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Wes Janson

Armada 2.0

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1 minute ago, Cpt. Caine said:

 I've been wondering why no one else seem to have picked those news up in the Armada community.

Because NDAs are a thing?

The Most drastic thing I would ever really want for Armada is an App to adjust points and slots.  Everything else is unnecessary (Except for the few wording changes that bug some people [justifiably <how many brackets can I use? {4}>])

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Just now, Do I need a Username said:

Because NDAs are a thing?

(...)

?

The community didn't. So obviously we can all talk about it even if some community members might have signed one and been allowed information on the whole thing.

I haven't seen anyone talk about it on Reddit, nor here.

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1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

Because NDAs are a thing?

The Most drastic thing I would ever really want for Armada is an App to adjust points and slots.  Everything else is unnecessary (Except for the few wording changes that bug some people [justifiably <how many brackets can I use? {4}>])

Yeah, no.

An app with adjusting point costs is an auto-drop-the-game thing for me.  Sorry, FFG did that with X-Wing, already, and I and dozens of others (several I know in person, but also look at the FFG forums and eBay) dropped the game entirely as a result.  At least I kept my wave 1 stuff, but a lot of guys just dumped the entire game as a result.

I play tabletop games to get away from computers, it's a non-negotiable drop-the-game if that comes up.

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2 minutes ago, Cpt. Caine said:

?

The community didn't. So obviously we can all talk about it even if some community members might have signed one and been allowed information on the whole thing.

I haven't seen anyone talk about it on Reddit, nor here.

So any information we get regarding that is unreliable at best.

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The points on-line only was a both bad an good. I see the benefit. But then there are those who do not want to have to go on-line to build a force or check their lists. Its a toss up in benefit vs negative to me. I for one love that it can be changed in review from time to time.

Anyway, glad I could stir up some thoughts. Our local crew has dried up in the wake of no new or out of stock items. Can't get new players at the LGS if they can't get what they want.

There is a lot of fuss about activation order with the remaining Armada vets I can see as well. It does need a fix for the double tap activation. And I agree, the last ship activated can't be the first ship activated your next turn. I think this should only apply to the player with the most activation's on the table at the start of a round. So this negative can flip flop based on the table situation. IMO.

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24 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Yeah, no.

An app with adjusting point costs is an auto-drop-the-game thing for me.  Sorry, FFG did that with X-Wing, already, and I and dozens of others (several I know in person, but also look at the FFG forums and eBay) dropped the game entirely as a result.  At least I kept my wave 1 stuff, but a lot of guys just dumped the entire game as a result.

I play tabletop games to get away from computers, it's a non-negotiable drop-the-game if that comes up.

Most people already use a fleet builder anyways. Or do you just manually count up your lists?

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4 minutes ago, Wes Janson said:

The points on-line only was a both bad an good. I see the benefit. But then there are those who do not want to have to go on-line to build a force or check their lists. Its a toss up in benefit vs negative to me.

The people who 'liked' the things the app requirement allows for (point adjustments over time, upgrade slots added/removed from ships over time, specific ships being rotated in/out of allowed/prohibited in lists by tournament season) seem to only like that change as a way to solve the game's playtesting shortfalls.

The people who hated the app dropped the game entirely over it.

So by introducing an app you have one group that kinda likes it but could take it or leave it, and another group that leaves the game over it.

Why do that to Armada, which could hardly support the fracture in the player base, anyway?  I mean does anyone really think it would add players by having an app you have to check to see if your current favorite list is even still legal, that changes quarter to quarter?  Because, citation: X-Wing, you'll certainly lose players over it, no question.

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4 minutes ago, xanderf said:

The people who 'liked' the things the app requirement allows for (point adjustments over time, upgrade slots added/removed from ships over time, specific ships being rotated in/out of allowed/prohibited in lists by tournament season) seem to only like that change as a way to solve the game's playtesting shortfalls.

