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Horiuchi Daimyo

Please may I have an Idiots' Guide to l5r lore

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Altansarnai doesn’t deserve a reputation for compassion. Why does the stranger Akari deserve her compassion but not Shono and Mitsuko? How about her retainers whose lives will be lost in a pointless war with the Lion? Altansarnai’s actions are just reckless. Placating Akari is nothing more than Altansarnai rationalizing doing what she wanted rather than her duty. By the time Shono calls her out, she’s completely deluded herself into thinking she’s acting righteously.

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Also, the notion that the Ikoma engineered the treaty to generate a casus belli against the Unicorn doesn’t hold water. For one thing, if this was the plan then it failed spectacularly, at first, because not only did the Ide negotiate the terms but also Altansarnai endorsed the terms. For another thing, the Lion were getting everything they wanted under the treaty so why fight the Unicorn, or more precisely, fight them for what, when there is already all-but-war against the Crane?

Note the person arguing this theory also argued that the Lion got all of the bargain with none of the cost  ...

So which is it?

Did they want the treaty to stand because they gained so much for so little? Or did they want the treaty to fail so they could fight for everything they already gained under the treaty? This second strategy is supposed to be “smart” ... ?

Again note how this presumes the Ide are just rubes who will agree to anything for no apparent reason. Funny way to defend the Unicorn! It’s so obvious this is just hatred for Lion masquerading (poorly!) as sympathy for Unicorn.

- - - - -

What’s a lot more probable is, one faction within the Unicorn Clan wants respect from the other Great Clans (I’ll call them the “conventional faction”) while another faction resents needing anyone’s approval. The treaty was negotiated by the conventional faction. Altansarnai was persuaded by them that the terms were necessary for Unicorn to be accepted by the other Great Clans. But she never agreed with this in her heart and only assented because it’s what Bushido demands. We’re not tlking about some Clan-specific version of Bushido here. We’re talking about a mainstream Rokugan set of values, embraced by those Unicorn who want their clan to fit in better with the rest of the Empire. This is why Shono thinks his mother’s actions are dishonorable.

Shinjo and the Ki-rin left to learn what threatened the Empire from without but there are Unicorn who now believe the point was to import foreign customs in order to “improve” Rokugan.  I call them the “gaijin faction.” They would gravely oppose the treaty because it de facto acknowledges that the Lion are the measuring stick for how worthy the Unicorn ways and customs are. Now, I don’t think Altansarnai is really ideologically committed to this gaijin viewpoint, either, unlike Komoko. It seems to me that Altansarnai simply adopts the language of this faction to gain political support in her hour of weakness in order to outmaneuver those who initially convinced her to make the treaty. Possibly, she viewed their actions as an attempted coup.

Edited by Manchu

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33 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Why does the stranger Akari deserve her compassion but not Shono and Mitsuko?

She tried to tell Shono that killing his waifu is not a way to go, but he did not really listen... and of course Mitsuko channeled so much angst into that fight she would have died from all the edge either way :D.

Altansarnai is more in the camp of not being a fan of being played. We actually don't know what he thought about the Ikoma guy, this whole "you did it for yourself" was Shono's angle and she tried to shoot him down there but it went straight over the boy. It is kinda like how Tsuko did not tear apart Kuwanan with her bare hands, just more subtle and in-character. 

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You make it sound like Altansarnai had some wisdom to pass down to Shono.

But that was not the case.

Altansarnai’s philosphy of life is not Bushido. She has an alternate view; in her own words: “we should pursue what we want.”

Now tell me how should Shono apply this philosophy in the wake of his Champion’s infamous actions.

The simple truth is, if the only rule is do what you want then, at the end of the day, who actually gets to do what they want is only a matter of who is most powerful. Altansarnai gets what she wants because she is Champion. Akari gets what she wants because it suits Altansarnai. Shono and Mitsuko, howevef, do not get what they want.

This is exactly why Altansarnai is not at all compassionate.

Edited by Manchu

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19 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You make it sound like Altansarnai had some wisdom to pass down to Shono.

