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j0nathanv

KeyForge - Is it Competitive?

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Interesting take. I think most of us want the game to be that way: skill intensive rather than pay to win.

One of the apealing aspects to me was the fact that you can have a very strong deck, but there seems to be enough balance that you might have a hard time against certain combinations (granted both players are playing with the same skill level).

 

Also, most people talk about the 4 horseman, but are they really that good?

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The horsemen are good, but not game breaking. Focusing on just using Sanctum only however to use them will lose you the game. You have to hold Death back just to use it effectively. Pestilence starts to ruin any non-horsemen creature board presence you might have already set up. Famine is predominantly uselss against Brobnar and any creatures with 6+ power. War forces you to fight with your creatures meaning you need to use their reap/action abilities before you play it which isn’t possible if their not in the active house.

The only was you’d get a ridiculous horsemen deck is if you get one Pestilence in all three of your houses which should get you 12 total.

Edited by Hyperjayman

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I am always intrigued by people who want all the advantages and somehow having all the advantages makes them a 'competitive player'.

 

Wouldn't a competitive player be the ones who don't require all the advantages? 

 

You know the type that can utilize an inferior deck and still win more often than not.

Edited by 10Ten

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10 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

You know the type that can utilize an inferior deck and still win more often than not.

It just happens that when a competitive environment is established, why would a pro player use a weak deck? Let's say there is 10 pro players at a top event, all of them at similar high skill level. If just one person bring a busted deck he'll get of the of the curve.

Or you could use an exemple of two people using busted decks against each other. One casual player and a pro player. The pro player will win at a much higher rate if they play multiple times.

That's why sealed events are nice.

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1 hour ago, Mushra93 said:

It just happens that when a competitive environment is established, why would a pro player use a weak deck? Let's say there is 10 pro players at a top event, all of them at similar high skill level. If just one person bring a busted deck he'll get of the of the curve.

Or you could use an exemple of two people using busted decks against each other. One casual player and a pro player. The pro player will win at a much higher rate if they play multiple times.

That's why sealed events are nice.

I guess?

For me, winning when I am supposed to cuz I gots the bestest stuff, doesn't feel like I really won anything.  I can make sloppy plays and still win cuz I gots the bestest cards

When you gots the bestest stuff and I still beat you,  well that is a win I can savor.

1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type

Spike generally lacks the pejorative nature of "WAAC" or "competitive" epithets. 

okay

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10 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

For me, winning when I am supposed to cuz I gots the bestest stuff, doesn't feel like I really won anything.  I can make sloppy plays and still win cuz I gots the bestest cards

But you got what I exemplified, right? When it turns to competitive, if you play "fair", other players of your skill level will be hardcore. This kindda makes everybody planing to compete  obliged to do the same.

I always bring MTG because that's the other card game I play. Here is an exemple: there are some guys in my local store that can perform well in constructed because they buy the cards to have tier 1 decks. Some of them play... uh... bad. And that gets very clear when they play sealed or draft. You get limited resources and need to build something with what you get. IMO it's more skill intensive and that's why they don't perform well on those.

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6 minutes ago, Mushra93 said:

But you got what I exemplified, right? When it turns to competitive, if you play "fair", other players of your skill level will be hardcore. This kindda makes everybody planing to compete  obliged to do the same.

I always bring MTG because that's the other card game I play. Here is an exemple: there are some guys in my local store that can perform well in constructed because they buy the cards to have tier 1 decks. Some of them play... uh... bad. And that gets very clear when they play sealed or draft. You get limited resources and need to build something with what you get. IMO it's more skill intensive and that's why they don't perform well on those.

I understood it before.

 

I hope FFG puts more oomph into the Sealed tournies than the Archon tournies.

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The biggest thing about Keyforge that I think people overlook is that you need to be adaptable. That is less present in a constructed environment. You don't have to learn to see if you can make do with what you have, you can just have a finely tuned optimized deck. In many cases the actual difficulty in a constructed game is the actual construction. Not many decks for CCGs are actually difficult to pilot. And even when they are its just a matter of learning how to use them. 

In limited formats (even Archon for Keyforge) you have to learn to use what you have. You can have the ultimate answer to the meta. There is no Boros aggro to build in Keyforge (or even MTG sealed, depending on the card sets in the limited format of course). The skill comes in not only knowing how to pilot your deck. But you need to know how to pilot it based on your current draw as well as the current game state. Every different deck you play can have dramatic impacts on what you need to do to win in that match up.

Edited by Krashwire

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11 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

In limited formats (even Archon for Keyforge) you have to learn to use what you have.

