Scum yes or no.

[Rebel dude 39]

fringe

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

On 11/30/2018 at 2:46 PM, Xiervak said:

I come from Star Wars Miniatures scene (I think another poster calls that came D20?) and in those days, they were called Fringe. I think "Fringe" is appropriate. #MakeFringeGreatAgain

Yes I call the two games Star Wars Miniatures Battles (by West End Games)D6 and Star Wars Miniatures (by Wizards of the Coast) D20. Also "Star Wars miniatures" may refer to many different games and toys. So more specific terms I find helpful.

The "fringe" in D20 allowed (among other absurd things) the Empire to recruit mon calamari, jawas and tusken raiders to form a warband, Jabba the Hutt and Leia in a bikini to be friends, a force consising of Lando, Han, Chewie, Bossk and Boba Fett, and of course, one could use Darth Vader to lead an ewok strike team.

And that was just in the first wave. It got far sillier after that.

I've been told that X-Wing suffered from similar issues though I don't personally know.

This is the kind of thing people are afraid of with such a faction. Normally I'm all for flexibility in list building but, this type of thing wouldn't work out well in Legion. The reason the above possibilities worked out ok in D20 basically boil down to it being such a small scale game. Few people would actually do such things. In Legion, I think a "fringe" force would rapidly be used to figure out how to short-circuit game balance and ruin the Star Wars atmosphere. I think FFG learned this in Imperial Assault (skirmish mode) when they (presumably accidentally) made it so that the Mercenary faction pretty had to take C-3PO and a certain rebel PC in every list and for awhile an ugnaught list was dominating the tournament scene.

If a game is the least bit competitive, flexible 3rd party factions are really hard to get right. Warhammer 40,000 (and the old Fantasy game) is/was always having problems with various rules for allies. I think they'll hold off on having a much neutral forces to choose from in order to avoid game balance issues.

Edited December 1, 2018 by TauntaunScout

[FlyingAnchors 4,600]

I don’t want a “scum” faction per say, like in X-wing. I think legion would be better suited to sub-factions. Like say have Fenn Rau and the protectors as a mandolorian sub-faction.

then you could potentially have clan Wren and death watch. All of these sub factions could be supported by a generic “mandolorian merc” core unit box.

Edited December 1, 2018 by FlyingAnchors

[devin.pike.1989 1,546]

Why is everyone still talking ewoks and jawas???  

[Derrault 1,091]

Just now, devin.pike.1989 said:

Why is everyone still talking ewoks and jawas???  

I can’t speak to the Jawas, but Ewoks are certainly more interesting than a scum faction. 

[frankelee 75]

I can't really imagine them doing a Scum faction with Legion given how tied to the movies they are. It seems like it's their creative MO to give it the pure flavor of what's on film and not mix in anything else. That being said, I've also imagined them selling a seven man unit made up of just different random goons from inside Jabba's palace and it seems like something I would want to buy.

[devin.pike.1989 1,546]

12 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I can’t speak to the Jawas, but Ewoks are certainly more interesting than a scum faction. 

What i mean is that people keep talking about how jawas and ewoks are  not appropriate for a scum faction then turning right around add acting like that is all that a scum faction would be

[TylerTT 1,295]

49 minutes ago, frankelee said:

I can't really imagine them doing a Scum faction with Legion given how tied to the movies they are. It seems like it's their creative MO to give it the pure flavor of what's on film and not mix in anything else. That being said, I've also imagined them selling a seven man unit made up of just different random goons from inside Jabba's palace and it seems like something I would want to buy.

Yeah I remember all those Wookiee Warrior squads in ROTJ. 

[frankelee 75]

9 hours ago, TylerTT said:

Yeah I remember all those Wookiee Warrior squads in ROTJ. 

Oh yeah, they necessarily have to throw some extra stuff in on the margins. There were no Rebel walkers in the movies, though they picked a very movie possible model design out of the Star Wars universe and put an Endor trooper on it, and the special weapons options for units too. Though, maybe if you were as big a Star Wars fan as I, you would have seen the obscure third movie of the Prequel Trilogy which features one or more Wookies holding weapons. But well... I'm something of an expert 😎.