Here:

Quote

She stepped forward, placing her hand on his shoulder. "Shono, you are my sun and sky, and your heart is like an untamed river. But you have grown bold, and you are still young. You see only what is directly in front of you. Just as a horse that challenges its rider will surely doom them both, so too will you, should you not trust the path I have chosen."

He looked back. "Can you at least say that, whatever the reasons, your own desires were not among them?"

Her jaw clenched. "We are all fighting invisible battles, Shono. It is not for one to judge those of another."

If Shono had heeded that last sentence, Mitsuko would have survived: if you waifu picks a fight and kills your horse then the proper response is not disemboweling her and being very SAD about it later. 

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1 hour ago, Manchu said:

Altansarnai doesn’t deserve a reputation for compassion. Why does the stranger Akari deserve her compassion but not Shono and Mitsuko? How about her retainers whose lives will be lost in a pointless war with the Lion? Altansarnai’s actions are just reckless. Placating Akari is nothing more than Altansarnai rationalizing doing what she wanted rather than her duty. By the time Shono calls her out, she’s completely deluded herself into thinking she’s acting righteously.

Because she is weighing the immediate certainty of one life versus the potential loses that a war may entail.  Further she is taking steps to try and mitigate the fallout by sending word to the Emperor of her intention to break the agreement and concedes that she will submit to "his" judgement on what the consequences should be and she was willing to accept the consequences of that judgement no matter what it was.  The Lion are the ones who decided to escalate the conflict by seizing the village before the Emperor's judgement was handed down.  

She shows plenty of compassion to the pain that Shono is going through over the loss of a woman he has come to love during their courtship she understands the pain that he is going through and while he is only focused on the short term she has to focus on the wide term effects of what going through with the marriage may have entailed, including the resentment that he and his bride would face from the retainers who resent the fact that she was forced to step aside to placate the Lion.  She tries to avoid putting him in the position of potentially having to face her by planning to go out and face the Lion herself, its Shono who steps up and convinces her that he should lead the force and not his mother.  He recognizes that its a ploy by the Lion to try and divide the Unicorn and that only by showing his support of his mother will he be able to prove them wrong on that front.  

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

Also, the notion that the Ikoma engineered the treaty to generate a casus belli against the Unicorn doesn’t hold water. For one thing, if this was the plan then it failed spectacularly, at first, because not only did the Ide negotiate the terms but also Altansarnai endorsed the terms. For another thing, the Lion were getting everything they wanted under the treaty so why fight when there is already all-but-war against the Crane?

Note the person arguing this theory also argued that the Lion got all of the bargain with none of the cost  ...

So which is it?

Did they want the treaty to stand because they gained so much for so little? Or did they want the treaty to fail so they could fight for everything they already gained under the treaty? This second strategy is supposed to be “smart” ... ?

Again note how this presumes the Ide are just rubes who will agree to anything for no apparent reason. Funny way to defend the Unicorn! It’s so obvious this is just hatred for Lion masquerading (poorly!) as sympathy for Unicorn.

 

You have heard of a no win choice right, you know where regardless of the option chosen one side comes out ahead of the other.  In the case of this deal the Lion have two opportunities either they get the land, the horses and to thumb their nose at the Barbarians and show off to the rest of the Empire with the implication that the position of Ikoma Daimyo (a vassal of the Lion Champion) is more important then the Unicorn Champion thus raising their own political profile.  Or if the negotiations, fail they have the pretense to allow them to walk in and claim the lands that they want while waiving away any guilt with the excuse of we are just claiming what is rightfully ours in recompense for the dishonor the Unicorn have done us, which is what they ended up doing here. 

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

What’s a lot more probable is, one faction within the Unicorn Clan wants respect from the other Great Clans (I’ll call them the “conventional faction”) while another faction resents needing anyone’s approval. The treaty was negotiated by the conventional faction. Altansarnai was persuaded by them that the terms were necessary for Unicorn to be accepted by the other Great Clans. But she never agreed with this in her heart and only assented because it’s what Bushido demands. We’re not tlking about some Clan-specific version of Bushido here. We’re talking about a mainstream Rokugan set of values, embraced by those Unicorn who want their clan to fit in better with the rest of the Empire. This is why Shono thinks his mother’s actions are dishonorable.

