Kaito Shrine Keeper + Yari of Air

[shosuko 2,174]

Kaito Shrine Keeper takes Yari of Air as their rank 1 air invocation.  They use their Sacred Arrows school ability to bind it to an arrow.  Now they shoot someone with it releasing this spell...

What do?

Will this summon a yari within the target they hit?  Or is there something else which would guide the resolution?

[UnitOmega 2,818]

So Sacred Arrows says to resolve the Invocation from the place the arrow landed. The effect of Yari of Air is to make a spear, which disappears when it leaves your hand, thus you spend the effect doing nothing (other than making your Arrow Sacred). That's how I'd handle it 99% of the time. I mean, if you actually hit a target with the arrow (so you inflicted a crit) and then want to make the summoned weapon like, burst into them for a second crit while they're already incapacitated or whatever, you might be able to BS that, but it just seems pointless and not well supported by the mechanical interaction. Much like using Yari of Air inside your Sacred Arrow. Just spend 1 Opp and make a Yumi of Air. 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by UnitOmega

[easl 58]

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

Kaito Shrine Keeper takes Yari of Air as their rank 1 air invocation. 

Nope, they get Tempest of Air.

Which  makes a lot more sense; attach that to an arrow and knock people down around the place where the arrow lands.

[broselovestar 25]

@easl they do have special access to a rank one Air invocation as part of their curiculum. This will allow them to take Yari of Air right?

[easl 58]

16 minutes ago, broselovestar said:

@easl they do have special access to a rank one Air invocation as part of their curiculum. This will allow them to take Yari of Air right?

Sure they can take it. But "curriculum teaches it" does not necessarily imply "will work well with their school technique." I expect there are several Invocations in their curriculum that will not necessarily make sense to attach to a sacred arrow. 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by easl

[broselovestar 25]

6 minutes ago, easl said:

But "curriculum teaches it" does not necessarily imply "will work well with their school technique."

Fair enough. 

I just mean the question and answer are still relevant for people who wonder how to combine these two techniques.

[nameless ronin 706]

1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

The effect of Yari of Air is to make a spear, which disappears when it leaves your hand, thus you spend the effect doing nothing (other than making your Arrow Sacred).

Not quite. It disappears at the end of the turn in which it leaves your grip. Arguably it should take effect for one turn, even if you don't allow the arrow to outright substitute for the shrine keeper's hand.

Personally I'd let the PC get the dice pool benefit on an attack with that Sacred Arrow. The additional ways to spend opportunities would not apply. That's mostly based on wanting this to work somehow for the player though, more than on trying to make the mechanics fit.

[easl 58]

11 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Personally I'd let the PC get the dice pool benefit on an attack with that Sacred Arrow. The additional ways to spend opportunities would not apply. That's mostly based on wanting this to work somehow for the player though, more than on trying to make the mechanics fit.

I probably wouldn't.  Invoking a yari of air is a different action than attacking with it. If the shug can't summon and attack with it in the same action (...and they can't), neither can the arrow. Tempest of air, as a counter-example, is an invocation that is also an attack action. The casting and the attack are one thing; so the arrow can 'attack' with it.

However, if the player bought Yari of Air mistakenly thinking it would give their character a whole extra attack or a bunch of extra dice on their arrow attack, I'd probably let them reassign those experience points. People make reading and rules interpretation mistakes; it's okay, it happens. Let them reassign experienec a small bit if something they thought was a really cool combo turns out not to be combinable.

Edited November 29, 2018 by easl

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Alright, so theoretically, you could shoot it next to your buddy and turn it into a spear he can use for 1 turn. This is +1 use. That said yeah, it's not very efficient to make it work with the school technique, and as noted none of the invocation's ❄ spends really work. I don't like adding the dice effect, because that's when you attack with the invocation - the Sacred Arrows timing is after making an attack action so you can't trigger it until after you shot, and like I said, if you can spend 1 ❄ on it you can just make a "Yumi of Air" instead and use it more than once. Much better use if a Kaito just can't not take Yari of Air. I'd think Blessed Air or Wind Scatters Shadow Arrows are more on point.

Edited November 29, 2018 by UnitOmega

[broselovestar 25]

8 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

you could shoot it next to your buddy and turn it into a spear he can use for 1 turn. This is +1 use

Can you explain which rule allows for this use? I've wanted to do the same thing before but I rmb finding no supporting mechanics

[UnitOmega 2,818]

So, it doesn't disappear until the end of the turn it is outside your grasp. You can, at GM's choice, shoot an arrow at a location (rather than an attack action). Put the arrow next to your buddy, have it generate a spear (or if you spend the opp any other weapon or pair of weapons you desired at the time). Unless your GM is very lenient with the phrasing of ready (since it says "you") they may have to be in Water to have it work, but you could also delay the arrow triggering for a round or two to let them grab the arrow, at least. It's still incredibly complicated just to give them a spear with Concealable and some free opportunity for a single round, but there's no logical reason it shouldn't work. 

EDIT: Also note the weapon is nearly invisible, so you also probably need to make sure your ally is aware of this plan first, because otherwise they may have a hard time finding the spear the kami have loaned them.

Edited November 29, 2018 by UnitOmega

[broselovestar 25]

Well that makes sense. The Sacred Arrow does seem to allow for this delay magic weapon activation. It's a cool combo if more can be done with it. But I can foresee perhaps some smart use of the mechanics by the players. Thanks!

