files you open in front of them, you do. If you don't have a screen protector (Discipline) for your mental monitor, then that's on you.

That is where we desagree. Would you really blame someone for not preparing against something they don't even know about ? Did YOU train your mind to resist such instrusions ? No. Why ? Because there is no such thing as a telepath. Well, the people in the Galaxy think exactly the same thing

Also the Force user can force you to "open some files", simply by talking to you, orienting your thoughts.

Edited by AbsatSolo

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12 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

True, thanks for correcting my exemple

That is where we desagree. Would you really blame someone for not preparing against something they don't even know about ? Did YOU train your mind to resist such instrusions ? No. Why ? Because there is no such thing as a telepath. Well, the people in the Galaxy think exactly the same thing

Also the Force user can force you to "open some files", simply by talking to you, orienting your thoughts.

In the Star Wars setting, people are aware of Jedi mind powers and have experienced them for 10,000 years plus. It is not our world and it would be a mistake to believe otherwise.

And they can't force you without using Influence. You still control your own mind through Discipline. Anyone can use Willpower alone, but many will train the skill to do it better.

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1 hour ago, AbsatSolo said:

If what you say is true, then reading intents is interpreting the electric impulses in the nerves of the target and know what will be their next action even before they do. That's not reading thoughts or memories. Two different things. No problem. End of story

That's a quibble with the means, not the end. A method to accurately reconstruct (or, more accurately, construct in parallel) your thoughts is effectively the same as more direct mind reading.

Quote

But what you describe is not really the intent as I conceive it.

But before that, you DID think "let's have him look my way".

I don't remember ever thinking something like that before raising my hand to wave at someone. When I see someone and want to draw their attention, I lift my arm or give a nod, but there is no sentence-like thought preceding this action. It's all subconscious and immediate and seemingly autonomous. Only if that person doesn't look my way and the action takes longer than usual does conscious thought enter into it (in the form of annoyance or humor).

Basically, I think your model of how thought and action relate is not accurate to my experience, and to what I've read of the topic (which I hasten to add is only popular science material).

Edited by Stan Fresh

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58 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

In the Star Wars setting, people are aware of Jedi mind powers and have experienced them for 10,000 years plus. It is not our world and it would be a mistake to believe otherwise.

Are they though ? Under the empire, the jedis -and their powers- are legends, just see how people react when they witness the use of telekinesis for exemple : "he must have a repulsor device, blah blah blah"

On almost every media i have ever seen, the lambda civilian is shocked when seeing the Force in action. That is not something they expect. Most people in the galaxie have never met and will never meet a jedi. And they certainly don't expect someone who is not dressed in some weird robe to be a force user.

Or course, you could say that this is just the author's choice and that we don't know for sure. You would be right

58 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

And they can't force you without using Influence. You still control your own mind through Discipline. Anyone can use Willpower alone, but many will train the skill to do it better.

Yes they can.

If you ask someone about the location his base, he is likely to think about his base. Even if you don't get the exact location, by asking the right questions, chances are that you get at least a mental image, and a global idea of where to search

Let's push it even further : if you start telling him that you can read his mine, he'll start thinking about what he must NOT think about (I'm sure you did it at least once on yourself) and you get what you want quite easily

Or course, a strong discipline and mental training allows to resist this kind of tricks (to some extent), but there is no reason for "nameless thug n°15" who barely knows about the jedis, to have this kind of difficult training. Only high-ranked people would, or agents formed to resist interrogation/torture.

Edited by AbsatSolo

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20 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I don't remember ever thinking something like that before raising my hand to wave at someone. When I see someone and want to draw their attention, I lift my arm or give a nod, but there is no sentence-like thought preceding this action.

I wasn't saying that you had a "sentence-like tought", as you say, but rather that you felt the urge to drag his attention and that your subconscious acted in consequence

Actually, I'm being really confused right now. You almost convinced me with the second part of your post, but with that :

30 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

A method to accurately reconstruct (or, more accurately, construct in parallel) your thoughts is effectively the same as more direct mind reading.

With that I can't agree, although I cannot figure out why exactly, and even less express it in proper english 😕

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47 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

Yes they can.