Shinjo and the Ki-rin left to learn what threatened the Empire from without but there are Unicorn who now believe the point was to import foreign customs in order to “improve” Rokugan.  I call them the “gaijin faction.” They would gravely oppose a treaty with the Lion because it implicitly acknowledges the intolerable notion that the Lion are the measuring stick for how worthy the Unicorn ways and customs are. Now, I don’t think Altansarnai is really ideologically committed to this viewpoint, either, unlike Komoko. It seems to me that Altansarnai simply adopts the language of this faction to gain political support in her hour of weakness in order to outmaneuver those who initially convinced her to make the treaty. Possibly, she viewed their actions as an attempted coup.

You keep bringing this fact up but if that there must be some grand conspiracy against Altransarnai but then fail to provide any concrete evidence to support it, just baseless conjecture on your part (funny how it runs the same as your argument that Kakita Yoshi is so shrewd that his mishandling of the Crab was actually his precognitive knowledge that the Crab and Mantis would enter into an agreement, #kakitayohsiisafool).  If there was meant to be the sort of conspiracy you describe here with two factions of Unicorn working against each other over the goal to undermine Altransarnai and bring the Unicorn more in line with traditional Rokugani beliefs there would be some sort of mention of that some where in the story.  But there has been nothing of the sort, every single Unicorn fiction has shown that while there is definite tension between the Unicorn at large and the Empire over their culture and how it does and does not acclimate to traditional Rokugani culture, the majority of the clan is supportive of Altransarnai, heck even the Utaku (the most traditional and closest adherents to Bushido of the Unicorn families) were opposed to the marriage.

“The Lion tricked us! You did not know the cost. If you marry him, you leave the clan, and we lose a great leader. We agreed to this marriage before we knew you would become his trophy. Before we knew that by Ikoma custom, the wife takes the husband’s name and joins his lands. We did not ask for him to join your house because we did not know we needed to. It is no loss of face to claim the deal has changed, and if that saves this woman’s life, then all the better.” Curved Blades page 7.   

Kamoko clearly advocates against the deal, and yes she can be argued to be on a warmongering faction since she firmly believes that the Unicorn can stand up to the Lion and need to in order to show their superiority, but those are presented as her views and are being presented as her opinion not those of some greater conspiracy.  The implication was something along the lines of well we have an agreement in principle that Altransarnai will marry a Samurai of the Ikoma, now as we work out the finer details of the deal like the specifics of what holdings may change hands as part of the agreement we mention oh by the way she will have to take his name and abdicate her position because you know tradition. 

Here's my challenge to you show me one concrete in fiction example of some proof of your grand conspiracy, anything that shows their is a faction within the Unicorn working to undermine their champion.  We have it in the Lion where we clearly see that Ujiaki is plotting to undermine Toturi and gather support from the moment he is introduced, he is obviously pushing for a way to remove Toturi from the board to free him from scrutiny over what he is doing.  We further see it in the Crane Unicorn war where there is the question of who hired the mercenaries that have been masquerading as both Lion and Crane troops, and who arranged for Kuwanan to be delivered to Tsuko with the assumption that in her rage and grief over the death of Arasou she would execute him and give one more reason for the Crane and Lion conflict to escalate (he is after all at the moment the heir to the clan).  These are clear examples of some sort of conspiracy going on in the back ground of the Lion so there is every reason to believe that what ever faction is behind this plotting would have an interest in inflaming tensions between the Lion and Unicorn to keep the Lion military mobilized, especially since all signs were pointing to some sort of pending intervention by the Emperor in the Toshi Ranbo situation.  Add the long standing resentment that the Lion have felt for the Unicorn since their return resulted in them having to forfeit significant areas of land to the returning Unicorn and left them with the first notable example of a Lion army failing since they were unable to cope with the cavalry tactics that the returned Unicorn brought with them and yes I'd say we have ample reason to see why a faction of the Lion may be pushing to aggravate the Unicorn so much that they make a misstep that will give them a pretense to petition the Emperor to allow them to go to war (oh look what the end result of the negotiations were).

