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8 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Is there a reason I can't put Tactical Officer on The Moldy Crow in the official App?

Needs the Squad Leader talent to gain the required red Coordinate to be able to equip Tac officer. Just a note, Roark + Squadron Leader & Tac Officer can only coordinate actions that reside on both his own action bar and the target's action bar.

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3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Needs the Squad Leader talent to gain the required red Coordinate to be able to equip Tac officer. Just a note, Roark + Squadron Leader & Tac Officer can only coordinate actions that reside on both his own action bar and the target's action bar.

It only rules out Barrel roll! 

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1 minute ago, Dreadai said:

It only rules out Barrel roll! 

Yep. I wasn't questioning the usefulness. I only mentioned the restrictions because it is something to keep in mind when doing the Squad Leader + Tactical Officer combo in general. :) 

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2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Aside from the player fielding this deciding which order abilities their ships have that trigger at the same time resolve, Han is a bonus attack done at init 7. Bonus attacks take place during the aftermath step of the ship's engagement. Roark boosts their target to engaging at I7. So Roark boosted Dash/Leebo/whoever would shoot first then Han's effect would be resolved in the aftermath step of that attack. :)

That's when a bonus attack triggered by an "after attacking" ability would happen.  Han is not an effect like this.  The Aftermath parts to how a ship engages wouldn't be relevant here.

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2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

If it's a loophole in the rules, it looks like one that will be patched up with an FAQ soon...


Yea, except the most recent FAQ explicitly allows this interaction under a question about Roarke + Han (Gunner).

Clearly intentional and clearly allowed and encouraged by FFG.  I think it just goes to show how bad off Big Turrets are, though, in that they need this sort of double-tap to have any chance at all of being competitive (and despite this combo being known for months it's still yet to win any events and this is the first time it's ever even made a cut).

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12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's when a bonus attack triggered by an "after attacking" ability would happen.  Han is not an effect like this.  The Aftermath parts to how a ship engages wouldn't be relevant here.

:) Um...

FAQ in Rules Reference:

Q: Is Han Solo [Rebel, 󲈦]’s additional attack a bonus attack?
A: Yes. Anything that permits an attack outside of the standard attack
allowed to a ship when it engages is a bonus attack.

Bonus Attack section from Rules Reference:

Bonus Attack

If a card instructs a ship to perform a bonus attack, it performs an additional attack during the Aftermath step.

  • A few special weapons provide a bonus attack using the same weapon. While performing this type of bonus attack, the same arc requirements, range requirements, and cost requirements are followed unless stated otherwise.
    • For example, a ship that attacked with the Cluster Missiles card can perform a bonus attack against another ship at range 1 of the defender and ignore the requirement. The range (2-3), arc ( ), and cost (spending 1 charge) are maintained for the bonus attack.
  • A ship can perform only one bonus attack per round.
  • If both players have a bonus attack that triggers after an attack, the defending player resolves their bonus attack first.

 

So Aftermath Step of the I7 attack...

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

:) Um...

FAQ in Rules Reference:

Q: Is Han Solo [Rebel, 󲈦]’s additional attack a bonus attack?
A: Yes. Anything that permits an attack outside of the standard attack
allowed to a ship when it engages is a bonus attack.

Bonus Attack section from Rules Reference:

Bonus Attack

If a card instructs a ship to perform a bonus attack, it performs an additional attack during the Aftermath step.

  • A few special weapons provide a bonus attack using the same weapon. While performing this type of bonus attack, the same arc requirements, range requirements, and cost requirements are followed unless stated otherwise.
    • For example, a ship that attacked with the Cluster Missiles card can perform a bonus attack against another ship at range 1 of the defender and ignore the requirement. The range (2-3), arc ( ), and cost (spending 1 charge) are maintained for the bonus attack.
  • A ship can perform only one bonus attack per round.
  • If both players have a bonus attack that triggers after an attack, the defending player resolves their bonus attack first.

 

So Aftermath Step of the I7 attack...