Edited November 29, 2018 by broselovestar

[nameless ronin 706]

Perhaps if you can't use Yari of Air effectively in conjunction with Sacred Arrow, we can ask ourselves if Yari of Air should also allow the creation of arrows instead of only weapons. Getting to create a melee weapon out of thin air is certainly useful, regardless of any other benefits of the invocation, but getting to create a bow out of thin air without arrows to shoot with it is a lot less so. 

[easl 58]

23 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Perhaps if you can't use Yari of Air effectively in conjunction with Sacred Arrow, we can ask ourselves if Yari of Air should also allow the creation of arrows instead of only weapons.

That's "Bo of Water," which this school gets at Rank 3.  1 Opportunity allows you to refashion it into any ranged or melee weapon of your choosing.

Honestly as the *only* school that gets regular access to both kata and invocations, I don't really think this particular school needs *more* power. It's easy enough for a Kaito to take Martial Arts (Melee) if they want to use Yari of Air, or take other invocations if they want a powerful effect at the arrow landing point.  Not every cool idea has to necessarily be accessible at rank 1, folks.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Yari of Air also can be any melee or ranged weapon for 1 ❄

[nameless ronin 706]

4 minutes ago, easl said:

That's "Bo of Water," which this school gets at Rank 3.  1 Opportunity allows you to refashion it into any ranged or melee weapon of your choosing.

Honestly as the *only* school that gets regular access to both kata and invocations, I don't really think this particular school needs *more* power. It's easy enough for a Kaito to take Martial Arts (Melee) if they want to use Yari of Air, or take other invocations if they want a powerful effect at the arrow landing point.  Not every cool idea has to necessarily be accessible at rank 1, folks.

As @UnitOmega said, Yari of Air and Bo of Water are exactly the same in this regard. I'd also suggest the Kaito school is not exactly powerful, but that's a different debate. This would apply to anyone with access to these Invocations anyway - if a shugenja uses either of them to create a bow, should they need to have a quiver with them in order to use that bow? By the rules as written, absolutely, but I don't think there's a good reason it has to be that way.

[easl 58]

41 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

As @UnitOmega said, Yari of Air and Bo of Water are exactly the same in this regard. I'd also suggest the Kaito school is not exactly powerful, but that's a different debate. This would apply to anyone with access to these Invocations anyway - if a shugenja uses either of them to create a bow, should they need to have a quiver with them in order to use that bow? By the rules as written, absolutely, but I don't think there's a good reason it has to be that way.

Has lack of arrows been a problem in your games?

[nameless ronin 706]

1 minute ago, easl said:

Has lack of arrows been a problem in your games?

For archers, no - quivers of infinite ammo tend to do that. This is a bit more specific though. Mechanical benefits of the invocations aside, a major benefit is having access to a weapon in situations where you would otherwise not be allowed to have one. Should this apply equally if your weapon of choice is a ranged weapon rather than a melee weapon? And even in general, should shugenja who want to be able to use a yumi of air or water be carrying around quivers?

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

I would resolve it as the arrow hits, then the yari appears, and end of round, disappears.  But it allows a 1 turn guard... for 1 opp. Also, It can create ranged weapons for 1 opp. Sooo... 

Take my staff
Take my bow
Take me where I should not go
Don't you see?
I'm still armed!
And you will so soon be harmed!

(Apologies to Joss Whedon.)

Edited November 30, 2018 by AK_Aramis

[nameless ronin 706]

24 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

I would resolve it as the arrow hits, ...

Do you consider a successful attack a "hit"? Because strictly speaking you need to crit to meaningfully connect.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Do you consider a successful attack a "hit"? Because strictly speaking you need to crit to meaningfully connect.

"Hits," as in costs you fatigue to not take a crit. "Will hit if you fail to defend"

[nameless ronin 706]

2 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

"Hits," as in costs you fatigue to not take a crit. "Will hit if you fail to defend"

So, will not hit if you do not fail to defend?

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

5 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

So, will not hit if you do not fail to defend?

Defending still costs you the fatigue.

You're fixating on terminology issues in a manner that screams "rules-lawyering *******" 

A successful strike action requires defending or you get hit. Defending is free and automatic unless incapacitated or unconscious. Failing to defend means taking a critical; defneding means taking fatigue equal to the weapon's damage rating (usually increased by bonus successes). 

• Attack Roll succeeds. 
  • If target unable to defend, takes arrow deadliness as a critical of that severity
    • then takes yari's deadliness as a critical of that severity
  • if target able to defend against the arrow
    • target takes arrow's damage + bonus successes less target's Physical Resistance as fatigue
      • if target incapacitated by arrow, takes yari's deadliness as a critical of that severity
      • if target not incapacitated by arrow, takes yari's damage less target's Physical Resistance as fatigue.

Spelled it out in excessive detail for you. 

[nameless ronin 706]

Just now, AK_Aramis said:

Defending still costs you the fatigue.

You're fixating on terminology issues in a manner that screams "rules-lawyering *******" 

I'm just trying to picture what happens. The arrow "hits" and the yari appears - where is that? On the body of the target? Somewhere behind the target? According to your excessive detail it's the former, but the not-so-practical fatigue approach might indicate differently. 

Basically, I don't really care about the spear part. The fatigue rather than damage mechanic is just not my favourite.

 

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

Consider this, if you defend, your armor matters, So, a successful attack is being parried or blocked or dodged. So, if the arrow touches your sleeve... a yari  one can barely see suddenly follows it.