FFG has been very careful to ensure that we are being presented in most cases with ample evidence that the clans are not black and white good and bad guys, they all operate in a grey area that is more realistic of a society trying to live up to an unattainable ideal and so locked into their mindset that they struggle to deviate from it in any way.

Edited by Schmoozies

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Shono’s decision only outwardly shows unity. Within the ruling house of the Unicorn, there is now a serious divide. If Shono did not go to face Mitsuko, the Lion’s contempt of him and of the Shinjo family and, by extension, of the Unicorn Clan would be entirely confirmed. And I daresay Mitsuko herself would think much less of him — and rightfully so! Shono is demonstrating through acts what honor and duty actually demand of a samurai precisely because he is not confident that his Champion understands. And he is anxious that the Lion, and one might guess especially Mitsuko, and the rest of tye Empire, see that he understands.

Altansarnai speaks of “invisible battles” but Shono lives in the real world where battles are very much visible and their consequences are terrible. Not going himself would not have spared Mitsuko’s life, unless she managed to kill Altansarnai (hardly a happy outocme for her son); but it would certainly have broken her heart to discover her lover was a coward. If Altansarnai cannot understand this harsh reality in Rokugan, and somehow thinks it is even possible for Shono not to go, it is because she truly is a gaijin. What else can you call someone so entirely oblivious to the culture of the Empire.

She has no fear of Imperial censure, either, thanks to reliable connections with the Miya so “submitting to the Emperor’s judgment” is as much an empty formality as any other political grandstanding. The Unicorn have no special claim to sincerity.

As to the intra-Unicorn politics:

Shono himself describes what I would call the “conventionalist” position: “If the Lion had accepted us, the other clans would have no excuse but to do otherwise!” He then quotes his own mother’s teachings in the past, to put the good of the clan over one’s own good, which is just standard Rokugan samurai values. This is a stark contrast to Altansarnai’s current philosophy, “we should pursue what we want.” Note well, that strange, selfish philosophy of Altansarnai isn’t the “gaijinist” position, either. Kamoko sums up that platform: “In Rokugan  they cling to outdated customs ...” and “We must not set aside the lessons of the wandering Ki-Rin.”

These are not personal opinions casually discussed in the geisha house. Kamoko is openly arguing a major government policy in the Unicorn court. Shono, too, is protesting the governing policy of the Champion of the Unicorn Clan. These are very clearly political positions. And these positions are being advanced by important political figures: a major military commander and the “crown prince” of the Unicorn “state.” This isn’t a conspiracy, it’s politics. Moreover, we know it has been an ongoing debate in the Unicorn court and that Altansarnai has heretofore resisted the arguments presented by Kamoko but she is obviously also completely sympathetic. Her weak counteragruments to Kamoko’s impassioned outbursts are a half-hearted restatement of someone else’s argument (most likely whoever negotiated the treaty).

I believe it is plausible that important Ide negotiators could have “overlooked” the Ikoma marriage custom to hasten a change in leadership more favorable to those Unicorn who want to fit into Rokugan society. I readily admit that is speculation, but it is a better explanation than for the entire Ide family to inexplicably outright fail to learn and appreciate the basic supporting facts of the treaty they spent three years negotiating. It’s no surprise to me that anyone, shall we say, sufficiently naive to call the Imperial Chancellor a fool is also naive enough to presume an entire family of diplomats is basically unfit to perform their special task.

Ikoma Ujiaki’s attitude toward Akodo Toturi is a clear example that even a Clan Champion is not immune from political opposition. Doji Satsume is another example, considering he managed to retain his title of Clan Champion, against opposition within the Crane, while serving as Emerald Champion.

Edited by Manchu

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1 hour ago, Manchu said:

Shono’s decision only outwardly shows unity. Within the ruling house of the Unicorn, there is now a serious divide. If Shono did not go to face Mitsuko, the Lion’s contempt of him and of the Shinjo family and, by extension, of the Unicorn Clan would be entirely confirmed. And I daresay Mitsuko herself would think much less of him — and rightfully so! Shono is demonstrating through acts what honor and duty actually demand of a samurai precisely because he is not confident that his Champion understands. And he is anxious that the Lion, and one might guess especially Mitsuko, and the rest of tye Empire, see that he understands.

