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Dash Is Back

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25 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Depends on what folks mean by it.

"Dash is back as a meta-staple, and you should expect to see him do well in all the tournaments."

drake-hotline-bling-jacket-moncler.png

"I'm a big Dash fan from back in the day; can I fly my dude again?"

drake.jpg

I was just trying to speak to the fact that Dash hasn't been seen around in a while and some people still carry unreasonable hatred/dread from the 1st edition days, not trying to provide any serious commentary. That being said, he seems to be worth a look given that he's only gone down so far.

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12 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:

Yes, the pilot being Bartosz is the key ingredient here. I do think Dash is a A-tier ship now, but he is still lacking a suitable wing man. I think if Corran drops another 3 points he wil be in a place where he can provide enough support.

If it’s only a matter of 3 points... I’m pretty sure I can give it a try:

How Dash this look?

(85) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(10) Bistan
(4) Trick Shot
(14) Outrider
Points: 121

(64) Corran Horn [E-wing]
(10) R2-D2
(2) Fire-Control System
(2) Crack Shot
Points: 78

Total points: 199

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3 hours ago, RoockieBoy said:

If it’s only a matter of 3 points... I’m pretty sure I can give it a try:

How Dash this look?

(85) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(10) Bistan
(4) Trick Shot
(14) Outrider
Points: 121

(64) Corran Horn [E-wing]
(10) R2-D2
(2) Fire-Control System
(2) Crack Shot
Points: 78

Total points: 199

Only change would be maybe taking R3 over Crack Shot? Depends on how much you want to lean into Corran's super-turn and if you want the small bid.

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8 hours ago, Npmartian said:

Only change would be maybe taking R3 over Crack Shot? Depends on how much you want to lean into Corran's super-turn and if you want the small bid.

R3 Astromech means no R2-D2.  In this particular list, I think I'd value regen higher.

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Hopping on the nay-say train, saying "The world champ can beat it" is like saying that Usain Bolt who can run 27.8 mph can outrun the average bear speed of 25 mph. Cool for him, but average humans are boned, and even decent sprinters are up for a challenge.

And I'll second the odd approach from the Nantex. And then targeting priority then after. Letting Wedge pick at you when you could eliminate him in a turn and instead of chasing the more maneuverable Dash seems the wrong choice. Once you kill Wedge, Dash now has to chase you, because you are up on points.

Good for Dash, though. I'm glad he is usable. I'm also glad he can be used without being an NPE like he was in Dash/Roark. Big bases in general feel like they are finally truly making their way into the game without dirty tricks.

Edited by 5050Saint

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9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Sooooo...define dirty?  lol

Double tapping before anyone else shoots comes to mind. Infinite regen with the potential for infinite hard white stops, as well.

I know you're thinking about Rey, but most of her tricks have been around since wave 2 and were clearly intended for her to use, and the Korr trick has been around since wave 4. No one has called her dirty for those tricks yet. At this point if no one has been crying foul, they're talking about points, not her tricks.

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On 9/8/2020 at 12:13 PM, RoockieBoy said:

If it’s only a matter of 3 points... I’m pretty sure I can give it a try:

How Dash this look?

(85) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(10) Bistan
(4) Trick Shot
(14) Outrider
Points: 121

(64) Corran Horn [E-wing]
(10) R2-D2
(2) Fire-Control System
(2) Crack Shot
Points: 78

Total points: 199

Finally trying this list in a few hours... I ‘ll try and make a batrep if I remember to take pics 

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We have seen miracle Rebel lists smash through a tournament to the shock of all before, including Nora-Luke-Wedge, the "Boom" VCX, or one of the many many MANY lists claiming to be beef 2.0.

Then it gets tinkered with and it just doesn't actually have staying power. Having one good tournament, even a big one, isn't luck (you obviously gotta play well), but it isn't necessarily a sign a piece has the consistency to really work. Part of what makes a good list good is that a good player gets more consistent results from it than another list, and often Rebels have a high variance problem that makes their '5 minutes of fame' lists not end up working out.

That said, the average player probably cares more about 'not getting so thrashed at my weekly scene tournament that I lose every match by a MOV of 100+' than 'tournament stable results. Dash before the points change definitely was asking to lose the game hard. After, not as much. We will see how Dash is going forward now that people are going to try them again. We often learn a lot about ships and lists once they have a breakout preformance and what they are missing to get that consistency. 

Edited by dezzmont

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16 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The question is, was Corran a good wingman?

I‘d say Corran passed the test... I didn’t play my best games with him but he was an excellent bait, and I’ll use him again as Dash’s wingman. I got lucky and survived many turns of droid firing in game 1, spending all my regen charges in the process, while Dash erased 1-2 droids per turn when my reds started to get hot. 2nd game he did less running and a lot more damage as the enemy focused hard on Dash, and regen’d just above half points on the last turn. Last game he died early, but was able to kill Kylo in the process, leaving Dash an easier endgame

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12 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Still feel like he's a bit too expensive to see major use, and for the points investment the selection of YT-1300s at the rebels disposal is just so much... better. And for a far cheaper cost. 

Probably true, but I tried it, and loved those 5 dice shots with -1 agility on the enemy... and doing it twice a turn? That’s nuts!

