Emerald Empire "Shipping Now"

[KRKappel 2,024]

8 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I would say the issue is more about a distinct lack of in-setting explanation for the strange Rokugani linguistics. For example, we can say that the Founding Kami spoke not!Japanese but the humans spoke not!English, so modern Rokugani speak "Weeaboo" as a result of the Kami's not!Japanese obviously having a great influence on their not!English. Hence the strange linguistic artifacts in the setting.

This is actually a problem I often have with the setting: I'm told that Rokugan is not Japan, but the explanation of "how" and "why" are missing, and it kinda leaves me hang out to dry when I want to make sense out of the differences. 

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm probably a lot newer to the IP than many of you, but I just assumed it was it's own fantasy setting, not unlike the many D&D settings or Middle Earth. England and Europe, to my knowledge, don't really come up in those games, even though they were clearly inspired by those cultures. L5R merely borrows from a handful of Asian cultures in the same way (and not just Japan, as there are clear influences from Mongolia, China, etc). L5R still has kami, sure, and D&D still has gods. There is no location in L5R that later becomes Tokyo. I hear you, but I don't see it as needing some complicated explanation. It's just it's own fantasy setting entirely. There was not a historical Emperor Hantei Dynastic line (in fact, the word means something entirely different in terms of real Japanese emperor's). There's nothing about the L5R setting I'm aware of that is meant to lead anyone to believe it is somehow supposed to represent a historical Japan. If anything, the map of Rokugan has a lot more in common with China. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by KRKappel

[nameless ronin 706]

13 minutes ago, KRKappel said:

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm probably a lot newer to the IP than many of you, but I just assumed it was it's own fantasy setting, not unlike the many D&D settings or Middle Earth. England and Europe, to my knowledge, don't really come up in those games, even though they were clearly inspired by those cultures. L5R merely borrows from a handful of Asian cultures in the same way (and not just Japan, as there are clear influences from Mongolia, China, etc). L5R still has kami, sure, and D&D still has gods. There is no location in L5R that later becomes Tokyo. I hear you, but I don't see it as needing some complicated explanation. It's just it's own fantasy setting entirely. There was not a historical Emperor Hantei Dynastic line (in fact, the word means something entirely different in terms of real Japanese emperor's). There's nothing about the L5R setting I'm aware of that is meant to lead anyone to believe it is somehow supposed to represent a historical Japan. If anything, the map of Rokugan has a lot more in common with China. 

"Rokugan is an amalgamation of oriental medieval cultures with a strong focus on Japan" is a great start for an explanation, since it sets the tone for and expectations of the audience. But from there on, I'm with you that it needs to be explained as its own setting. It's easy to point out in what aspects it's similar to real life early 2nd millenium Japan, while it's impossible to start from a historical Japanese setting and point out the myriad ways Rokugan is *not* like that. It's also a lot more convenient to suggest "just go with what seems appropriate based on what you know of Japanese history from whatever sources you are familiar, whether they're really accurate or not" for whatever is unclear than to go "assume everything is historically correct unless the book says it's not or the things you know about the setting suggest that what's historically correct makes no sense". I'm sure that might rub historians and purists the wrong way, but the far greater majority of us are not and can't be historians and/or purists and we have games to play. Time to crack on with it.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

The difference between Rokugan and, say, Forgotten Realms is that the latter does not require intricate knowledge of setting details for 90% of the "officially promoted" adventures - the former very much does. Playing Forgotten Realms for a deep exploration of Thesk culture is the exception (your average FR player would look up Thesk in the Bestiary), while Lion Clan ancestral cult shenanigans will come up in almost every L5R game even if the  Lion Clan itself is nowhere near sight. Thesk culture doesn't matter, it doesn't have to make sense, it is just a little something for the characters to look at between two clashes with Szass Tam (f- the Thay btw). Lion Clan culture, on the other hand, absolutely matters and should be solidly written because minuscule details will determine life and death. 

[Victarion13 56]

21 hours ago, narukagami said:

In case anyone is wondering, it's because they didn't used to have separate words for "green" and "blue." "Midori" meaning "green" is a relatively new thing. 😎

I know. It's great to read Heian jidai poems and wonder if they are talking about the sky or the sea or just grass XD

[nameless ronin 706]

7 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The difference between Rokugan and, say, Forgotten Realms is that the latter does not require intricate knowledge of setting details for 90% of the "officially promoted" adventures - the former very much does. Playing Forgotten Realms for a deep exploration of Thesk culture is the exception (your average FR player would look up Thesk in the Bestiary), while Lion Clan ancestral cult shenanigans will come up in almost every L5R game even if the  Lion Clan itself is nowhere near sight. Thesk culture doesn't matter, it doesn't have to make sense, it is just a little something for the characters to look at between two clashes with Szass Tam (f- the Thay btw). Lion Clan culture, on the other hand, absolutely matters and should be solidly written because minuscule details will determine life and death. 