Altansarnai speaks of “invisible battles” but Shono lives in the real world where battles are very much visible and their consequences are terrible. Not going himself would not have spared Mitsuko’s life, unless she managed to kill Altansarnai (hardly a happy outocme for her son); but it would certainly have broken her heart to discover her lover was a coward. If Altansarnai cannot understand this harsh reality in Rokugan, and somehow thinks it is even possible for Shono not to go, it is because she truly is a gaijin. What else can you call someone so entirely oblivious to the culture of the Empire.

She has no fear of Imperial censure, either, thanks to reliable connections with the Miya so “submitting to the Emperor’s judgment” is as much an empty formality as any other political grandstanding. The Unicorn have no special claim to sincerity.

As to the intra-Unicorn politics:

Shono himself describes what I would call the “conventionalist” position: “If the Lion had accepted us, the other clans would have no excuse but to do otherwise!” He then quotes his own mother’s teachings in the past, to put the good of the clan over one’s own good, which is just standard Rokugan samurai values. This is a stark contrast to Altansarnai’s current philosophy, “we should pursue what we want.” Note well, that strange, selfish philosophy of Altansarnai isn’t the “gaijinist” position, either. Kamoko sums up that platform: “In Rokugan  they cling to outdated customs ...” and “We must not set aside the lessons of the wandering Ki-Rin.”

These are not personal opinions offered privately between peers. Kamoko is openly arguing a major government policy in the Unicorn court. Shono, too, is protesting the governing policy of the Champion of the Unicorn Clan. These are very clearly political positions. And these positions are being advanced by important political figures: a major military commander and the “crown prince” of the Unicorn “state.” This isn’t a conspiracy, it’s politics. Moreover, we know it has been an ongoing debate in the Unicorn court and that Altansarnai has heretofore resisted the arguments presented by Kamoko but she is obviously also completely sympathetic. Her weak counteragruments to Kamoko’s impassioned outbursts are a half-hearted restatement of someone else’s argument (most likely whoever negotiated the treaty).

I believe it is plausible that important Ide negotiators could have “overlooked” the Ikoma marriage custom to hasten a change in leadership more favorable to those Unicorn who want to fit into Rokugan society. I readily admit that is speculation, but it is a better explanation than for the entire Ide family to inexplicably outright fail to learn and appreciate the basic supporting facts of the treaty they spent three years negotiating. It’s no surprise to me that anyone, shall we say, sufficiently naive to call the Imperial Chancellor a fool is also naive enough to presume an entire family of diplomats is basically unfit to perform their special task.

Ikoma Ujiaki’s attitude toward Akodo Toturi is a clear example that even a Clan Champion is not immune from political opposition. Doji Satsume is another example, considering he managed to retain his title of Clan Champion, against opposition within the Crane, while serving as Emerald Champion.

How does anything in test support this point.  The Lion did not challenge Shono specifically they invaded a Unicorn holding in retaliation for Altransarnai breaking the wedding agreement.  In that case the expected response should be a military retaliation by the Unicorn, which all falls in line with the apparent plan to further highlight themselves as the wronged party to justify their push to declare open war (as evidenced by Mitsuko's orders to force a full on confrontation with the retaliatory Unicorn army rather then permitting a one on one duel as the Lion did when they first took the village).  Nothing in Shono's exchange with his mother when he volunteers to lead the force that goes out to retake the village suggests that he questions his mothers ability to handle this Lion raid.  He is marching out to demonstrate the fact that he supports his mother and will defend the territory of the Unicorn on behalf of his mother as support of her decision to end the engagement.  He says it himself:

”Wait,” Shono spoke. "This is a test. Such an attack is beneath your notice, mother. Send me instead.”

Once more, the retainers exchanged murmurs. Altansarnai regarded her son. ”Shono," she began.

He stepped forward, meeting her eyes with a determined face. "They sent Mitsuko because they believed it would divide us. They think they can leverage my personal feelings against the clan. Let me show them that such tactics do not work.” He looked to the others. ”Let me prove to all that your future champion cannot be so easily manipulated!"