So, frakkin' wait. What's happening here? Because I'm not seeing any sort of double tapping action going on at all in these cards.

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Here's the text for the Aftermath step (Attack, p. 4-5):

  1. Aftermath: Abilities that trigger after an attack are resolved in the following order.

    1. Resolve any of the defending player’s abilities that trigger “after you defend,” excluding abilities that grant a bonus attack.

    2. Resolve any of the attacking player’s abilities that trigger “after you perform an attack,” excluding abilities that grant a bonus attack.

    3. Resolve any of the defending player’s abilities that trigger “after you defend” that grant a bonus attack.

    4. Resolve any of the attacking player’s abilities that trigger “after you perform an attack” that grant a bonus attack.

And Han doesn't fit in there, since it isn't an "after you perform an attack" trigger.  By contrast, Dengar can clearly be located at 4.c, since it's an after-defending ability which grants a bonus attack.  This is one of the awkward things about Han.  Because they had to rule-clarification him into being a Bonus Attack, the rules are awkward.

Meanwhile, restricting Han to the Aftermath step fundamentally breaks him, since then he could not trigger without Roark or Heightened Reflexes.  Han must be able to trigger his bonus attack outside of the aftermath of an Init 7 attack.  There's also an intent argument, given that Han was clearly designed to happen outside of when a ship normally engages.  This, too, must break the "aftermath" aspect common with most bonus attacks.

It's worth noting that there is at least other one ship which can perform a bonus attack outside of the Aftermath step: Deathfire.  While Deathfire is usually going to be destroyed by an attack (there is a case for it to happen either in the Aftermath step at 4.c, like 1e Quickdraw and how they attack after losing shields, or alternately at the end of the initiative step), Deathfire can be destroyed in the Activation Phase, by flying over a rock, or from Device damage,* or probably in a few other times.  Deathfire dies to a Deadman Switch

 

 

 

*There's maybe a completely-unrelated rabbit hole here... if Deathfire is destroyed by a device at the end of activation, and he uses his ability to drop a Proton Bomb, when does it detonate?  I think it'd detonate immediately.

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12 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So, frakkin' wait. What's happening here? Because I'm not seeing any sort of double tapping action going on at all in these cards.

Roark boost the initiative of the ship carrying Han Gunner to I7 for the Engagement Phase. The boosted ship performs its normal attack out of the turret, then Han's effect is resolved allowing him to fire the turret, resulting in the turret being locked out after Han shoots. The disagreement between me an theBitterFig as to the specifics on this is really semantical in nature, since Roark's Init boost trigger and Han's extra attack trigger are the same so the player controlling the firing ship set the order the effects are resolved. Han's extra attack at I7 being a pure bonus attack as stated in the FAQ results in effectively the same exact thing, just Aftermath step at I7 instead of being an attack at I7.

 

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

*There's maybe a completely-unrelated rabbit hole here... if Deathfire is destroyed by a device at the end of activation, and he uses his ability to drop a Proton Bomb, when does it detonate?  I think it'd detonate immediately.

Makes sense to me. It is still the end of the Activation Phase for the sticklers out there since the phase doesn't transition until all effects that happen are resolved (unless the card or effect specifically states it resolves in a different phase).

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Roark boost the initiative of the ship carrying Han Gunner to I7 for the Engagement Phase. The boosted ship performs its normal attack out of the turret, then Han's effect is resolved allowing him to fire the turret, resulting in the turret being locked out after Han shoots. The disagreement between me an theBitterFig as to the specifics on this is really semantical in nature, since Roark's Init boost trigger and Han's extra attack trigger are the same so the player controlling the firing ship set the order the effects are resolved. Han's extra attack at I7 being a pure bonus attack as stated in the FAQ results in effectively the same exact thing, just Aftermath step at I7 instead of being an attack at I7.

 

Makes sense to me. It is still the end of the Activation Phase for the sticklers out there since the phase doesn't transition until all effects that happen are resolved (unless the card or effect specifically states it resolves in a different phase).

