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Duciris

Unicorn Clan Pack

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38 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

So you start the first turn down 1 fate, but you can deny the opponent use of their stronghold and so long as you can get the opponent to reveal 1 province a turn, you can be even on turn 2 and have more fate by turn 3.

You seem to be quite mistaken about how Shiro Shinjo works: "this stronghold" means Shiro Shinjo itself, just like on every other stronghold published so far. Also, the effect counts the opponent's province, so you're the one doing the revealing. Which means you should aim for revealing at least 2 provinces turn 1 and the other 2 turn 2 (you can do that much just by declaring conflicts; Iuchi Farseer and Chasing the Sun can make you go even faster). That way, your increased production turn 2 will compensate for your initial lowered production and you'll have more on subsequent turns.

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2 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

You seem to be quite mistaken about how Shiro Shinjo works: "this stronghold" means Shiro Shinjo itself, just like on every other stronghold published so far. Also, the effect counts the opponent's province, so you're the one doing the revealing. Which means you should aim for revealing at least 2 provinces turn 1 and the other 2 turn 2 (you can do that much just by declaring conflicts; Iuchi Farseer and Chasing the Sun can make you go even faster). That way, your increased production turn 2 will compensate for your initial lowered production and you'll have more on subsequent turns.

Oh, I did misread it. For some weird reason my first thought was that it would bow both strongholds.

And, yes, obviously if you can get your opponent to reveal 2 provinces a turn, it works even better. I just felt it would be extremely optimistic to expect to attack more than 1 province a turn without losing all of your own provinces in the process.

We can quibble about who is doing the revealing, but since I don't touch my opponent's cards, they are the ones physically turning them over so they are doing the revealing regardless if it is a response to my actions.

But, yeah, it doesn't bow the enemies stronghold as I thought on my first read through... which means it isn't nearly as good as I thought it was. Still, it is a stronghold action that doesn't require any of your cards to have the unicorn nor cavalry action, so it'll probably still be the go-to stronghold for Imperial and Mantis players.

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On 12/3/2018 at 2:31 AM, TheHobgoblyn said:

And, yes, obviously if you can get your opponent to reveal 2 provinces a turn, it works even better. I just felt it would be extremely optimistic to expect to attack more than 1 province a turn without losing all of your own provinces in the process.

Well, with the cards we have, we can easily revel 4 province in turn 1. Problem is: do we have fate for it? And also, how much we will or can "lost" in one turn, without lose the game?

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Farseer can also reveal the stronghold province early, and since provinces with on reveal reactions are still pretty common (biggest example  being rally), so that can be used to mess with your opponent's endgame defense.

Also, wouldn't the new SH count the stronghold province once it gets revealed as well? and since farseer can do it early, couldn't we reasonably expect 11 fate draws instead of the 10 that everyone keeps citing?

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31 minutes ago, psychie said:

Farseer can also reveal the stronghold province early, and since provinces with on reveal reactions are still pretty common (biggest example  being rally), so that can be used to mess with your opponent's endgame defense.

Also, wouldn't the new SH count the stronghold province once it gets revealed as well? and since farseer can do it early, couldn't we reasonably expect 11 fate draws instead of the 10 that everyone keeps citing?

No, because the new SH (and a lot of the new Unicorn cards) specifically says “non-stronghold provinces”

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1 hour ago, Khudzlin said:

Yup. Messing with "when revealed" provinces is cool, though. Revealing Restoration of Balance with a T1 Iuchi Farseer is the most extreme example.

Even without revealing Resto, Farseer in T1 is still good against dragon. You can still draw 5, attack the revealed province, burn your cards there to break, and then attack any other province without having to worry about it being Resto. Hard mulligan for Farseer against Dragon is gonna be mandatory  

Of course, the most ideal play is having two Farseer T1, buy both without fate, attack the other two provinces, and then start T2 with 10 Fate. You’ll probably lose a province T1, but totally worth it. 

Edited by Tabris2k

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1 hour ago, Tabris2k said:

Of course, the most ideal play is having two Farseer T1, buy both without fate, attack the other two provinces, and then start T2 with 10 Fate. You’ll probably lose a province T1, but totally worth it. 

This is why, arguably, the Shiro Shinjo deck should just accept the loss of the T1 Province as the price to play the game. You need to flop two provinces on T1 to get Fate equity. The question really comes down to what are they going to pack under their Stronghold, since that is where they are going to have to turn the game around.

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45 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

This is why, arguably, the Shiro Shinjo deck should just accept the loss of the T1 Province as the price to play the game. You need to flop two provinces on T1 to get Fate equity. The question really comes down to what are they going to pack under their Stronghold, since that is where they are going to have to turn the game around.

Pilgrimage. 

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8 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Pilgrimage. 