He says it himself the entire reason he is volunteering is to demonstrate that he stands with his champion and not against her.  His personal misgivings are irrelevant as this is a matter of honor for the clan.  There is no argument that he is at times more inclined to present the view that conforming to the expectations of the other clans may make assimilation easier and earn them greater acceptance, but how much of that is colored by his personal feelings and love for Mitsuko, does he resent having to face her on the field of battle for sure.  But he is doing his duty and supporting his mother.

And yes Altransarnai is far more aware than her son of the greater battlefield that is Rokugan politics, she's seen the fact that the Unicorn efforts to curtail the conflict for Toshi Ranbo have been invalidated by the subtle maneuvering of the Scorpion in convincing the Emperor to  declaring a moratorium on IMperial Decrees until the resolution of the Emerald Championship and the appointment of a new Emerald Champion.   The entire reason why she was intending to follow through on the marriage in the first place was that she recognized that backing out after the agreement in principle was reached would have been fuel in the courts for the Lion and the other enemies of the Unicorn to use against them.  

Altandarnai's core philosophy as presented in Curved Blades is that the Unicorn do not abandon their old ways and just merge with each new culture they encounter they take the useful traits that they find there and adapt them to fit the needs of clan as a whole, they don't abandon things they adapt them and merge them with their already held ideals.  It is not the Unicorn way to blindly throw anything away for what is new and shiny (in this case Bushido) and that too abandon the traditions that have served them well during the time they were outside of the Empire would be a betrayal of the Clan.  To a Rokugani perspective where "courtesy", "honor"and acceptance of facts as presented to you are the expectation it would seem quite scandalous and far fetched, but again that's the point, the Unicorn are the Outsider view that bucks the expectation of society.

And you are completely ignoring my challenge Ujiaki is an example of a conspiracy acting "openly" to undermine the position of his champion and shuffle him off to the side so that the "big kids" can get on with running the clan the way it should be done.  There is nothing being presented to suggest that their is anything of the sort goign on in the Unicorn.  Literally everything we've seen is the clan rallying around their Champion and their traditions, and the only real voice of disagreement is Shono who is upset at the "loss" of his love and whose main point is that they need to forge closer ties with their neighbors and that given the prevailing political climate it is a bad idea to give them further "proof" of the Unicorn's barbarism.

Edited by Schmoozies

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12 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

NGL, I'm sitting here wondering if it would violate my contract with FFG to promise to write you each a non-canonical L5R fanfic as bribery to let this one go.

Ha my master plan finally comes to fruition 

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I love the idea of a conspiracy against Altansarnai, but I don't think FFG will follow this path.

For now, in the story that I read, I see both of Unicorn and Lion are to blame for this war... and for my personal home rules: no splash with clan in war (so I can't splash Lion with my Unicorn).

Oh, I lost the part where Altansarnai shows her willing to accept the Emperor order after breaking the accord with the Lion: where I can find it? Which novella?

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At the end of Curved Blades, Altansarnai commands Kamoko to ride straight to Otosan Uichi to inform the Imperial Court. She says: “Only if the Emperor himself demands it will I change my mind. Let him command me—or let me remain as I am, in his service alone.” Obviously, the news reaches the capital far less dramatically. In Flying Chariot, Standing, Kamoko accompanies Ide Tadaji (the Ide daimyo and the Unicorn’s chief emissary to the Imperial Court) to the Miya Palace to take the temperature, as it were, of the potential Imperial response. The Imperial Herald implies that the the Emperor would be content to allow the two Great Clans to wear each other down so neither will become too powerful, which is code for the Miya doing what they always do, facilitating trouble between the Great Clans. In Family Duty, Shinjo Haruko is worried she will not be accepted into the Imperial Guard if the Emperor formally censures the Unicorn and her mother, Altansarnai, implies that the Miya will obstruct any censure.

I’m afraid Altansarnai’s brash words have been mischaracterized in this thread as if they were spoken in humility rather than defiance.

Edited by Manchu

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7 hours ago, Manchu said:

Within the ruling house of the Unicorn, there is now a serious divide

In fairness on that one - I think a lot of them have some serious strife either bubbling away or quite open in their inner circles.