Eh... The setting matters. A lot. It's not Rokugan if you don't get that feel, and all the formal societal rules inform the roleplaying. But minuscule details determining life and death? I stand by my earlier comment: we have games to play, time to crack on with it. Getting some small detail wrong is not (supposed to be) the end of the world. We're all friends at my table. We all want to have fun. We're not going to be sitting around scrutinizing each other's every in-character word and gesture to make sure we catch all the hidden meanings and can correct every tiny mistake. All this setting fluff is a means to an end, it's not the end itself.

[Daeglan 5,950]

On 12/25/2018 at 5:47 PM, AtoMaki said:

The difference between Rokugan and, say, Forgotten Realms is that the latter does not require intricate knowledge of setting details for 90% of the "officially promoted" adventures - the former very much does. Playing Forgotten Realms for a deep exploration of Thesk culture is the exception (your average FR player would look up Thesk in the Bestiary), while Lion Clan ancestral cult shenanigans will come up in almost every L5R game even if the  Lion Clan itself is nowhere near sight. Thesk culture doesn't matter, it doesn't have to make sense, it is just a little something for the characters to look at between two clashes with Szass Tam (f- the Thay btw). Lion Clan culture, on the other hand, absolutely matters and should be solidly written because minuscule details will determine life and death. 

That is because forgotten realms is a western culture and more intuitive to us.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

On 12/25/2018 at 11:50 AM, KRKappel said:

Further, anyone in FFG's position is going to want to get the best writers their budget can get them. In my experience, editors are interested in three things. 1.) How good is their prose? 2.) Do they hit their deadlines? 3.) Are they easy to work with? There are surprisingly few folks out there who can manage all three and are affordable for an RPG publisher's budget. 

And not a few of those quit being affordable because they get discovered, sometimes thanks to their initial game-fiction work. (I'm thinking of people like Jeff Swycaffer, David Webber, Chuck Gannon, Martin Daugherty.) One of the best game adventures I've run (and I've run it 4 times) was by Margaret Weis, who was propelled to the expensive crowd by her work for TSR. Likewise the guy who created Drizzt. (I have to say, hearing Ice-T reading a D&D novel as an audiobook is a hoot. Hearing him complain about it is better still.)

 

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

On 12/25/2018 at 3:12 PM, KRKappel said:

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm probably a lot newer to the IP than many of you, but I just assumed it was it's own fantasy setting, not unlike the many D&D settings or Middle Earth. England and Europe, to my knowledge, don't really come up in those games, even though they were clearly inspired by those cultures. L5R merely borrows from a handful of Asian cultures in the same way (and not just Japan, as there are clear influences from Mongolia, China, etc). L5R still has kami, sure, and D&D still has gods. There is no location in L5R that later becomes Tokyo. I hear you, but I don't see it as needing some complicated explanation. It's just it's own fantasy setting entirely. There was not a historical Emperor Hantei Dynastic line (in fact, the word means something entirely different in terms of real Japanese emperor's). There's nothing about the L5R setting I'm aware of that is meant to lead anyone to believe it is somehow supposed to represent a historical Japan. If anything, the map of Rokugan has a lot more in common with China. 

Except that, from First Edition, L5R is a Samurai game - and Samurai existed nowhere except Japan†. John Wick explicitly linked Rokugan to Pre-Tokugawa Japan.

He did include the weasel words, "Rokugan is Not Japan"... but John also has said that people should play L5R as Japanese as they want it to be. John always includes such weasel words. Saves on litigation later.

†Noting that Parts of Manchuria and Korea have, at various points, been part of Imperial Japan. And not just in WW II.

Edited December 27, 2018 by AK_Aramis
Clarification

[AtoMaki 1,431]

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

That is because forgotten realms is a western culture and more intuitive to us.

I dunno but Rokugan fits very well into the part of western culture that tells us how samurai culture should look like. One can even make an argument that Rokugan should be more intuitive than Faerün because the latter has a huge diversity of cultures and some very outlandish ones too while the former is a fairly monolithic slab of Samurai As You Always Imagined Them.

[nameless ronin 706]

8 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I dunno but Rokugan fits very well into the part of western culture that tells us how samurai culture should look like. One can even make an argument that Rokugan should be more intuitive than Faerün because the latter has a huge diversity of cultures and some very outlandish ones too while the former is a fairly monolithic slab of Samurai As You Always Imagined Them.

Many samurai movies are kind of Rokugan-adjacent though, due to the Great Clans and their service to the Empire making it a much more unified setting. Samurai culture is one thing, but the actual setting is a whole other kettle of fish.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

9 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Many samurai movies are kind of Rokugan-adjacent though, due to the Great Clans and their service to the Empire making it a much more unified setting. Samurai culture is one thing, but the actual setting is a whole other kettle of fish.

That's why I say that Rokugan is what amounts to western samurai culture. For example, the Bushido used in Rokugan is rooted in Christianity, and I joke you not here.

[Daeglan 5,950]

9 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I dunno but Rokugan fits very well into the part of western culture that tells us how samurai culture should look like. One can even make an argument that Rokugan should be more intuitive than Faerün because the latter has a huge diversity of cultures and some very outlandish ones too while the former is a fairly monolithic slab of Samurai As You Always Imagined Them.