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8 hours ago, dezzmont said:

We have seen miracle Rebel lists smash through a tournament to the shock of all before, including Nora-Luke-Wedge, the "Boom" VCX, or one of the many many MANY lists claiming to be beef 2.0.

Then it gets tinkered with and it just doesn't actually have staying power. Having one good tournament, even a big one, isn't luck (you obviously gotta play well), but it isn't necessarily a sign a piece has the consistency to really work. Part of what makes a good list good is that a good player gets more consistent results from it than another list, and often Rebels have a high variance problem that makes their '5 minutes of fame' lists not end up working out.

That said, the average player probably cares more about 'not getting so thrashed at my weekly scene tournament that I lose every match by a MOV of 100+' than 'tournament stable results. Dash before the points change definitely was asking to lose the game hard. After, not as much. We will see how Dash is going forward now that people are going to try them again. We often learn a lot about ships and lists once they have a breakout preformance and what they are missing to get that consistency. 

Agree. My experience with Dash is Zero games in 1.0, and just this small tournament yesterday, so I’d take this result with a grain of salt, but I’m pretty sure more Dashes will start to show up thanks to Bartosz and Oli.

only time will tell...

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On 9/18/2020 at 7:29 AM, RoockieBoy said:

Finally trying this list in a few hours... I ‘ll try and make a batrep if I remember to take pics 

I feel like outrider is so expensive. Am I missing something. Wouldn't those points be better spent on corran for a pro torp?

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@TBot


Outrider allows Dash to K-turn freely over obstacles and thus maintain a pretty absurdly maneuverable flight pattern if you set up obstacles right, and 4 dice are significantly better than 3, especially if you can consistently mod them. If your already investing a ton into a piece the proportional cost of Outrider isn't too bad. You can sort of imagine the cost of any upgrade in the game getting a percentage multiplier in price to performance ratio depending on how tough the chasis that uses the upgrade is, and how many turns it will get to exploit it, and while Dash has a lot of problems, taking a lot of turns to die isn't one.

Put another way: The proportional cost of Outrider on naked Dash is 3/4th the proportional cost of putting a proton torp on naked Corran, despite the nominal performance gain when purely evaluating red dice being the same. But Dash takes way more effort to kill than Corran, so those points 'go further.' This is why people will take X-wings over Y-wings as torp carriers sometimes: The X-wing's superior turning and conditionally longer TTK means those points are 'safer' on the X-wing as it can avoid dying to a killbox easier.

The main issue, of course, is when the price gets high enough that, regardless of being a good deal in terms of how much your improving a 90 point investment to 'multiply' the output of those points, you can't get the things to support those points. I have flown Dash a bit and found that he really wants 2 wingmen to work, ideally one of them with a strong power. Dash-Wedge was the main time I could get him to work, and mostly when I got my opponent to focus Dash. So if Outrider prevents you from affording something strong to go with him THEN it is a problem.

Edited by dezzmont

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In all honesty, having flown Dash quite a bit in 2.0, SpamTex is more or less Dash's favorite type of list to face, other than the bullseyes.

He loves a lot of small-health ships so he can start reducing incoming damage from early on. If he gets someone else to flank, block, or distract, he buys himself time to take out several opposing ships before they close to R1, at which point he inevitably dies. If he takes out enough he can forestall the inevitable long enough that it may never even happen.

Counterplaying Dash is unfortunately very straightforward and he's not well-equipped to shore up his R1 weak spot, but the Nantex's rather poor maneuverability means closing isn't that easy for them unless they guess super well.

All that to say, supposing Dash is a good counter to the spamtex boogeyman, that doesn't really mean he's a problem, since this is historically the kind of matchup he prefers. It only means he may finally have found a place. We'll let the NPE police weigh in on the experience once people have actually played with and against him in normal games.

If Dash finally gets some normal use, this would be the first time in 2.0. Roark/Han Dash is not representative of the chassis as that combo was at least as broken as Handbrake Han and was rightfully nerfed.

Would I prefer to see a YT-2400 that isn't an I5 that runs over obstacles? Sure. But is Dash likely to be a major problem in the near future? I really don't think so. If people have a problem with the player experience and/or lack of counterplay, I really want to see a detailed breakdown of what the issues are, because I haven't yet (when I ask I usually get tired answers based on 1.0 and Roark/Han that don't reflect how Dash actually feels on the table in current games).

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Would I prefer to see a YT-2400 that isn't an I5 that runs over obstacles? Sure. But is Dash likely to be a major problem in the near future? I really don't think so. If people have a problem with the player experience and/or lack of counterplay, I really want to see a detailed breakdown of what the issues are, because I haven't yet (when I ask I usually get tired answers based on 1.0 and Roark/Han that don't reflect how Dash actually feels on the table in current games).

Hrm.

The thing in my thoughts right now: the counterplay to Dash is kinda high-agility, high-mobility ships which can donut-hole him.

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And if he's fishing for Nantex, what's the bycatch of those air-shrimp?  Well, probably a lot of the miscellaneous generics and mid-init pilots that folks already can't play because of Nantex.  That is, so I think. I could be wrong, Dash hasn't been around much, so we probably don't have too great an idea on what he preys upon.

Not saying that Dash is a problem, but if folks wind up having an issue with him, it'd probably be because of that.

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