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Deck Problem And How To Solve It - FFG Please Watch

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51 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

You can tell me stories all day of decks which seemed like they weren't very good turning out to be very good.  Or times where you beat horseman decks or took down other powerhouse decks.  And it will never change the fact that I don't want the person I am buying from to be able to open the deck in advance and checking it prior to selling it without me knowing that what I am buying is an opened deck, not a sealed one.  If you are ok with it, that's fine.  But please don't defend this shady practice with "Not every 'bad' deck is really bad and not every 'good' deck is necessarily that good."  

Also understand I am not talking about the reseller market.  If someone wants to spend hundreds (on thousands!) of dollars on a deck they think will be a consistant winner, so be it.  I don't care what happens on the secondary market.  And if someone wants to buy a case of decks and open every single one and auction them off for profit, more power to them.  But I object to the them resealing any of those decks after they are opened and selling them as new.  

If you don't trust your local retailer, buy from FFG then?

 

Sorry but you can tell if a deck has been resealed.

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1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

If you don't trust your local retailer, buy from FFG then?

 

Sorry but you can tell if a deck has been resealed.

At no point did I say that I didn't trust my local reseller.  

And, no, you can't tell they have been resealed.  Watch the video in the the OP posted.  the boxes are very easy to open, review, and the reseal with superglue such that it is almost impossible to tell they had been opened before.  These are not cello-wrapped MTG boosters which have a very different look when resealed with glue as opposed the the original heat sealing.  

amazing how people keep missing the point of my posts.  

Things I am saying:
1. It CAN happen.
2. It matters if it happens.
3. FFG can implement fairly minor changed to the production to make it more difficult to do and easier to detect.  

Things I am NOT saying:
1. You can immediately tell if it is a world champion deck.
2. That every reseller is doing this and should not be trusted.
3. That if you buy a resealed deck there is no chance you will win with it.

Edited by xbeaker
has too many 's's in the word 'as' and it was censored lol

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30 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

Yes you can tell if someone used 'superglue'.  

  • it smells
  • it crystallizes
  • will have two different tear layers on the bottom

 

Once superglue has cured there is no smell.  
Used on paper it doesn't crystallize.  I use superglue to make my tuck boxes because it creates such a thin seal.
There would only be 2 tear lines if the resealer puts the glue in a different area than the original glue, and doesn't do anything to neaten it up.

And this also assume the buyer is knowledgeable enough to even look for these things.  Most people I know open their boxes from the top, and don't even consider that there would be people doing this.  Where for the cost of modifying their dies a bit FFG could have a perfed bottom that would tear very easily when opened from that side preventing easy re-sealing.  

I don't get why why you are so steadfast that FFG not do anything to modify the boxes for protection.  

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18 hours ago, xbeaker said:

Once superglue has cured there is no smell.  
Used on paper it doesn't crystallize.  I use superglue to make my tuck boxes because it creates such a thin seal.
There would only be 2 tear lines if the resealer puts the glue in a different area than the original glue, and doesn't do anything to neaten it up.

And this also assume the buyer is knowledgeable enough to even look for these things.  Most people I know open their boxes from the top, and don't even consider that there would be people doing this.  Where for the cost of modifying their dies a bit FFG could have a perfed bottom that would tear very easily when opened from that side preventing easy re-sealing.  

I don't get why why you are so steadfast that FFG not do anything to modify the boxes for protection.  

There is always a smell with superglue

It does crystallize, even on paper, especially paper with finish the box has.

There is evidence, i.e. tear, on the bottom.

 

Changing dies to have a perforated bottom isn't going to stop someone from opening and resealing the box.

 

I don't get why you are so steadfast that there's a chance there might be someone somewhere who perhaps will do this.

If you are buying a product from Shady McShadypants cuz the deal is sooooo good, well that's on you for wanting something for nothing.

Buy from FFG directly or support your local game store.  If you think your local game store is doing this, inform FFG.  Worrying and getting all upset that this might perhaps kinda iffin be happening?  Well, that's on you.

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29 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

There is always a smell with superglue

It does crystallize, even on paper, especially paper with finish the box has.