Well sure. But many people arent afraid to do their own spin on these cultures. I think Many people dont think they have as much of an understanding of the culture as they want.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well sure. But many people arent afraid to do their own spin on these cultures.

That's not really an excuse for "sloppy" setting writing. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

Just now, AtoMaki said:

That's not really an excuse for "sloppy" setting writing. 

I dont see sloppy setting writing

 

[AtoMaki 1,431]

52 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont see sloppy setting writing

It is just "sloppy" but not really sloppy. I couldn't find a better word for it . Basically, there are a few confusing artifacts in the setting that just kinda exist, and it is a little unclear why we have them in the first place. The case of 'Hai' is a good example.

[Ni Fang 265]

3 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It is just "sloppy" but not really sloppy. I couldn't find a better word for it . Basically, there are a few confusing artifacts in the setting that just kinda exist, and it is a little unclear why we have them in the first place. The case of 'Hai' is a good example.

"Hai" is Chinese for "Good," also Japanese for "Good" Though its pronoiunced/heard as "Haio"

I know this because I said it a lot in my family when prasing my kids for good work on their chores and schoolwork

[Avatar111 553]

49 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It is just "sloppy" but not really sloppy. I couldn't find a better word for it . Basically, there are a few confusing artifacts in the setting that just kinda exist, and it is a little unclear why we have them in the first place. The case of 'Hai' is a good example.

yeah "Sloppy" is a bit of a harsh word considering they must have spent a lot of time doing the product... and it is a nice product. So i'm grateful it exists! And I will buy most of it.

it is just unfortunate they are slightly lacking general game direction. feels like there is no leader or someone with a clear vision when it comes to gluing everything together. it does feel, sometimes, like an amalgam of employees working on the product and doing their part with nobody holding the reins so sometimes you get those weird inconsistencies, most of the time in the rules, but sometimes in other parts too.

still, ❤️ this new game ! despite its flaws.

[Daeglan 5,950]

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

It is just "sloppy" but not really sloppy. I couldn't find a better word for it . Basically, there are a few confusing artifacts in the setting that just kinda exist, and it is a little unclear why we have them in the first place. The case of 'Hai' is a good example.

I dont understand what.you mean? What is wrongnwith Hai

[AtoMaki 1,431]

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

What is wrongnwith Hai

It sounds a little ridiculous in an environment where people (apparently) speak English. The honorifics are a bit better off because they are honorifics thus don't have to make sense, but a character putting a hearty "Hai!" after a full-English dialogue is a little... pointless/ridiculous. The enduring existence of "Hai" is also especially jarring because "Eta" and "Banzai" did meet the chopping block.

[Tonbo Karasu 2,606]

11 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It sounds a little ridiculous in an environment where people (apparently) speak English. The honorifics are a bit better off because they are honorifics thus don't have to make sense, but a character putting a hearty "Hai!" after a full-English dialogue is a little... pointless/ridiculous. The enduring existence of "Hai" is also especially jarring because "Eta" and "Banzai" did meet the chopping block.

Are you aware of the concept of a translation convention?  Romans don't actually speak English between each other, but the actors do in films like Ben Hur and Gladiator so that the audience who are watching can understand what's going on.  However, there might occasionally be comments like "Ave Caesar!" to remind the viewer that this is in fact taking place in ancient Rome and adjust their perceptions.

This is the same thing.  I'll note that "eta" was replaced with "burakumin", a hardly less non-English word.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Tonbo Karasu

[AtoMaki 1,431]

5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Are you aware of the concept of a translation convention?  Romans don't actually speak English between each other, but the actors do in films like Ben Hur and Gladiator so that the audience who are watching can understand what's going on.  However, there might occasionally be comments like "Ave Caesar!" to remind the viewer that this is in fact taking place in ancient Rome and adjust their perceptions.

The difference is that "Hai" is not a special word that conveys something unique and culture-specific like "Ave Caesar!" Again, it is just kinda... there. 

9 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

This is the same thing.  I'll note that "eta" was replaced with "burakumin", a hardly less non-English word.

And I did not say that this was a good thing .

[WHW 1,817]

Hai has plenty of culture infused into it. It is less of direct "yes" and more of a "polite affirmation of whatever was just said" - it can be "yes", it can be "no", it can be "I agree", it can be "That is true", and so on. It is also quite polite, so just like honorifics, it reflects the status dynamics between the people involved and the degrees of respect floating there. 

[AtoMaki 1,431]

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

Hai has plenty of culture infused into it. It is less of direct "yes" and more of a "polite affirmation of whatever was just said" - it can be "yes", it can be "no", it can be "I agree", it can be "That is true", and so on. It is also quite polite, so just like honorifics, it reflects the status dynamics between the people involved and the degrees of respect floating there. 

I wouldn't have a problem if this was explained in the game like this. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by AtoMaki

[Daeglan 5,950]

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I wouldn't have a problem if this was explained in the game like this. 

Why does it need to be explained? We dont need Ave Ceasar explained either. 

[nameless ronin 706]

8 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I wouldn't have a problem if this was explained in the game like this. 

Is any of this actually in the game to begin with? I assumed this was about the fictions...