Hopefully they'll go outside the movies a little more soon for extra vehicles, but yeah, I take it a lot of people haven't noticed this: for a company that just made a huge Star Wars board game featuring lots of interesting new heroes and characters from the Expanded Universe, they are conspicuously not using them, and it wasn't a design accident.

-Edit: Ah yes, I looked it up again and the AT-RT is a design right out of Revenge of the Sith as well. And as long as they're digging back past the OT, I think that definitely makes the Star Wars Holiday Special fair game too. It's kind of a movie.

Edited December 2, 2018 by frankelee

[Derrault 1,091]

11 hours ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

What i mean is that people keep talking about how jawas and ewoks are  not appropriate for a scum faction then turning right around add acting like that is all that a scum faction would be

It’s more that people are interested in otherwise unaligned species like the Tuskans and Jawas, and Scum often presents like it’s a catch-all for anything that doesn’t fit into the Rebel/Imperial dichotomy. Which obviously doesn’t work thematically, hence the antipathy.

Once all the interesting species are set aside, there is little to recommend Scum existing as a distinct side, and much to support just making some one-off sets (ie An Ewok army, A Tuskan Raiding Party).

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

21 hours ago, Derrault said:

It’s more that people are interested in otherwise unaligned species like the Tuskans and Jawas, and Scum often presents like it’s a catch-all for anything that doesn’t fit into the Rebel/Imperial dichotomy. Which obviously doesn’t work thematically, hence the antipathy.

Once all the interesting species are set aside, there is little to recommend Scum existing as a distinct side, and much to support just making some one-off sets (ie An Ewok army, A Tuskan Raiding Party).

I would buy an 800 point boxed army of Jawas, Tusken Raiders, or Ewoks. (or several small boxes of them totaling 800 points and containing a commander a 3 corps).

I would not buy a random squad of Tusken Raiders to ally with something else.

I would buy a random squad of ewoks to join up with my rebels.

I would buy a generic squad of 7 blaster toting aliens reminiscent of the Cantina and/or Jabba's Palace, which could be hired by either my rebel or imperial forces. Such a squad could contain a jawa or two and I'd still buy it: a few were lurking in Jabba's palace after all.

I would buy 800 points worth of such "Cantina Gunhavers" squads to use as a standalone mercenary  army. I would not want it to be required that it be led by Jabba, Boba, or some other movie icon.

Edited December 3, 2018 by TauntaunScout

[BadMotivator 1,263]

Well they would probably also have a generic commander like Rebels and Imperials got. A Mandolorian Captain or a Black Sun Vizier.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

6 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

A Mandolorian... or a Black Sun...

That's not very generic then.

[BadMotivator 1,263]

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

That's not very generic then.

Of course it is. If you aren’t a named character, you are generic.

[AverageBoss 233]

Why not the Shadow Collective? It is canon, it has structure, it is a Scum faction, Maul is its figurehead. Everyone wins.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Collective

[Xiervak 161]

This thread serves as a perfectly good as example as to why they should not release a Fringe faction: it's just too complicated. There are too many variables to contend with; too many toes that may get stepped on. 

Here's the thing: OT (Rebel, Empire), Prequels (Republic, Seps), Sequels (First Order, Resistence.) There are six factions that FFG can publish total without having to slog into this debate. That's plenty of content to release for the next 3 years, easily. Maybe once all six of these factions have been fleshed out, they'll get around to a Fringe faction, but until then, the much easier-to-pick low-hanging fruit is still out there, waiting to be picked; why bother trimming the tree of Fringe (in other words, having serious moral debates as to who constitutes Fringe, how much overlap there can be between certain subfactions, etc.) when they can instead focus on creating Republic, Seps, FO, and Resistance? 
 

[Zrob314 833]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:49 AM, frankelee said:

Oh yeah, they necessarily have to throw some extra stuff in on the margins. There were no Rebel walkers in the movies, though they picked a very movie possible model design out of the Star Wars universe and put an Endor trooper on it, and the special weapons options for units too. Though, maybe if you were as big a Star Wars fan as I, you would have seen the obscure third movie of the Prequel Trilogy which features one or more Wookies holding weapons. But well... I'm something of an expert 😎.