The way I'm reading it, it doesn't at all look like Han gets to shoot after Dash. What logic led the the conclusion that he can?

I gotta' learn these gymnastics to find my own awful tricks.

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13 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Meanwhile, restricting Han to the Aftermath step fundamentally breaks him, since then he could not trigger without Roark or Heightened Reflexes.  Han must be able to trigger his bonus attack outside of the aftermath of an Init 7 attack.  There's also an intent argument, given that Han was clearly designed to happen outside of when a ship normally engages.  This, too, must break the "aftermath" aspect common with most bonus attacks.

Um.. Why? Aftermath is merely the name of that sequence step in the attack. When a ship engages at I7 Han's ability happens during that step. If the ship engages later (IE at I5 or I6) Han's ability happens at I7 and the specific step of the attack in which it happens isn't worried about, he gets to shoot, though he locks out that turret arc for the normal Engagement Phase of the ship he's on. 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

The way I'm reading it, it doesn't at all look like Han gets to shoot after Dash. What logic led the the conclusion that he can?

I gotta' learn these gymnastics to find my own awful tricks.

Roark triggers "at the start of the Engagement Phase", Han Gunner trigger's "during the Engagement Phase". Roark allows a ship in arc to engage at I7, Han Gunner grants an I7 turret arc attack that has been FAQed as a bonus attack. From that point there are 2 reasons for it to work. (1) Roark and Han cause effects that take place the same timing allowing the player control the Han equipped Dash to first use the primary turret with Dash's normal attack followed by Han's additional attack (controlling player determines order of effect resolution when the effects happen at the same step per the rules on the ability que). (2) Han's attack happens in the I7 Aftermath Step of Dash's Attack since it is a bonus attack, so Dash's normal attack is done first followed by Han's if Roark's ability is used on Dash.

Han is not prevented from using a turret arc that has been used previously, he prevents that turret arc from being used after his effect has been resolved. :) 

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9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Roark triggers "at the start of the Engagement Phase", Han Gunner trigger's "during the Engagement Phase". Roark allows a ship in arc to engage at I7, Han Gunner grants an I7 turret arc attack that has been FAQed as a bonus attack. From that point there are 2 reasons for it to work. (1) Roark and Han cause effects that take place the same timing allowing the player control the Han equipped Dash to first use the primary turret with Dash's normal attack followed by Han's additional attack (controlling player determines order of effect resolution when the effects happen at the same step per the rules on the ability que). (2) Han's attack happens in the I7 Aftermath Step of Dash's Attack since it is a bonus attack, so Dash's normal attack is done first followed by Han's if Roark's ability is used on Dash.

Han is not prevented from using a turret arc that has been used previously, he prevents that turret arc from being used after his effect has been resolved. :) 

God that is absolutely unintuitive. Still, pretty nuts that as a result, Dash can shoot twice per round thanks to Roark, before anybody else does. Yeah, that's powerful alright.

Thing is, I question whether or not it's viable to build a whole list around. Yeah, it's great if your foe rolls all blanks and you roll all hits, but past that, I dunno'.

I guess having two focus tokens allows for some serious dice mod shenanigans then doesn't it? Here's my question. At range 0-1, Dash rolls one less dice. Is that one less with the bonus normally included, or is that 3 straight up?

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7 hours ago, gennataos said:

And two-ship lists.

Just like Fig is the prophet of Double Defender Palp, I shall at least scream at the exception of the rules of A: turrets suck, and B: two-ship lists suck (despite the evidence provided by Matthew Carey at Gold Squad Classic or the likes of Francois Moret at Coruscant). Cloak n' choke collision + stealth Whisper and RAC with LW, hotshot, novice tech, Tua, and hull is relatively legit.  Decimators are oddly now action-efficient and take a while to whittle down. But if you lose Whisper, you also basically lose the game. And I wouldn't take it to a big tourney as it can bleed MOV when your opponent decides to stop chasing Whisper and score some points on the deci.