There is evidence, i.e. tear, on the bottom.

 

Changing dies to have a perforated bottom isn't going to stop someone from opening and resealing the box.

 

I don't get why you are so steadfast that there's a chance there might be someone somewhere who perhaps will do this.

If you are buying a product from Shady McShadypants cuz the deal is sooooo good, well that's on you for wanting something for nothing.

Buy from FFG directly or support your local game store.  If you think your local game store is doing this, inform FFG.  Worrying and getting all upset that this might perhaps kinda iffin be happening?  Well, that's on you.

watch the OP's linked video.  There is NO crystallization.  I am sitting next to a dozen tuck boxes that are all held together with superglue.  I have put them right up to my nose, there is no smell at all.  Also having worked in printing for over 20 years, I can tell you that the glue the boxes are held together with is probably superglue.  So if there was a smell that was always there, it would be there anyway.  You can open the boxes without tearing them. Again, watch the vid.  The Glue doesn't go on the coated area, it goes on the exposed cardboard where the old glue was.

If you perf the bottom it would be almost impossible to open it without tearing the perf.  Many companies already do this as a security measure.  I'm not saying it is 100% fool proof, but it makes it a very difficult thing to do well.

And you don't think there is a chance someone will do this?  I guarantee there are already people doing this.  It is a small minority, but there is no doubt in my mind that it happens.  And it happens outside of some obvious shady back ally dealer who is strangely selling decks for $2 a pop.  When it happens, it is usually done at independent shops (aka your FLGS).  The decks are sold at full price, not markdown.  You know not all bad guys wear striped shirts and twirl their mustache as the talk right?  Sometimes they are normal people who just see the chance to make a few extra bucks and figure, "Meh, they would have bought the deck anyway, so what if I looked at it first?"

But I get it, you are a super human, you can detect a whiff of cured superglue like a bomb sniffing dog, and can see micro-fractures in cardboard.  You also do full background checks on every shop you frequent and know the very soul of every person you deal with.  Us mortals might like a little more security because we aren't all perfect beings like you who inspect their boxes under a microscope every time.  This is just a thread suggesting ways FFG could improve their process.  I am not bashing FFG, I not suggesting that there are creeps behind every counter.  I don't think I have been taken in buy any scams.  I don't think any of my game stores are doing this.  But I do think there is a way FFG could improve, at a fairly minor cost.  So why not do it?

And even knowing all of this.  Even if I had the power to see through cardboard and detect glue crystallization like you do... My wife doesn't.  Christmas is coming you know?  I know she is planning on picking up a few decks for our Nephew.  My Mother-in-law will also likely be buying a few for me and him.  They will shop on Amazon, and eBay most likely as the shops are sold out around me.  I am not going to grill them on where they buy stuff, and maybe they do go to Shadey McShadeypants that you love calling out so much.  Wouldn't it be better if there were protection for everyone, so we don't have to have a forensics team on call to detect if a box has been opened before?  Maybe they just add a few security features and call it a day?

Edited by xbeaker

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6 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

watch the OP's linked video.  There is NO crystallization.  I am sitting next to a dozen tuck boxes that are all held together with superglue.  I have put them right up to my nose, there is no smell at all.  Also having worked in printing for over 20 years, I can tell you that the glue the boxes are held together with is probably superglue.  So if there was a smell that was always there, it would be there anyway.  You can open the boxes without tearing them. Again, watch the vid.  The Glue doesn't go on the coated area, it goes on the exposed cardboard where the old glue was.

If you perf the bottom it would be almost impossible to open it without tearing the perf.  Many companies already do this as a security measure.  I'm not saying it is 100% fool proof, but it makes it a very difficult thing to do well.

And you don't think there is a chance someone will do this?  I guarantee there are already people doing this.  It is a small minority, but there is no doubt in my mind that it happens.  And it happens outside of some obvious shady back ally dealer who is strangely selling decks for $2 a pop.  When it happens, it is usually done at independent shops (aka your FLGS).  The decks are sold at full price, not markdown.  You know not all bad guys wear striped shirts and twirl their mustache as the talk right?  Sometimes they are normal people who just see the chance to make a few extra bucks and figure, "Meh, they would have bought the deck anyway, so what if I looked at it first?"