Hopefully they'll go outside the movies a little more soon for extra vehicles, but yeah, I take it a lot of people haven't noticed this: for a company that just made a huge Star Wars board game featuring lots of interesting new heroes and characters from the Expanded Universe, they are conspicuously not using them, and it wasn't a design accident.

-Edit: Ah yes, I looked it up again and the AT-RT is a design right out of Revenge of the Sith as well. And as long as they're digging back past the OT, I think that definitely makes the Star Wars Holiday Special fair game too. It's kind of a movie.

Non movie references have been fair game in the FFG line for some time.  Screed/Demolisher/Gladiator SD are from the Droids Cartoon and that's like Wave 1 of Armada.  We also already have the viable unit that came from the Holiday Special.  His name is Boba Fett, friend. 

[frankelee 75]

1 minute ago, Zrob314 said:

Non movie references have been fair game in the FFG line for some time.  Screed/Demolisher/Gladiator SD are from the Droids Cartoon and that's like Wave 1 of Armada.  We also already have the viable unit that came from the Holiday Special.  His name is Boba Fett, friend. 

But not his dinosaur!!! You're point is quite correct, but I'm referring exclusively to Legion. And exclusively to FFG's decision making concerning the game. They have conspicuously chosen to not include units or characters that aren't directly out of the major movie releases so far. And that's no accident from a company who have treated non-movie references as fair game in X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault.

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

Of course it is. If you aren’t a named character, you are generic.

It's only generic if you want to play Mandalorians. I don't. Never will.

40 minutes ago, Xiervak said:

 

Here's the thing: OT (Rebel, Empire), Prequels (Republic, Seps), Sequels (First Order, Resistence.) There are six factions that FFG can publish total without having to slog into this debate.

Since I only find OT stuff motivating to buy and paint, that's not six factions for my purposes. Mercs would add a 3rd faction for players like me. Now, if I just want mercenaries for background purposes, I'll repaint some rebels, maybe re-write their stats or maybe not, and I've got "mercenaries". But from a collecting standpoint that's no fun.

[Xiervak 161]

12 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Since I only find OT stuff motivating to buy and paint, that's not six factions for my purposes. Mercs would add a 3rd faction for players like me. Now, if I just want mercenaries for background purposes, I'll repaint some rebels, maybe re-write their stats or maybe not, and I've got "mercenaries". But from a collecting standpoint that's no fun.

You aren't the customer base. You're one person. Plenty of people (myself included) would collect all 6.

[buckero0 1,956]

2 hours ago, Xiervak said:

This thread serves as a perfectly good as example as to why they should not release a Fringe faction: it's just too complicated. There are too many variables to contend with; too many toes that may get stepped on. 

 

No the amount of angst that is created indicates true interest.  There are way more people waiting to get in to the game but who are looking for something that isn't cookie-cutter.

There's nothing difficult or complicated about it.  There are entire worlds and volumes of other characters and figures in the Star Wars universe that are not represented by Stormtroopers or No-Name rebels.  We want a faction to represent these other, frankly, more - colorful characters to play in the game Legion. FFG has made it work in everyone of their other games, there is no reason not to make it work in this game.

Edited December 3, 2018 by buckero0

[Xiervak 161]

Just now, buckero0 said:

No the amount of angst that is created indicates true interest.  There are way more people waiting to get in to the game but who are looking for something that isn't cookie-cutter.

There's nothing difficult or complicated about it.  There are entire worlds and volumes of other characters and figures in the Star Wars universe that are not represented by Stormtroopers or No-Name rebels.  We want a faction to represent these other, frankly, more - colorful characters to play in the game Legion. FFG has made it work in everyone of their other games, there is no reason not to make it work in this game.

But look at it from the company's perspective. The amount of creative work it would take to sufficiently make a third faction far exceeds the amount of creative effort it would take release of the 6 I mentioned. Just my opinion of course, but it would make more sense for them to cover all 3 eras first.