That's the point. Like in MTG limited events, all you can have is the knowledge about all cards in the set and know the concepts of the game. There is no getting familiarized with one deck. You'll need to be good at PLAYING game. Making the decisions in positions you've never seen before

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22 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

The biggest thing about Keyforge that I think people overlook is that you need to be adaptable. That is less present in a constructed environment.

Meta awareness is huge in the constructed environment. You don't build 60 card decks in Magic, you build 75 card decks.

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Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

Meta awareness is huge in the constructed environment. You don't build 60 card decks in Magic, you build 75 card decks.

Agreed, constructed is a 75 card affair in MTG. However you don't need to be even remotely capable of deck building to do so. Once upon a time that was true. Additionally the sideboard in MTG further pushes the idea of having the perfect answer to everything you know you will see in the meta. I suppose it is true you need to use your sideboard to adapt in a best of 3. But it is less of a skill than it is in a limited environment. Your adaptation with a side board is pretty well established before you even get to the event.

I feel that Keyforge requires a level of adaptability that constructed hasn't had since about '94. I recognize that this is pure opinion, but none-the-less, the skills needed for Keyforge  certainly lead it to be a very good competitive game.

And **** does it feel good to win in a sealed environment when you are playing against opponents with decks you have never seen. The last event I played at we all played into our opponents deck blind. No 2 minute review of the opponent's decklist. You had to adapt on the fly to what they were playing. It was a very refreshing experience and I look forward to more.

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14 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

I suppose it is true you need to use your sideboard to adapt in a best of 3. But it is less of a skill than it is in a limited environment. Your adaptation with a side board is pretty well established before you even get to the event.

+

1 hour ago, Mushra93 said:

there are some guys in my local store that can perform well in constructed because they buy the cards to have tier 1 decks. Some of them play... uh... bad.

I know a good chunk of people that played competitive constructed MTG events with little paper notes on their pockets about how to sideboard against each of the most popular decks. You know, pro players write articles and break down decks and sideboards.

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It seems to me this game is easy to learn(if you’ve played magic or another modern card game) but harder to master.  I say harder to master, because a lot of habits need to be unlearned.  With any card created being possible to show up, and the win condition being different, and sometimes not knowing your own deck, you have to learn trends instead of specific decks.  If you open a sealed deck for the first time, you need to know how to play it on the spot, and recognize what it can be weak to.  I think that will be the difference between those who win more often than those who don’t.  I’ve been learning when to be patient and think ahead, and when to play aggressive.  

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9 hours ago, Mushra93 said:

It just happens that when a competitive environment is established, why would a pro player use a weak deck? Let's say there is 10 pro players at a top event, all of them at similar high skill level. If just one person bring a busted deck he'll get of the of the curve.

Or you could use an exemple of two people using busted decks against each other. One casual player and a pro player. The pro player will win at a much higher rate if they play multiple times.

That's why sealed events are nice.

It’s unlikely with the way the houses are setup (and the abilities that trend in each one) that a deck will be universally weak, instead it’ll be good against some and not so good against others. Knowing the right matchup it can win is part of the game too. 

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33 minutes ago, Derrault said:

It’s unlikely with the way the houses are setup (and the abilities that trend in each one) that a deck will be universally weak, instead it’ll be good against some and not so good against others. Knowing the right matchup it can win is part of the game too. 

I think there will be some dudes if they don’t have good amber generators and completely lack a way to stall your opponents amber generation

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4 minutes ago, Moneyinvolved said:

I think there will be some dudes if they don’t have good amber generators and completely lack a way to stall your opponents amber generation

There’s always an angle to a deck, it’d be an interesting “What’s my Game” style exercise to look at decks and figure out what each has as a defined path to victory. 

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3 minutes ago, Derrault said:

There’s always an angle to a deck, it’d be an interesting “What’s my Game” style exercise to look at decks and figure out what each has as a defined path to victory. 

Yah, but some angles are more acute than others....

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6 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Have you identified a deck from your collection (or someone else’s) as the clear ‘weak sister’?

Not sure yet.  Initial impressions of one is weak, but I have a theory on how to make it work.  It would require patience and luck.  Both of which I don’t have much of in games

 

the deck is “Wilton of Tillycube”

Edited by Moneyinvolved

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8 minutes ago, Moneyinvolved said:

Not sure yet.  Initial impressions of one is weak, but I have a theory on how to make it work.  It would require patience and luck.  Both of which I don’t have much of in games

 

the deck is “Wilton of Tillycube”

That looks pretty good, with all the archive the Epic Quest should be a cinch. 

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22 minutes ago, Derrault said:

That looks pretty good, with all the archive the Epic Quest should be a cinch. 

Like I said, I want to try it again.  With the three sanctum artifacts I have to hold/archive to pull off epic quest.  Untamed in that deck is meh.  I still want to learn from that deck, but it will probably sit after that

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