But I get it, you are a super human, you can detect a whiff of cured superglue like a bomb sniffing dog, and can see micro-fractures in cardboard.  You also do full background checks on every shop you frequent and know the very soul of every person you deal with.  Us mortals might like a little more security because we aren't all perfect beings like you who inspect their boxes under a microscope every time.  This is just a thread suggesting ways FFG could improve their process.  I am not bashing FFG, I not suggesting that there are creeps behind every counter.  I don't think I have been taken in buy any scams.  I don't think any of my game stores are doing this.  But I do think there is a way FFG could improve, at a fairly minor cost.  So why not do it?

So buy from FFG if you don’t trust them enough to buy from them. 

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3 minutes ago, Derrault said:

So buy from FFG if you don’t trust them enough to buy from them. 

Oh.. wow.  Great idea.  Man, never thought of that! Thanks, you solved the problem forever and for everyone.  Shame no one ever mentioned that before.  

Oh my god!  READ MY POST.  WTH is wrong with you people?!  I DO TRUST MY STORE.

Why is every response "So buy from FFG!" ?!?!  

I am not worried about myself.  I am worried about the people who aren't on these boards and my not know better.  

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9 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Oh.. wow.  Great idea.  Man, never thought of that! Thanks, you solved the problem forever and for everyone.  Shame no one ever mentioned that before.  

Oh my god!  READ MY POST.  WTH is wrong with you people?!  I DO TRUST MY STORE.

Why is every response "So buy from FFG!" ?!?!  

I am not worried about myself.  I am worried about the people who aren't on these boards and my not know better.  

Because it’s the obvious solution to this chicken little sky is falling silliness. 

Edit: The crux is that it is not FFGs responsibility to stop local sales fraud.

Edited by Derrault

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On 12/1/2018 at 3:13 PM, Radix2309 said:

If checklist isn't available, you can't see what the deck is before unwrapping it. That makes it harder to trade away unopened decks you don't want.

I don't understand this thinking - why would someone buying a deck on the open market care if the plastic has been removed?

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I'll also add for all the "Buy from FFG" zombies out there.. last time I checked, there are sealed deck tournaments.  People come from far and wide for these.  parents bring their kids to these.  And I'm pretty sure the store that hosts them are not going to let you buy from FFG for these.

I know, I know.  I'll save you the effort of the response (if you didn't immediately hit quote and start replying after my first sentence)  "If you don't trust the store don't go there to play"  But again, this isn't something I am concerned with personally.  It is the semi-casual players.  The families that come out to these things.  The store is probably not scamming, but wouldn't it be nice if there was just a little extra security in place.  As the old saying goes "Locks are there to keep honest people honest."  If someone is really intent on scamming, they will.  ****, with the right gear you could copy a good deck, print out hundreds of copies and sell them all over.  Look into counterfeit Magic cards if you don't think so.  But seeing that perf, maybe it takes some of the temptation away from an otherwise honest person to stray a bit.

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1 minute ago, xbeaker said:

I'll also add for all the "Buy from FFG" zombies out there.. last time I checked, there are sealed deck tournaments.  People come from far and wide for these.  parents bring their kids to these.  And I'm pretty sure the store that hosts them are not going to let you buy from FFG for these.

I know, I know.  I'll save you the effort of the response (if you didn't immediately hit quote and start replying after my first sentence)  "If you don't trust the store don't go there to play"  But again, this isn't something I am concerned with personally.  It is the semi-casual players.  The families that come out to these things.  The store is probably not scamming, but wouldn't it be nice if there was just a little extra security in place.  As the old saying goes "Locks are there to keep honest people honest."  If someone is really intent on scamming, they will.  ****, with the right gear you could copy a good deck, print out hundreds of copies and sell them all over.  Look into counterfeit Magic cards if you don't think so.  But seeing that perf, maybe it takes some of the temptation away from an otherwise honest person to stray a bit.

You’re being unduly paranoid is the actual problem. 