The people who hated the app dropped the game entirely over it.

So by introducing an app you have one group that kinda likes it but could take it or leave it, and another group that leaves the game over it.

Why do that to Armada, which could hardly support the fracture in the player base, anyway?  I mean does anyone really think it would add players by having an app you have to check to see if your current favorite list is even still legal, that changes quarter to quarter?  Because, citation: X-Wing, you'll certainly lose players over it, no question.

people quit X-wing before the app, then came back with it.  the number of people coming back out weighs the number who quit by a good margin.

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39 minutes ago, Cpt. Caine said:

Wave 8 has already been (unofficially) confirmed by the guys from The Outer Rim who're personal friends with FFG employees. As of last week it is in playtesting. I've been wondering why no one else seem to have picked those news up in the Armada community.

They also said 2.0 is not definitely not happening after the SSD og prior to wave 8. Without saying what would happen after that.

I disbelieve this statement based on the fact that The Outer Rim Job guys know less than Jon Snow.

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Just now, dominosfleet said:

are you Amish? I'm not sure why an app is the end game for you, I think it would improve the overall quality of the game a lot.

That's...  a little rude. :(

 

I do feel the same way.  I can't afford to have data on my phone, and thus, do things "online" when I'm out gaming.  Without Wifi, I might as well be amish...  Through no fault of my own, I am a luddite, and considering it cost me $85 to get replacement printer cartridges, even printing a master PDF is out of the issue...  Browsing on a Phone, its a solid compromise, but it has to be offline.

Besides, I have plenty of time while not playing to work lists by hand...  I have a lot of my core archtype points memorised by now anyway.

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Just now, Drasnighta said:

That's...  a little rude. :(

 

I do feel the same way.  I can't afford to have data on my phone, and thus, do things "online" when I'm out gaming.  Without Wifi, I might as well be amish...  Through no fault of my own, I am a luddite, and considering it cost me $85 to get replacement printer cartridges, even printing a master PDF is out of the issue...  Browsing on a Phone, its a solid compromise, but it has to be offline.

Besides, I have plenty of time while not playing to work lists by hand...  I have a lot of my core archtype points memorised by now anyway.

I just assumed it would always have an offline option. obviously you'd need to update every so often but ya, saying "no app ever" because you don't want to use a computer seems a bit extreme. /shrug, I'd also argue that A LOT of people quit x-wing 2.0 for A LOT of reasons beyond the "THEY'RE USING THE INTERNETS!" argument. I think the cost of those box sets was one of the craziest aspects, i was looking at nearly 300 to update my fights to the current system and that wasn't going to happen for a game that I hadn't played in nearly 2 years anyway (not like i was the target audience). 

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3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Do we have actual numbers beyond Anecdotes for this?

Only FFG knows the real numbers, but I'm one of the admin for the PDX area FB group.  Several of our local shops have reported drops in sales since 2nd edition came out, and a couple of stores stopped carrying the game entirely as a result of demand drying up.  Certainly some folks who gave up X-Wing before 2nd edition have come back to see if the game problems they disliked before were "fixed" - but as most of their complaints weren't addressed, I rather doubt they'll stay long-term.  Either way, the numbers of folks who have "come back" certainly don't approach the number leaving.  If anything, the Clone Wars being added is going to do the most to help the game stay relevant - IE., I doubt X-Wing going away or anything like that, but it certainly took a big hit with the 2nd edition release.

X-Wing, of course, was large enough it could afford to take that hit, and the new 7-faction meta may over time keep the game growing larger than it ever was before, eventually.

I just don't think Armada has the kind of market saturation to take the same kind of hit, though, and survive it.