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Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

God that is absolutely unintuitive. Still, pretty nuts that as a result, Dash can shoot twice per round thanks to Roark, before anybody else does. Yeah, that's powerful alright.

Thing is, I question whether or not it's viable to build a whole list around. Yeah, it's great if your foe rolls all blanks and you roll all hits, but past that, I dunno'.

I guess having two focus tokens allows for some serious dice mod shenanigans then doesn't it? Here's my question. At range 0-1, Dash rolls one less dice. Is that one less with the bonus normally included, or is that 3 straight up?

It is expensive as **** to field points wise and can be burned down quick.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I guess having two focus tokens allows for some serious dice mod shenanigans then doesn't it? Here's my question. At range 0-1, Dash rolls one less dice. Is that one less with the bonus normally included, or is that 3 straight up?

3 straight up. "Sensor Blindspot: While you perform a primary attack at attack range 0-1, do not apply the range 0-1 bonus and roll 1 fewer attack die"

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1 hour ago, jokerkd said:

This is the most pointless of rabbit holes to be looking down tbh

Yeah.  There is agreement that Roark/Han works, and it's just some under-the-hood stuff which is up for debate. 

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Um.. Why? Aftermath is merely the name of that sequence step in the attack. When a ship engages at I7 Han's ability happens during that step. If the ship engages later (IE at I5 or I6) Han's ability happens at I7 and the specific step of the attack in which it happens isn't worried about, he gets to shoot, though he locks out that turret arc for the normal Engagement Phase of the ship he's on. 

Hrm.  I guess I can see that as an exaggeration.  There are effects that happen in one way under circumstance A, but another under circumstance B (Deathfire, for example).  I just don't think it's right in this case.  I think it's generally best to consider the Aftermath as restricted to "after attacking" and "after defending" triggers, and to view Han as happening either 1) after the Aftermath has concluded or 2) before you perform your attack from Roark.  I think both the Aftermath Step and Han are pretty clear about their triggers, and they don't match.

1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

Just like Fig is the prophet of Double Defender Palp, I shall at least scream at the exception of the rules of A: turrets suck, and B: two-ship lists suck (despite the evidence provided by Matthew Carey at Gold Squad Classic or the likes of Francois Moret at Coruscant). Cloak n' choke collision + stealth Whisper and RAC with LW, hotshot, novice tech, Tua, and hull is relatively legit.  Decimators are oddly now action-efficient and take a while to whittle down. But if you lose Whisper, you also basically lose the game. And I wouldn't take it to a big tourney as it can bleed MOV when your opponent decides to stop chasing Whisper and score some points on the deci.

  1. I don't know that Palp Defenders is Top-Tables-Large-Tournaments, but I think it's certainly a slept-on archetype. :D  I'd love to fly it against more nasty stuff like Redline and mixed Scum.
  2. That seems like a fun enough list.  Whatever works for you is great.
  3. Two-ship Brobots made it to the cut--top 17--at the Mynock Open.  A+B, with Ion/Tractor, plus TrajSim/Proton Bomb/Ablative, and Elusive and Feedback Array.  A lot of cool tools in there.  Bugzap squishy aces with FBA, chuck some bombs at them, second-attack potential, and you've got ships which probably have to K-Turn and S-Loop a decent amount for arc anyhow, so Elusive seems decent.  Ion/Tractor was the cannon combination which won worlds in 2018, too, although Ion is a bit nerfed.

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I tried Dash twice now and well.. he is pretty awful.

He just isn't the same ship as before.  In 1.0 you could dance around with boost/barrel roll combos. Now you only get the ONE action and to make things worse his barrel roll is RED and he doesn't get a boost! 

So he is now very sluggish and dies pretty quickly under concentrated fire.  

Before he lived by the dance and being out of arc at all times. This is now gone and even if you do get a good maneuver in, you need to spend your action to rotate your arc so byebye modification to shots.

 

Just too expensive... 

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