  • Shoju/Yojiro vs Kachiko/Aramoro about the scorpion's role in the empire
  • Hotaru vs Kunawan about satsume's murder
  • Toturi vs Tsuko/Ujiaki about pretty much everything
  • Yoritomo vs Storm Fleet captains (RPG shows mantis pirates attacking Crab ships in full knowledge of Yoritomo's orders not to because "eh...screw it")
  • Isawa Tadaka's obsession with the darker bits of lore

 

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A shadowy conspiracy against the rightful Unicorn Champion, seeking to unseat the heir of Shinjo in favor of a more... pliable leader?

That sounds like something I have heard before... something something faux lait something?

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14 hours ago, Manchu said:

Altansarnai speaks of “invisible battles” but Shono lives in the real world where battles are very much visible and their consequences are terrible.

Altansarnai's point here is that you can't win a game where you let others write the rules. It is okay to say "NO" to others' BS even if it hurts their feelings. 

If your marriage turns out to be a way to make a fool out of you, then you call it off. If your waifu has a death wish, then you shoot an arrow into her knee and rewarm those wife abduction traditions. And the best thing? Nobody can really call you out on this. 

This is kinda like what not!Daigotsu was saying to Shahai in The Heart of the Garden fic, interestingly enough. 

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18 hours ago, Manchu said:

Oh come on, where would L5R be without passionate debates about the background?

Lord forbid the stories ever become unworthy of it. I suppose there might only be non-canonical fanfics in that case.

Yeah . . . but after you've beaten the dead horse until the flesh falls off, then beaten the bones into powder, then beaten the powder into the ground until it forms a hard-packed surface for your continued drum practice . . . it starts to feel like nothing we've written in the last year or more has been as interesting or important as that time Altansarnai backed out of her betrothal. 😛

Surely there are other things to debate?

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Ha, well that’s a bit unkind. Haven’t you noticed the wide margin by which this subforum’s post count exceeds all the others? I’d say we fans have been extensively intrigued by the fiction and, about 95% of the time, extremely complimentary about how it’s been written.

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5 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Surely there are other things to debate?

Not a whole lot, in my opinion. You guys are writing some of the tightest stories I've ever seen, good job there :)!

At this point, I can say with great confidence that Altansarnai is the only character whose actions have enough ambiguity to warrant debate.  Everyone else comes out as straight as an arrow with very clearly made points both in the story and on the meta level (not!Daigotsu being the prime example here). 

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On 11/29/2018 at 11:16 AM, sndwurks said:

I actually wrote one of these. It's still a pretty long read, at 3200 words? But that's a LOT less than 180,000 words.

http://www.cardboardrepublic.com/articles/dave-of-the-five-rings/dotr-chapter-thirty-two

i LOVED that recap, thx for doing it. hope to see more every few months. i think its pretty crucial to get new players into the setting (for the card game, but also for the rpg)

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12 hours ago, Manchu said:

Ha, well that’s a bit unkind. Haven’t you noticed the wide margin by which this subforum’s post count exceeds all the others? I’d say we fans have been extensively intrigued by the fiction and, about 95% of the time, extremely complimentary about how it’s been written.

Oh, I'm not saying you all haven't been complimentary -- and furthermore you don't have to be; not everything will necessarily go over well, and I've said before that the fact that some of the writers are here on the forum shouldn't stifle discussion when you guys dislike something or disagree with it. Just that watching the discussion go round and round and roundandroundandround makes me wish that some other aspect of the story would generate even a tenth as much furor as this one seems to have done -- just for some fresher bubble gum to chew, if nothing else.

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3 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Oh, I'm not saying you all haven't been complimentary -- and furthermore you don't have to be; not everything will necessarily go over well, and I've said before that the fact that some of the writers are here on the forum shouldn't stifle discussion when you guys dislike something or disagree with it. Just that watching the discussion go round and round and roundandroundandround makes me wish that some other aspect of the story would generate even a tenth as much furor as this one seems to have done -- just for some fresher bubble gum to chew, if nothing else.

That is forums for you. It's been lile that since ancient greek time!

At least you are not a mechanical rule designer, because you would have to stay in hiding :D

 

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