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3 minutes ago, papalorax said:

I don't understand this thinking - why would someone buying a deck on the open market care if the plastic has been removed?

It's not a concern of the plastic being removed.  What happens is Unscrupulous business owner Shadey McShadeypants as 10Ten get s in a few cases of decks.  He opens the decks and looks for what are traditionally high value decks.  be it popular house combos, ot powerful cards (the horseman are the most common example).  He then leaves these unsealed, and sells them at a mark-up.  Horseman decks can go for hundreds of dollars.  He then puts the common, less exciting decks back in the boxes, sells them back up with a bit of glue and sells them at full retail.  

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1 minute ago, xbeaker said:

It's not a concern of the plastic being removed.  What happens is Unscrupulous business owner Shadey McShadeypants as 10Ten get s in a few cases of decks.  He opens the decks and looks for what are traditionally high value decks.  be it popular house combos, ot powerful cards (the horseman are the most common example).  He then leaves these unsealed, and sells them at a mark-up.  Horseman decks can go for hundreds of dollars.  He then puts the common, less exciting decks back in the boxes, sells them back up with a bit of glue and sells them at full retail.  

I get this - people seem to think that if they turn the cardlist around the people opening selling decks on the open market would be negatively impacted. I don't understand that thinking.

Seems like a good defense against unscrupulous owners to me and since I think a healthy secondary market is a good thing...I want people to be rewarded for cracking boxes.

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4 minutes ago, Derrault said:

You’re being unduly paranoid is the actual problem. 

I'm not.  I'm not paranoid at all in fact.  I have zero concerns that I have or will buy an opened deck.  But everyone is saying "It can't possibly happen. No one ever does this. You are insane to thing this could be pulled off. It would be obviously detectable by everyone.."  I am just refuting that.  

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1 minute ago, papalorax said:

I get this - people seem to think that if they turn the cardlist around the people opening selling decks on the open market would be negatively impacted. I don't understand that thinking.

Seems like a good defense against unscrupulous owners to me and since I think a healthy secondary market is a good thing...I want people to be rewarded for cracking boxes.

Oh yeah.  I am all for selling open boxes.  After the holidays I may even buy a few if there is a specific house set I want to play.  It is worth a few extra bucks to me to know what I am getting in advance (I'd never pay the insane prices a horseman deck goes for though).  I love the anticipation of opening a new deck too.  But hey, I want to have a Dis Shadow Sanctum deck and I'd rather pay $15 for it than have a 1 in 35 chance at it. :)  

What I object to is the re-sealing of these opened decks and reselling as new.  To be clear, I don't think for 1 second that the stores I buy from are doing this.  As I said I would never pay $100+ for a horseman deck, but I want to know that there is a chance I'd get one in that $10 blind deck.  That is the excitement in opening after all.  knowing there could be an absolute treasure in that little red box.  

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2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Mi mi mi. 😢

I don't even know what this means.

But man, gotta say you are a really helpful contributor on these boards.  Kudos.  Between "mi mi" and "Spindown counters aren't dice!" you really help support the community in a meaningful way.  

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16 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I don't even know what this means.

But man, gotta say you are a really helpful contributor on these boards.  Kudos.  Between "mi mi" and "Spindown counters aren't dice!" you really help support the community in a meaningful way.  

Speaking of being helpful, I couldn't think of anyone better to help you de-escalate than your eponymous Muppet. I hope this image brings you as much joy as it has me. 

Image result for muppet beaker

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Edit: The crux is that it is not FFGs responsibility to stop local sales fraud.

Ok, so if that is your stance, I get it.  10Ten has been arguing that it can't happen, and that it would be easily detectable.  I have only been trying to dispute that.  FFG are not the police, nor are they accomplices to those who would scam.  They are a business, and it is unfortunate that people may use their product to in some small way take advantage of others.  But FFG certainly has no responsibility there.  