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5 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Only FFG knows the real numbers, but I'm one of the admin for the PDX area FB group.  Several of our local shops have reported drops in sales since 2nd edition came out, and a couple of stores stopped carrying the game entirely as a result of demand drying up.  Certainly some folks who gave up X-Wing before 2nd edition have come back to see if the game problems they disliked before were "fixed" - but as most of their complaints weren't addressed, I rather doubt they'll stay long-term.  Either way, the numbers of folks who have "come back" certainly don't approach the number leaving.  If anything, the Clone Wars being added is going to do the most to help the game stay relevant - IE., I doubt X-Wing going away or anything like that, but it certainly took a big hit with the 2nd edition release.

X-Wing, of course, was large enough it could afford to take that hit, and the new 7-faction meta may over time keep the game growing larger than it ever was before, eventually.

I just don't think Armada has the kind of market saturation to take the same kind of hit, though, and survive it.

screw-you-guys-im-going-home.jpg

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Perhaps the squadron game could do with a reworking to make it faster and more streamlined... Its fine the way it is but heavy squad matchup do tend to get bogged down a tad... A great many of the objectives are pretty bad for second player, those could definitely be reworked...

We likely don't need a complete and full re working of armada, but we could use a little work.

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2 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

I just assumed it would always have an offline option. obviously you'd need to update every so often but ya, saying "no app ever" because you don't want to use a computer seems a bit extreme. /shrug, I'd also argue that A LOT of people quit x-wing 2.0 for A LOT of reasons beyond the "THEY'RE USING THE INTERNETS!" argument. I think the cost of those box sets was one of the craziest aspects, i was looking at nearly 300 to update my fights to the current system and that wasn't going to happen for a game that I hadn't played in nearly 2 years anyway (not like i was the target audience). 

There's lots of drawbacks to "starting afresh" with a 2.0, and it should never be taken lightly in any aspects...  You have to, essentially, be willing to say "things only get worse from here" if you don't do it, before you pull that design trigger... 

 

I mean, we get a first hand look at the complaints of what happened in the leadup to and the release thereof, of X Wing 2.0...   It'd be folly to not assume that Armada would essenitally follow the same footprint...  There wouldn't just be an ap, there'd be a new core set.  There wouldn't be total conversions of kits, there'd be piecemeal additions.  There wouldn't be a comprehensive way to update everything, you'd get a kit that only did partials and you'd need multiple kits for most of your partials...

 

Its riddled with issues - both good and bad - and I am certainly, 1000% convinced that we're not in the place to do this, design or gameplay wise.  Sure, in the future, I'll have less of an issue with it - but there are so many aspects still unexplored within the game, mechanics wise, that we'd be leaving things behind to start afresh.

We're simply not there yet, and any murmerings of slow release schedules to be the end of the game, are, frankly, a little premature.  This is not the same as Conquest or Netrunner, with the IP holders cancelling agreements, this is a premier IP with a premier level of support - there is more coming, and more down the road, we're just patient because that pays for better (if not good) design implementation than most other systems.

 

The only Star Wars game to have been shut down, was basically not concealed it would happen.   People were told when they were making the last cycle that it would be the last cycle and when it came around, it was...  Even with FFGs low communication levels, they still give that sort of thing some measure...

 

And I mean, there's stuff I'd love to see in a 2.0.  Stuff that I've already assigned into my community edition when/if its ever needed...  But its still delightfully premature.

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2 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Perhaps the squadron game could do with a reworking to make it faster and more streamlined... Its fine the way it is but heavy squad matchup do tend to get bogged down a tad... A great many of the objectives are pretty bad for second player, those could definitely be reworked...

We likely don't need a complete and full re working of armada, but we could use a little work.

My point is, we're getting  alittle work through FAQs and such.

Anything more than that, is a full reworking, with all the associated penalties, costs and dreams going forward.

 

In this business, there is no middle ground.

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6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

There's lots of drawbacks to "starting afresh" with a 2.0, and it should never be taken lightly in any aspects...  You have to, essentially, be willing to say "things only get worse from here" if you don't do it, before you pull that design trigger... 

