Kaito Shrine Keeper + Yari of Air

[UnitOmega 2,818]

That said, Soaring Slash specifically says if you fail to crit, the weapon ends up somewhere else on the ground because it missed/deflected. Only if your blow "lands" in a critical strike does it stick in the enemy.

[nameless ronin 706]

2 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

That said, Soaring Slash specifically says if you fail to crit, the weapon ends up somewhere else on the ground because it missed/deflected. Only if your blow "lands" in a critical strike does it stick in the enemy.

And first strike duels are won by the first crit. 

That said, I was being a bit of an *** there. Didn't mean to single out @AK_Aramis either - apologies for that. Regardless, Sacred Arrow would be a complete dud if you needed to crit to get to resolve your infused invocation on the target so obviously I'm not going with that for my table either. The fatigue thing just rubs me the wrong way.

Edited November 30, 2018 by nameless ronin

[Avatar111 553]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:35 PM, easl said:

I probably wouldn't.  Invoking a yari of air is a different action than attacking with it. If the shug can't summon and attack with it in the same action (...and they can't), neither can the arrow. Tempest of air, as a counter-example, is an invocation that is also an attack action. The casting and the attack are one thing; so the arrow can 'attack' with it.

However, if the player bought Yari of Air mistakenly thinking it would give their character a whole extra attack or a bunch of extra dice on their arrow attack, I'd probably let them reassign those experience points. People make reading and rules interpretation mistakes; it's okay, it happens. Let them reassign experienec a small bit if something they thought was a really cool combo turns out not to be combinable.

Im with this.

And the Kaito school can still cast yari of air without having to shoot arrows, can they?

Its not like Kaito school are stuck only with range weapons. They can do whatever other bushis can do. Like.. melee.

And there will be some fights in which the bow won't be the best option. Especially if your enemies are smart and close in range 0 to your bow wielder, forcing them to use water stance just to attack you (because range 2 is minimum). Also, in close quarter/restrained fights etc.

I think kaito school is quite strong actually because they have access to kata and shuji AND some invocation (at the cost of 1 starting skill point).

Dont have the book with me now, but IF kaito cannot cast their invocations aside thru the use of their sacred arrows... Indeed it becomes weird to have yari of air.

 

[shosuko 2,174]

There was a good discussion about crits and what constitutes a hit that was useful.  I think my resolution will be "If it crits then the Yari is summoned inside the target" since that is where it would be...  I will probably require 1 OP on the roll for the invocation which would typically be used to allow an immediate Strike action on the other elemental weapons.  If they don't crit then the Yari simply pops out nearby, within range of the target if anyone wants to grab it, but otherwise its wasted.  Basically this creates a little combo where a Kaito shrine maiden can risk an extra action to get a double crit if they hit, or still miss.

Granted - there are no rules dictating that a player would get 2 crits, but neither the Yari or the Yumi are so powerful that I would be concerned with this amount of strength banked off of 2 actions...

Is there anything I'm missing about 2 crits @ DLS 3 being amazingly powerful that I would want to prevent a player from taking this over the obvious Tempest of Air arrow which smites for Air Ring + resist Disoriented at TN 4 instead of the 2nd crit?

[easl 58]

22 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

• Attack Roll succeeds. 
  • If target unable to defend, takes arrow deadliness as a critical of that severity
    • then takes yari's deadliness as a critical of that severity
  • if target able to defend against the arrow
    • target takes arrow's damage + bonus successes less target's Physical Resistance as fatigue
      • if target incapacitated by arrow, takes yari's deadliness as a critical of that severity
      • if target not incapacitated by arrow, takes yari's damage less target's Physical Resistance as fatigue.

Spelled it out in excessive detail for you. 

To each his own, but I would definitely not allow Kaito's to 'double crit' or 'double damage' by shooting an arrow into someone and then having the arrow manifest a yari inside of them.  This seems to be giving an extra combat ability to a school that doesn't need it and has plenty of options that do a very similar thing without having to, um, 'acrobatically interpret' the rules.  I mean, you start with big wind arrows and you're going to get fireball arrows and a bunch of other nasty arrow-invocation combos...do you really need to stretch the rules to give them that one more?

What's the compelling need here that is a reason to reintepret a support action invocation to allow it to be used as an attack?

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by easl

[nameless ronin 706]

1 hour ago, easl said:

To each his own, but I would definitely not allow Kaito's to 'double crit' or 'double damage' by shooting an arrow into someone and then having the arrow manifest a yari inside of them.  This seems to be giving an extra combat ability to a school that doesn't need it and has plenty of options that do a very similar thing without having to, um, 'acrobatically interpret' the rules.  I mean, you start with big wind arrows and you're going to get fireball arrows and a bunch of other nasty arrow-invocation combos...do you really need to stretch the rules to give them that one more?

What's the compelling need here that is a reason to reintepret a support action invocation to allow it to be used as an attack?

Funny thing about Tempest of Air'ed Sacred Arrows: they only affect targets 2 to 3 range bands away from whoever you shot, assuming the arrow counts as having struck the target.

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

On 30 november 2018 at 4:32 AM, easl said:

 

Honestly as the *only* school that gets regular access to both kata and invocations, I don't really think this particular school needs *more* power. It's easy enough for a Kaito to take Martial Arts (Melee) if they want to use Yari of Air, or take other invocations if they want a powerful effect at the arrow landing point.  Not every cool idea has to necessarily be accessible at rank 1, folks.

dont Kuni purifiers get both, too?

[Franwax 386]

15 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

dont Kuni purifiers get both, too?