My view is an looking at it like a shady can mechanic.  I think people here are sometimes having a gut reaction of "how dare I besmirch the FLGS owner.  They are delicate unicorns who are incapable of doing wrong."  And I am pretty sure I could go to 100 random stores and never get a resealed deck or be otherwise cheated.  But if this were a different message board and someone mentioned "Hey, I saw a way that shady car mechanics can take advantage of unsuspecting people...." I don't think the immediate replies would be "Oh you are full of it, that never happens, and if someone tried it would be easily detectable. Jeeze, if you are so paranoid you should only get your car serviced directly from the factory it was made at!"  And if someone had an answer for that scam that was relatively inexpensive for car manufacturers to implement, I similarly don't think the response would be one of negativity.  Now, these are $10 packs of cards we are talking about, not thousands of dollars worth of steel.  I'm just saying that hey, there is the possibility of a scam.  I doubt many people will be effected by it.  It may be so few that it doesn't really matter.  Just you know.. it's out there.  Here is something FFG could do to combat it.  It won't 100% fix the problem, but it would reduce it.  I also agree they are under no obligation to do it.  People are people, there are always going to be those looking to take advantage of others.  I just think FFG could do something to make that a little more difficult.  

I do apologize if I came on too strong previously.  It wasn't my intention.  

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1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

I'm not.  I'm not paranoid at all in fact.  I have zero concerns that I have or will buy an opened deck.  But everyone is saying "It can't possibly happen. No one ever does this. You are insane to thing this could be pulled off. It would be obviously detectable by everyone.."  I am just refuting that.  

We are saying "Don't buy from questionable sources."

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1 minute ago, 10Ten said:

We are saying "Don't buy from questionable sources."

That is always good advice.  But it can be difficult to pull off in practice.  Yeah, buying from some random eBay seller, buyer beware.  But sometimes places you would never call questionable, are.  Take my mechanic example.  I use it because it is a bit of a stereotype.  But those shady shops exist, and they look very legit.  Scammers do their best to  look as legit and trustworthy as possible.  I'm not saying they are all out to get you.  Odds are the overwhelming vast majority of people will never have an issue.  Me, I've known my FLGS owner since high school. (I won't give you specifics.. suffice to say that is a LONG time haha)   I'm not trying to cause a panic, or say the sky is falling or that people need to check every pack they open.  This isn't even my thread.  I'm just saying it's out there, in very small quantities.  There is something that FFG could do to make their lives a little harder is all.  And if a few more people can get a fair deal, whether they knew it or not, I'm all for that.  

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1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

That is always good advice.  But it can be difficult to pull off in practice.  

How is one able to buy from amazon or ebay, but unable to buy directly from FFG?  Nope doesn't pass the smell test.

 

You are wanting FFG to recall all their product, spend the money to retool their box making machine, repackage product.  All on the off chance that some knucklehead might, might be trying to scam someone out of, what? a deck that has better card list in it?  On the secondary market no less, something that FFG has zero control over.  Wait, you also mention there is a chance of an off chance that this might kinda sorta happen at an unknown, unnamed local shop somewhere. :rolleyes:

 

 

Edited by 10Ten

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16 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

How is one able to buy from amazon or ebay, but unable to buy directly from FFG?  Nope doesn't pass the smell test.

 

You are wanting FFG to recall all their product, spend the money to retool their box making machine, repackage product.  All on the off chance that some knucklehead might, might be trying to scam someone out of, what? a deck that has better card list in it?  On the secondary market no less, something that FFG has zero control over.  Wait, you also mention there is a chance of an off chance that this might kinda sorta happen at an unknown, unnamed local shop somewhere. :rolleyes:

 

 

woah woah woah.. I never said I wanted a recall.  Please don't try to put words in my mouth.  I am only suggesting that yes, they modify their dies.  Nothing else would need to change.  I work in printing, this is a fairly inexpensive and easy process.  Pop the old die out, put the new die in.  I also never said that there are people who can't buy from FFG.  But most casual gamers don't, nor do people buying gifts for them.  Sorry it doesn't pass your smell test, I know how sensitive your nose is.  

And yeah, odds are low.  But does that make it OK?  Again, why is it so offensive to you to even point out that this could be an issue?  Also you keep touting buy from your FLGS.  people can't buy from their FLGS and FFG at the same time.

Edited by xbeaker

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