 

I mean, we get a first hand look at the complaints of what happened in the leadup to and the release thereof, of X Wing 2.0...   It'd be folly to not assume that Armada would essenitally follow the same footprint...  There wouldn't just be an ap, there'd be a new core set.  There wouldn't be total conversions of kits, there'd be piecemeal additions.  There wouldn't be a comprehensive way to update everything, you'd get a kit that only did partials and you'd need multiple kits for most of your partials...

 

Its riddled with issues - both good and bad - and I am certainly, 1000% convinced that we're not in the place to do this, design or gameplay wise.  Sure, in the future, I'll have less of an issue with it - but there are so many aspects still unexplored within the game, mechanics wise, that we'd be leaving things behind to start afresh.

We're simply not there yet, and any murmerings of slow release schedules to be the end of the game, are, frankly, a little premature.  This is not the same as Conquest or Netrunner, with the IP holders cancelling agreements, this is a premier IP with a premier level of support - there is more coming, and more down the road, we're just patient because that pays for better (if not good) design implementation than most other systems.

 

The only Star Wars game to have been shut down, was basically not concealed it would happen.   People were told when they were making the last cycle that it would be the last cycle and when it came around, it was...  Even with FFGs low communication levels, they still give that sort of thing some measure...

 

And I mean, there's stuff I'd love to see in a 2.0.  Stuff that I've already assigned into my community edition when/if its ever needed...  But its still delightfully premature.

Woah there, I was just talking about an app. at no point do i think this game needs a 2.0. The FAQ's are fine (aside from XI-7s) and the points are "fine" though I do think the vic comes from the before times when ships apparently couldn't steer, it needs another tic at 2 and a couple better titles that drop upgrade costs (like the A-wing/defender in X-wing)

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Just now, dominosfleet said:

Woah there, I was just talking about an app. at no point do i think this game needs a 2.0. The FAQ's are fine (aside from XI-7s) and the points are "fine" though I do think the vic comes from the before times when ships apparently couldn't steer, it needs another tic at 2 and a couple better titles that drop upgrade costs (like the A-wing/defender in X-wing)

And unfortunately, given the direct similarities between the change of integration between XWing and the App...  We wouldn't get an App without a 2.0

The App integration into IA was a completely different measure for a completely different reason...

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Do we have actual numbers beyond Anecdotes for this?

No.  However, from my experience locally (Colorado) and talking to people in Texas and across the East Coast of the US, attendance at local game nights and enthusiasm about the game generally went up.  When people left, it was because they did not like the game anymore and were realizing this because of 2.0s high cost of entry (As mentioned earlier), or finally, because they did not like the app (although these were small in number compared to the other two).

I'm also not advocating a total conversion to 2.0, or aggressive points change.  In essence, they would happen twice a year at most, and only with 5-10 cards overall, not broad sweeping changes.  I agree, we do not need a full 2.0 - but a change to some points costs and upgrade slots would be welcome.

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Casually and colloquially, its really easy to do.

Legitimately and Business-ly...  Not so much.  How do you make money from it?  

They've tried numerous ways to impliment changed-text cards out in the wild, and none of the ways they've found so far has been "remotely universally accepted".

Its...  disappointing.   But I think we'll just ahve to live with it for a good while longer.

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2 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

No.  However, from my experience locally (Colorado) and talking to people in Texas and across the East Coast of the US, attendance at local game nights and enthusiasm about the game generally went up.  When people left, it was because they did not like the game anymore and were realizing this because of 2.0s high cost of entry (As mentioned earlier), or finally, because they did not like the app (although these were small in number compared to the other two).

I'm also not advocating a total conversion to 2.0, or aggressive points change.  In essence, they would happen twice a year at most, and only with 5-10 cards overall, not broad sweeping changes.  I agree, we do not need a full 2.0 - but a change to some points costs and upgrade slots would be welcome.

"No, however from the accumulation of all of my anecdotes I feel firm in my assertion that what I'm predicting is 100% correct"

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