If you ask someone about the location his base, he is likely to think about his base. Even if you don't get the exact location, by asking the right questions, chances are that you get at least a mental image, and a global idea of where to search

Let's push it even further : if you start telling him that you can read his mine, he'll start thinking about what he must NOT think about (I'm sure you did it at least once on yourself) and you get what you want quite easily

Or course, a strong discipline and mental training allows to resist this kind of tricks (to some extent), but there is no reason for "nameless thug n°15" who barely knows about the jedis, to have this kind of difficult training. Only high-ranked people would, or agents formed to resist interrogation/torture.

In this game, there's no real difference between using Deception against a target's Discipline to trick them into telling you what you wish to learn and using Sense to read surface thoughts along with Deception against a target's Discipline to get  them to think about what you wish to learn so long as the target is a PC, Nemesis, or significant Rival. The difference is that Minions and unnamed Rivals don't generally get to resist Force powers, so against your "nameless thug n°15" the Sense-user just needs the Force pips to get the information. In neither case was the target "forced" to think about something, and if the Sense roll succeeds but the resisted test does not, the surface thoughts may still be read but they don't give anything away that the target's body language, speech, and actions wouldn't otherwise reveal.

Edited by HappyDaze

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HappyDaze, I agree with you except for one detail :

23 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

 against your "nameless thug n°15" the Sense-user just needs the Force pips to get the information. In neither case was the target "forced" to think about something

As a GM, and when the player is looking for a specific information, I would always ask him to orient the toughts of the target by talking to him, even for minions -after all, the minion has no reason to think about his secrets all the time.

I would make it an automatic success in the minion's case, with no opposed check, but the question must be asked, because otherwise the information wanted is just not in the surface toughts

Edited by AbsatSolo

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8 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

HappyDaze, I agree with you except for one detail :

As a GM, and when the player is looking for a specific information, I would always ask him to orient the toughts of the target by talking to him, even for minions -after all, the minion has no reason to think about his secrets all the time.

I would make it an automatic success in the minion's case, with no opposed check, but the question must be asked, because otherwise the information wanted is just not in the surface toughts

Often the specific information sought is just "what is he/she/it thinking about right now" and no effort to guide their thinking is needed.

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50 minutes ago, AbsatSolo said:

I wasn't saying that you had a "sentence-like tought", as you say, but rather that you felt the urge to drag his attention and that your subconscious acted in consequence

And while another person has to see your wave to know your intent, a Jedi can sense it. So where's the harm?

As for privacy: that I can hear your stomach rumbling even though you don't want me to know you're hungry doesn't mean I'm rude for having ears. I doubt every species in the galaxy has hearing. Should those that do take steps to suppress it?

Using the Force is natural. It may require training, but so do going to the toilet, chewing food, and walking.

 

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5 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Often the specific information sought is just "what is he/she/it thinking about right now" and no effort to guide their thinking is needed.

In this case, yes, the roll of the power alone is enough

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Once you start talking to the person to try to get them to think about the things you want to know, you've entered into the realm of social skill checks. It could be Deception, Charm, or Coercion - Negotiation is unlikely, since even if you're framing it as a haggling session, that's not what you're actually trying to achieve - but it isn't just the use of Sense anymore. The upside here is that the check difficulty probably won't be anywhere near as high as if you were trying to get that information by purely social means.

 

As for reading someone's thoughts and whether this is conflict worthy, I'd say that it isn't inherently so. Why you're doing it matters (intent), and so does what you do with that information. Scanning surface thoughts isn't necessarily conflict worthy, but whether you have the professionalism* to keep anything you learn appropriately confidential might be - and that's where the actual temptation (and potential conflict) comes in, since you *could* easily abuse that sort of knowledge.

 

* I don't know offhand if there are other sources of telepathy in the SW setting (there probably are, considering how expansive Legends got), but they'd be dealing with the same ethical issues even without morality/conflict at work. Really, it's one of those things that most sci fi settings with telepaths don't bother to think about too much except to make the bad guys obviously abuse it.

 

Edited by Garran

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