Pilgrimage or Entrenched Position are the two that I am seeing at the moment. The question comes whether or not they will get something along the lines of Sacred Sanctuary level of good to put under instead.

Entrenched Position has the advantage of being able to drop Captive Audience to turn a Political conflict at the SH into a Military.

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10 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Pilgrimage. 

It really depends on role.  If you are on Keeper than yes Pilgrimage or Rally are probably the right call.  If you are seeker though it depends on Element as you will want the economy boost that an early flip by your opponent to bring you to fate parity for the turn, so those two provinces likely need to be in the row to maximize the odds of being hit turn.  I'm not sure I agree Entrenched is the right province of stronghold as yes the ability to flip with Captive while nice does mean you aren't able to run Upholding Authority to mitigate the penalty for the province you are likely to lose anyway if revealed turn 1, or Public Forums to act as a speed bump and delay the break you expect to take.

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Yeah, I think Unicorn will benefit more by having “on break” provinces in their row. Maybe even to the point of choosing FoF as their restricted card. 

They don’t need so many economy effects, because Shiro Shinjo makes up for that, but if you’re gonna lose a province T1, make sure they’re gonna regret it. The tempo swing of a FoF or Upholding first turn, paired with 9-10 fate next turn should be more than enough to offset the loss of a province. They can even force the opponent to retreat and prevent the break. 

Edited by Tabris2k

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2 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Pilgrimage. 

This!  I have been running pilgrimage under my box with my crab deck since core.  It lets me not care as much about my main row because even a token defense usually stops the stronghold break and the lack of ring effects can be devastating.  My opponent has to keep throwing everything at the attacks and then can't defend when I crack back.     

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I didn't notice the non-stronghold bit, however the farseer doesn't have that requirement, so while using her to flip the SH province won't help much with the other stuff, it could still be useful in a few situations, like flipping it on the turn you plan to attack, or after you've got the others all flipped anyway. I mean, if you play with the intention to flip as many provinces as quickly as possible you are guaranteed to have all four of them up by the end of turn 2, so if you see her at any point after that it's a good play, and even on turn 2 it could be a good play if you are otherwise fairly certain that walking into whatever provinces aren't already flipped is a good idea that turn, since you are getting her ability off after the SHs fate gain for the turn anyway, so if you are reasonably certain that you'll get whatever remains flipped by the end of the turn, and that it is acceptable to do so by walking into them, using her to flip the SH province could easily be a good idea, get that bomb defused as early as possible, and if it isn't a bomb but some other kind of trap, you now know what it is before walking into it.

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That was being discussed earlier on Facebook. People are pointing out that Trading on the Sand Road allows you to play the opponent's cards as well as yours. This is mind-blowing...!

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14 minutes ago, Ascarel said:

That was being discussed earlier on Facebook. People are pointing out that Trading on the Sand Road allows you to play the opponent's cards as well as yours. This is mind-blowing...!

Yup. That was where I saw them first. I checked to see if they were up here, and they weren't... So this was the easiest way for me to get them on these boards.

Trading on the Sand Road ALSO takes the cards off your deck, so your Opponent can play using your cards. I think it is going to fall into the same category as Oracle of Stone and The Perfect Gift, as cards that help your opponent as much as it helps you, and thus is not worth playing.

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17 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Yup. That was where I saw them first. I checked to see if they were up here, and they weren't... So this was the easiest way for me to get them on these boards.

Trading on the Sand Road ALSO takes the cards off your deck, so your Opponent can play using your cards. I think it is going to fall into the same category as Oracle of Stone and The Perfect Gift, as cards that help your opponent as much as it helps you, and thus is not worth playing.

I get that. But frankly, apart from Cloud the Mind, I see few cards I wouldn't let my opponent play in order to get my chance to throw AFWTD back at a Scorpion's face. 😉

Edited by Ascarel

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57 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Yup. That was where I saw them first. I checked to see if they were up here, and they weren't... So this was the easiest way for me to get them on these boards.

Trading on the Sand Road ALSO takes the cards off your deck, so your Opponent can play using your cards. I think it is going to fall into the same category as Oracle of Stone and The Perfect Gift, as cards that help your opponent as much as it helps you, and thus is not worth playing.

But they also don't count as in your hand. So it counters Resto. And Upholding Authority. And Policy Debate.

It also counters Libraries, decks trying to bid low, etc.

Also if you have a lot of trait or clan limited cards that your opponent will be unable to play.

Edited by HamHamJ2

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On 12/8/2018 at 9:46 PM, Kaito Kikaze said:

Maybe. Or it'll replace Ornate Fan and they'll be more likely to run Captive Audience to maximize on military advantage. 

Yes and no. I saw many Unicorns don't use Ornate Fan anymore because we have Invocation of Ash, so probably run The curved blade and Invocation of Ash only

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