That’s right! And no Shuji, which is fitting: all blast and no talk, these guys

[shosuko 2,174]

6 hours ago, easl said:

To each his own, but I would definitely not allow Kaito's to 'double crit' or 'double damage' by shooting an arrow into someone and then having the arrow manifest a yari inside of them.  This seems to be giving an extra combat ability to a school that doesn't need it and has plenty of options that do a very similar thing without having to, um, 'acrobatically interpret' the rules.  I mean, you start with big wind arrows and you're going to get fireball arrows and a bunch of other nasty arrow-invocation combos...do you really need to stretch the rules to give them that one more?

What's the compelling need here that is a reason to reintepret a support action invocation to allow it to be used as an attack?

 

 

 

Is there anything broken about this?  Or are you just knee-jerk reacting "they have so much why bother with this?" because the answer to that is simple - my player wants to, and if there are so many arrow + invocation combos, why stop this one unless it somehow overpowers them?  Is there something crazy powerful about potentially double critting that I'm not seeing?  I think tying it to crit makes sense - that is good feedback - if they are able to defend against the damage it isn't really "hitting" them so the combo could flop, but if they landed a crit that kinda means the arrow is inside them, and that is where it casts Yari of Air... so to me it seems worth doing if the player wants to do it.

4 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Funny thing about Tempest of Air'ed Sacred Arrows: they only affect targets 2 to 3 range bands away from whoever you shot, assuming the arrow counts as having struck the target.

It states that you resolve the effect where the arrow hit.  The effect of the invocation is simply to smite the target with supernatural damage and a resist for disorient.  Tying Tempest of Air to the arrow gives you an effective range of 2-5 instead of 2-3 for combining the two actions together.

Edited December 1, 2018 by shosuko

[easl 58]

16 hours ago, shosuko said:

Is there anything broken about this?  Or are you just knee-jerk reacting "they have so much why bother with this?" because the answer to that is simple - my player wants to, and if there are so many arrow + invocation combos, why stop this one unless it somehow overpowers them?  Is there something crazy powerful about potentially double critting that I'm not seeing? 

If you're asking "do you have a problem with my house rule," my answer is no, not really. If it works for your table, great! 

But your initial question, the one that started the thread was "Will this summon a yari within the target they hit?" You seemed to be asking a question about the rules as written.  And my answer to that question is: no, summoning a yari of air at the point of contact will not function as a second attack according to the rules as I'd interpret them.  It's a support action. Attaching the invocation to an arrow allows the kaito to perform the same support action at the arrow's impact point that they'd do in their own hands, nothing more. And just as a shug can't attack in the same round they invoke a weapon* by describing the action "I put my hand near him and the blade extends out from my hand into his belly," neither can the kaito do something like that. 

(*On that...being able to draw and strike in the same action seems to be a pretty big mechanical advantage in this edition. I'd hesitate to add it to techniques that don't actually have it.)

Quote

Is there something crazy powerful about potentially double critting that I'm not seeing?

Without playing through the rule, I don't know. I guess you'll find out.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by easl

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

4 hours ago, easl said:

If you're asking "do you have a problem with my house rule," my answer is no, not really. If it works for your table, great! 

But your initial question, the one that started the thread was "Will this summon a yari within the target they hit?" You seemed to be asking a question about the rules as written.  And my answer to that question is: no, summoning a yari of air at the point of contact will not function as a second attack according to the rules as I'd interpret them.  It's a support action. Attaching the invocation to an arrow allows the kaito to perform the same support action at the arrow's impact point that they'd do in their own hands, nothing more. And just as a shug can't attack in the same round they invoke a weapon* by describing the action "I put my hand near him and the blade extends out from my hand into his belly," neither can the kaito do something like that. 

(*On that...being able to draw and strike in the same action seems to be a pretty big mechanical advantage in this edition. I'd hesitate to add it to techniques that don't actually have it.)

Without playing through the rule, I don't know. I guess you'll find out.

 

 

 

this. If yari of air had "*: perform an attack with the created weapon" - I think Katana of fire has this? - that'd be different.

[nameless ronin 706]

On 12/1/2018 at 11:01 AM, shosuko said:

It states that you resolve the effect where the arrow hit.  The effect of the invocation is simply to smite the target with supernatural damage and a resist for disorient.  Tying Tempest of Air to the arrow gives you an effective range of 2-5 instead of 2-3 for combining the two actions together.

On reflection, that's probably right (due to the easier use of the invocation while infusing the arrow). I have to say though, that also gives me another reason to disagree with those who feel this school is borderline overpowered, since it reduces the number of targets for such invocations to one. Not a huge deal, but it doesn't help either.

[Ikiry0 26]

Really, the scary thing with Kaito is when they eventually get Fire stuff and can do stuff like putting Breath of the Fire Dragon in an arrow for double-hits (But then, you spent 2 turns for 1 Invocation + 1 attack worth of damage so it's likely okay).

[shosuko 2,174]

I've come back around and am not going to allow this to happen - until they can attach a weapon summon invocation which includes an opportunity spend, at which point I'll give it a green light.

Thanks for the discussion ppl!

[Llenlleawch 0]

This may have been asked before, apologies if so. But what stops you from blessing as many arriws as you want? Do they count as the 1 prepared spell you can have?

[nameless ronin 706]

7 minutes ago, Llenlleawch said:

This may have been asked before, apologies if so. But what stops you from blessing as many arriws as you want? Do they count as the 1 prepared spell you can have?

The blessing goes away at the end of the scene. You can bless away as much as you want, but any leftover sacred arrows return to normal when the scene ends.