# Multiple Elusive Creatures

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You have multiple dogs. A rule that all members of your extended animal/human family must follow is...

"The first time each day that a brown dog smells meat, it must bark."

Of the five dogs in your family, three of them are brown. When you all have steak for breakfast, how many barks do you expect to hear?

Edited by RobertK

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5 minutes ago, RobertK said:

You have multiple dogs. A rule that all members of your extended animal/human family must follow is...

"The first time each day that a brown dog smells meat, it must bark."

Of the five dogs in your family, three of them are brown. When you all have steak for breakfast, how many barks do you expect to hear?

Five, because those other two just mimic the first three

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6 minutes ago, RobertK said:

You have multiple dogs. A rule that all members of your extended animal/human family must follow is...

"The first time each day that a brown dog smells meat, it must bark."

Of the five dogs in your family, three of them are brown. When you all have steak for breakfast, how many barks do you expect to hear?

Assuming my dogs are intelligent enough to (1) understand and (2) obey such a rule, one. Because the rest of the dogs would know that once one of them barks, the rest are off the hook. "Oh thank goodness, Bruno did the requisite meat-barking today. I wasn't really in the mood."

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Just now, twinstarbmc said:

Assuming my dogs are intelligent enough to (1) understand and (2) obey such a rule, one. Because the rest of the dogs would know that once one of them barks, the rest are off the hook. "Oh thank goodness, Bruno did the requisite meat-barking today. I wasn't really in the mood."

You're hopeless man!

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@twinstarbmc As is shown in this section of the rules the wording on the card supersedes what is written in the rules. Meaning that your argument about the reminder test on cards is not actually accurate.

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On 11/28/2018 at 1:58 AM, morialord said:

@twinstarbmc As is shown in this section of the rules the wording on the card supersedes what is written in the rules. Meaning that your argument about the reminder test on cards is not actually accurate.

This is an interesting observation. My first reaction was: don’t be ridiculous, reminder text is never considered rules text. Then it got me thinking; we know it is ruled that way in other ffg card games, but is it in Keyforge? Where in the Rulebook is reminder text excluded from falling under the golden rule?

(It should be, but is it?)

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3 hours ago, Palpster said:

This is an interesting observation. My first reaction was: don’t be ridiculous, reminder text is never considered rules text. Then it got me thinking; we know it is ruled that way in other ffg card games, but is it in Keyforge? Where in the Rulebook is reminder text excluded from falling under the golden rule?

(It should be, but is it?)

The exact same thing happened in Destiny. They had to add a reminder text clause to the BRB. What’s truly puzzling is how they manage to forget some basic principles of game design from one game to the next.

All rather moot at this point; @twinstarbmc has left the building.

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40 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

The exact same thing happened in Destiny. They had to add a reminder text clause to the BRB. What’s truly puzzling is how they manage to forget some basic principles of game design from one game to the next.

All rather moot at this point; @twinstarbmc has left the building.

Different people developing different products?

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It's FFG. It's basic card game design

1 hour ago, 10Ten said:

Same company developing similar products?

FTFY

It's FFG; it's basic card game design. There really isn't much excuse for them to continue making the same mistakes, game after game. No reflection on you, clearly, but after a while it becomes glaringly obvious.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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3 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

All rather moot at this point; @twinstarbmc has left the building.

Don't think you can get rid of me that easily. Like I said, once I get an official response, I'll post it here. In the meantime, I'm tired of arguing.

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24 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Don't think you can get rid of me that easily. Like I said, once I get an official response, I'll post it here. In the meantime, I'm tired of arguing.

Then don't argue?  Rather, debate.  I'm interested in seeing your response to the concept I ran through, in that the second creature with elusive getting attacked during a turn can also satisfy the trigger condition if it's the first time that creature is being attacked.

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1 minute ago, kingbobb said:

Then don't argue?  Rather, debate.  I'm interested in seeing your response to the concept I ran through, in that the second creature with elusive getting attacked during a turn can also satisfy the trigger condition if it's the first time that creature is being attacked.

I've addressed this several times already. Yes, it is the first time that creature is being attacked. But it is then the second time a creature with Elusive - as the rule is worded in the rulebook - is being attacked that turn.

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29 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Don't think you can get rid of me that easily. Like I said, once I get an official response, I'll post it here. In the meantime, I'm tired of arguing.

You mistake my intent, sir; I have no vested interest in chasing you away. If all I wanted was an echo chamber I'd go create a Facebook account.

There is, however, this gem. ❤️

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32 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

I've addressed this several times already. Yes, it is the first time that creature is being attacked. But it is then the second time a creature with Elusive - as the rule is worded in the rulebook - is being attacked that turn.

But it is also the first time that a creature with elusive is being attacked.  And that's the only condition that is going to trigger anything.  If you then attacked a third creature with elusive, the condition "The first time a creature with elusive is attacked each turn" is going to be satisfied.

Your approach breaks my basic rule for card games:  do what the card says, do not do what the card does not say.  You are ignoring what the card (or in this case, rule for Elusive) says to do.

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This whole thread reminds me of this

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:58 PM, twinstarbmc said:

Once I get a response from my official rules submission, I will post it for all to see. Until then, I maintain that an ambiguity exists, and a legitimate argument can be made for both interpretations of the rule. That's all I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to say "my" way is the correct one. I want to be wrong. But I cannot ignore the fact that it could be read both ways, and should be clarified.

That pic should have been the end of this discussion.

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I really think @twinstarbmc has gotten way to much criticism here. It should def. be changed to "each" in the rules in my opinion, and we should not rely on reminder text that is not even on every card.

Even if I am comfortable with the way it is supposed to work (and so seems twinstarbmc) if there is a possibility that someone reads it as twinstar suggests, it could really be a bad and awkward experience if it is revealed at the end of a tense game that two players read it differently, and played towards their interpretation.

That alone warrants a revision to "each" in the rules. The reminder can still say "this", as it is just reminder text and its logical that it is changed to fit the card it is printed on. After all, it's just a reminder, right?

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