[devin.pike.1989 1,546]

Every time this topic resurfaces I have outlined a  basic list of units that could serve as a core of a scum/fringe/underworld faction that would cross multiple eras and be generic enough that it could work as Hutt cartel, Zann consortium, Shadow syndicate or any other organization.  Every time I get ignored by people throwing up their hands and sying "It would be a bunch of jawas and ewoks!"  Really it is not that hard

Corps

Thugs: Pistols and knives.  Civilian clothed humans, rodians, weequay, etc.

Pirates/Gangsters:  Rifles and Body Armor.  

Special Forces:

Gammoreans: Analogous to wookies and IRG.  You could argue that these may be hutt specific but from what I remember in rpgs and such they were fairly ubiquitous and were exported from their homeworld as mercs.  If people absolutely hated this idea they could substitute IG-RM thug droids.

Bounty Hunters/Mercenaries: Not named characters but a generic group of heavily armed and armored professionals.  Analogous to scouts/commandoes

Support:

Swoop Bike gangers:  Like speeder bikes but no fixed front weapon.  Armed with rifles instead.  Probably a unit of two with the option to add a third with special weapon.

Mounted gun:  Deck gun, quad cannon, e-web...  Any of these would work.

Heavy:

Hover tank

Skiff

Commanders:  Jabba, Hondo, Vizago, Azmorrigan, any number of other unsavory types plus a generic Weequay, Nikto or Rodian Gang boss.

Operatives:  Any of the hundreds of named star wars characters that populate the underbelly of the star wars universe.

 

This would provide a good generic base that still captures the feel of star wars criminals.  They could then add Crimson Dawn troopers, Mandalorian Mercs, Zann Consortium whatevers or any other flavored unit that you could plug in to theme your force.  Just like they have done with the two existing factions.

 

[TauntaunScout 4,276]

1 hour ago, devin.pike.1989 said:

Every time this topic resurfaces I have outlined a  basic list of units that could serve as a core of a scum/fringe/underworld faction that would cross multiple eras and be generic enough that it could work as Hutt cartel, Zann consortium, Shadow syndicate or any other organization.  Every time I get ignored by people throwing up their hands and sying "It would be a bunch of jawas and ewoks!"  Really it is not that hard

Corps

Thugs: Pistols and knives.  Civilian clothed humans, rodians, weequay, etc.

Pirates/Gangsters:  Rifles and Body Armor.  

Special Forces:

Gammoreans: Analogous to wookies and IRG.  You could argue that these may be hutt specific but from what I remember in rpgs and such they were fairly ubiquitous and were exported from their homeworld as mercs.  If people absolutely hated this idea they could substitute IG-RM thug droids.

Bounty Hunters/Mercenaries: Not named characters but a generic group of heavily armed and armored professionals.  Analogous to scouts/commandoes

Support:

Swoop Bike gangers:  Like speeder bikes but no fixed front weapon.  Armed with rifles instead.  Probably a unit of two with the option to add a third with special weapon.

Mounted gun:  Deck gun, quad cannon, e-web...  Any of these would work.

Heavy:

Hover tank

Skiff

Commanders:  Jabba, Hondo, Vizago, Azmorrigan, any number of other unsavory types plus a generic Weequay, Nikto or Rodian Gang boss.

Operatives:  Any of the hundreds of named star wars characters that populate the underbelly of the star wars universe.

 

This would provide a good generic base that still captures the feel of star wars criminals.  They could then add Crimson Dawn troopers, Mandalorian Mercs, Zann Consortium whatevers or any other flavored unit that you could plug in to theme your force.  Just like they have done with the two existing factions.

 

This... is everything I want a 3rd faction to be... So many <3's for this...

[Zrob314 833]

On 12/3/2018 at 10:38 AM, frankelee said:

But not his dinosaur!!! You're point is quite correct, but I'm referring exclusively to Legion. And exclusively to FFG's decision making concerning the game. They have conspicuously chosen to not include units or characters that aren't directly out of the major movie releases so far. And that's no accident from a company who have treated non-movie references as fair game in X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault.

Or, you know, the line is less than a year old.